Curse

lutz · Nov 04, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

As many of you (may) know, a big problem has been prevalent in GvG lately. Thsi has to do with GvG "smurfing", or basically high-ranked guilds' players creating low ranked guilds, having easy competition - "sandbagging", essentially.

Well, this poses a huge problem as there are a lot of these nowadays, and people who aren't so great at GvG can't get much better - you pretty much get rolled in 4 minutes or less, and you have no idea what's going on. Speccing top 100 matches won't do you much good as t100 GvG is nowhere near the regular GvG you encounter on a daily basis at ratings 1000-1100.

Yes, I understand I'm not good at PvP, and I want to get better, and so do a lot of people I know, but facing incredibly high level guilds on different accounts and as guests is ridiculous. Therefore, I suggest a solution:

Most (if not all) of the time, guild smurfs consist of 4 members on "secondary accounts", and 4 guests on their main accounts.
What I'm suggesting is that, instead of basing matchups on the guild's rating, instead take the rating of all the party's guilds and average them together, and base the matchup on that rating, instead. So for example, if you had a new guild of 4 people, with 4 guests from a 1600 rating guild, your guild would technically have a rating of 1300 (still no Champ points, though) and you would face a guild with around 1300 rating. Obviously, it isn't perfect, and people will still find ways around it, but it's probably something that will discourage smurfing.

I'm tired of playing with people who are t100. Go play t100, let the 1000-1100 range build, and stop messing with the ladder.

Thoughts?

Julia-Louis Dreyfus · Nov 04, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

might worked, but its still hilarious going "oh their rating is just like ours" then get smashed in 2 mins, classic. not much fun when it happens over and over though

Torsen1 · Nov 04, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Many of the top guilds on the ladder smurf simply so they can get a ladder match without waiting 20 minutes.
Other smurf teams you might run into are guilds with a large number of guests, or trying different builds that they aren't comfortable playing on their main guild.
Whether or not these are valid reasons to play on a guild ranked lower than it should be is up to you. In any case, the importance of the ladder has highly diminished, and fighting a smurf vs. a real guild means a difference of 1-3 in the rating loss taken.
Your solution doesn't address the need to lower your guilds' rating to get a match either. It just encourages the use of 2nd accounts even more.

-Loki- · Nov 04, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Most of the smurfs you are running across are pugs, not smurfs. They are pugging GvG so they can play the most fun PvP portion of this game with less stress and with other people they know.

Bankai · Nov 04, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

'Lately'? Actually, from what I've seen the number of smurfs has actually been reduced.

There is no problem with Smurfs. IMO.

Avarre · Nov 04, 2007, 09:24 AM // 09:24

So guys, r u iQ?

Crimso · Nov 04, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

'Lately'? Actually, from what I've seen the number of smurfs has actually been reduced.

There is no problem with Smurfs. IMO.

What about guilds that have just started GvGing, they think they are fighting other players around their own skill and in the 1st match they get completely defeated and they end up being discouraged from competing in GvG. Thats the problem with Smurfs.

Div · Nov 04, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So guys, r u iQ?

Yeah iQ and all their smurfs make noobs like me not be able to get good practice in low level gvgs

BlackEagle · Nov 04, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

I don't see it to be a massive problem. It's annnoying getting a -3 because they're lower ranked than you, when it would have been a -0 if they hadn't been smurfing, but it's still only 3 rating, and hopefully you're getting the experience of playing better players and hopefully improving.

I personally don't see an awful lot wrong with it, and if so, your solution wouldn't really help or work as intented, and I don't think there is a way you can solve it without having a huge effect on normal gvg (limiting guest numbers etc.)

*lemming* · Nov 04, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

In the long run, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Burst Cancel · Nov 04, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Not wanting to play the top players is an odd attitude I only see in GW. In literally every other competitive activity that I do, both real-life and in other video games, people are scrambling for the chance to play against - and learn from - the best.

It is axiomatic that by far the fastest way to learn anything is to play with/against the best people out there - this is true in fighting games, in FPS, in martial arts, etc. It doesn't matter if you get destroyed in seconds - you see how they're destroying you, which allows you to figure out two things: 1) how to avoid being destroyed in the future, and 2) how to destroy others. You can't learn by playing against people of your own level, because they suck just as much as you. You'll win more often, but you won't learn a damn thing.

The only time playing top players becomes a waste of time is when you go in there just trying to win, and not trying to learn anything - in other words, being handed a great opportunity and promptly squandering it.

Viruzzz · Nov 04, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Not wanting to play the top players is an odd attitude I only see in GW. In literally every other competitive activity that I do, both real-life and in other video games, people are scrambling for the chance to play against - and learn from - the best.

It is axiomatic that by far the fastest way to learn anything is to play with/against the best people out there - this is true in fighting games, in FPS, in martial arts, etc. It doesn't matter if you get destroyed in seconds - you see how they're destroying you, which allows you to figure out two things: 1) how to avoid being destroyed in the future, and 2) how to destroy others. You can't learn by playing against people of your own level, because they suck just as much as you. You'll win more often, but you won't learn a damn thing.

The only time playing top players becomes a waste of time is when you go in there just trying to win, and not trying to learn anything - in other words, being handed a great opportunity and promptly squandering it.

i disagree.
If you are bad at the game, and you play the best then you wont learn anything, they will beat you so quick and so hard you wont know how they did it, and thus wont learn anything from it.
Fighting someone who's new to the game and not very good at its easy, it will take a long time before they catch on to how you are killing them, and start playing like a medium skilled player, and thats when you can start playing like you would against a decent player.

Zeek Aran · Nov 04, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Sounds like Halo 2 Live, de-rankers. ;-; Those bastages ruiin everything.

Burst Cancel · Nov 04, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viruzzz

i disagree.
If you are bad at the game, and you play the best then you wont learn anything, they will beat you so quick and so hard you wont know how they did it, and thus wont learn anything from it.
Fighting someone who's new to the game and not very good at its easy, it will take a long time before they catch on to how you are killing them, and start playing like a medium skilled player, and thats when you can start playing like you would against a decent player.

If you aren't learning anything from being beat into the ground, you aren't trying hard enough to learn. With all the tools GW gives you (damage monitor, obs mode, etc.), and all the information at your disposal (forums, wiki, other players, etc.), if you can't figure out why you party wipe in 4 minutes I really don't know what to tell you. You know what skills they use, you know (in a general sense) how they used them, and you can see how they're organized on the field. That tells you a lot already - make note of it and work from there.

Finally, being able to benefit from top players is a matter of understanding - you don't actually need much experience to learn something from being crushed. Being familiar with theory is enough to get started, and that takes minimal effort. Also, you'd be surprised how many people can't instantly recognize skills from the icons, or who don't know basic mechanics (e.g., critical hits on kiting targets), or who can't even play their character at a basic level (e.g., weapon swapping, kiting, skill activation without looking at skillbar, etc.). You can learn all of that stuff without a single iota of GvG experience, and most of it comes down to rote practice. If you can't be bothered to even do that, then I'm frankly not surprised that you complain about being crushed.

I'll pull another example from fighting games. When you first start playing, a top player is likely to double-perfect you in 10s every match, 20 matches in a row. You probably don't have anywhere near her reaction speeds, you don't have her execution (read: muscle memory), and you don't have her extensive knowledge of situational tactics, counter-tactics, and general shenanigans. However, what you can do before you even step foot in the arcade the first time is learn everything about the characters and their moves. Figure out which moves are overheads, which moves hit low, which moves have special properties (x frames of invincibility, superarmor, auto-parry, etc.). You can also begin to get a general feeling of when moves should be used, and which moves are really good - some moves have big hitboxes, some moves are really fast, some moves can be cancelled into a lot of different things. You can figure all of this stuff out without playing anyone; and knowing all of this is exactly what prepares you to learn something from getting your face smashed in by a top-10 player.

I don't claim that you can go into a GvG match completely ignorant about GW and expect to learn anything. A drooling idiot can't be taught a damn thing by anyone until that blank stare is wiped off his face and some semblance of mediocrity is beaten into him. Reaching that requisite level of mediocrity in GW can be done on your own and is therefore entirely your responsibility.

Trub · Nov 04, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Burst Cancel wrote:

Quote:

I don't claim that you can go into a GvG match completely ignorant about GW and expect to learn anything. A drooling idiot can't be taught a damn thing by anyone until that blank stare is wiped off his face and some semblance of mediocrity is beaten into him. Reaching that requisite level of mediocrity in GW can be done on your own and is therefore entirely your responsibility.

Your post is well thought out, and to the point.
I agree with all you have written.
The smurfs that some of the guilds are running won't hurt your chances if you play effectively.
It has become apparent that alot of the 'newer' GW players are expecting an 'insta-win' just because their guild is in a match.
Sorry guys, it don't work that way.
The winners are the players that take the time to explore the tactics that are used in the current meta....and work together to counter it.
You can't expect the Ursan button to appear on your bar in GvG!
So, pop into OBs every now and again....watch closely..and for petes sake..listen to your team leaders ><
________________
PvP Helpful Hint #5: I aint iQ...

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 04, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

-3's is peanuts compared to the old ladder and -24's

Ideally if you can't learn anything from any given match then something is wrong, no matter if the match is 20 minutes or 4minutes. Being able to watch your own gvgs now is great for the lowered ranked guilds at the end of the ladder. I remember when I first started out, just getting pummeled into the ground, game after game and only having the opportunity to learn and swallow what we saw go wrong during the match. From the current player base that is left still playing GvG all I hear is quick to quit and put blame on the system which is easier now than it was before.

Dzan · Nov 04, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

It seems odd to be overly concerned about rating when you're so lowly ranked. Ladder position doesn't matter anymore except for people just over 1200 rating or people just under 1200 rating. If you aren't in either of those zones, it doesn't really matter whether you get -1 for playing a guild or -3 from playing their pug/smurf.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 04, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

I'm tired of playing with people who are t100. Go play t100, let the 1000-1100 range build, and stop messing with the ladder.

Thoughts?

Stop crying and make an effort to get better yourself..

Bankai · Nov 04, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Most of the smurfs you are running across are pugs, not smurfs. They are pugging GvG so they can play the most fun PvP portion of this game with less stress and with other people they know.

BTW, this post is the answer to the question. PuGs don't give a shit about rating, but a lot of the time they use new guilds. And since you now get next to nil rating from winning a match, they linger around the lower ranks for a long time.

Akaraxle · Nov 04, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

This is not an issue, but a feature. A few months ago, ANet decided to promote smurfing/pugging and cluttering the ladder with dead/sold guilds.

The saddest thing about this, coupled with the declining playerbase, is that guilds lose more and more identity.