Curse

zwei2stein · Dec 17, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

as preface: i actually seek constructive ideas, I've read Tyiuris thread, but somehow its does not address my issue.

So here is problem: How to progress in HA (both in players skill and rank) without playing what experienced people consider lame stuff (i.e. currently zergway)?

My idea was to get to (low/un)ranked groups with strong teambuild. Now, i am fairly inexperienced (but well educated in what skills work and what don't) to start my own groups, and trying to do that proved to be quite frustrating because most of the time you get people who don't seem to want to win (i.e. silently ignoring build requests and continuing to ping stuff like splinter barrage.) or who require all builds to come from pvx wiki (and be part of teambuild, preferably called -way).

Getting desperate and joining zergway teams didn't help much, a bit of fame, but not much fun. Mostly because you have to fit template 100% not try out anything new (i've had people freak out because i stubbed one of (imho redundant) blows in bar with bulls strike, which actually gets kills (or at least for me, maybe its stupid choice ... facepalm?) ).

So that leaves joining balanced low/unranked groups ... which just don't seem to form anymore, last time i sat in id1, about two hours passed between GFLs of unranked balanced teams. There is occasional blind invite, ofc, which contributed a lot to my bad build screenshot collection.

I have had most success so far with playing monk which is admittedly class i am least proficient at and don't really enjoy that much.

So, is there anything one can do that does not consist of hours of idling in town?

(fyi, UAS, R3... )

(oh and, whats with those McTigers?)

Winterclaw · Dec 17, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Make friends or join a guild that does HA. I'm sorry but those are problably your best options. Another thing you can try do is go to INT because the local districts seem to be empty nowaday. Last time I went to the ints, they had people in them.

HA is dying and I don't think Anet cares anymore.

xx hells paladin xx · Dec 17, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

My guild would be more than willing to help u as long as u listened and didnt complain about builds=P

Stupid Shizno · Dec 17, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

complain about builds? which means you dont like constructive critisms? which leads to imply you dont try new things =]

xx hells paladin xx · Dec 17, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupid Shizno

complain about builds? which means you dont like constructive critisms? which leads to imply you dont try new things =]

Well if someone wants help and we are trying to help and they dont listen and they say they dont like the build they wanna run this it realy gets on my nerves.

elektra_lucia · Dec 17, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I played with one of the McTiggers, decent player actually :]. If you mean why do they all idle there? Why not... I think it's someone that has lots of accounts and computers although I never thought to ask. Bland question general answer.

People are stubborn. You're going to find that with higher ranks too, it merely depends on the people. Rank6's which think they're good are the most stubborn from my experience.

You just have to put up with peoples behaviour. There isn't really much advice anyone can give except be patient, play with friends, make friends etc etc. I'm sure you've read it all before, if not - try doing so.

As for actually improving self skill. Hmm, I tried to make a thread on that (it was long so I don't expect many would of read it all). A new players biggest problem will be awareness and multi tasking, playing mesmer or monk will help considerably for that (warrior too). I wouldn't suggest monking (unless you join groups) because playing mesmer or warrior enables you to make your own groups easier.

You could run a build idea through us too. Could be in this thread or in a build section of forum. Then at least if people argue with you in game you can point to the thread and show all the people supporting your case. Might not mean much, worth a shot.

Kyp Jade · Dec 17, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

probably the best method, which is the method i use, is to form your own teams. At first you will have to go to observer and copy a build from someone. I myself got first into FoC spike before nerf, that was fun (spike out entire iway team on unholy temples because they ball up in stairs), later moved to bloodspike since it was easier to run. The only thing I got out of this was fame.

And I regret it, but I did gain some useful things from scrub builds.
I learned map tactics, and how to handle a team
Target calling
Just about every useful thing you can think of.
HA is 40% Buildwars, 40% Skill, 20% Gankfest

This was a long time ago, now I will only play a balanced build, simply because
its more fun
its more versatile
when the right ppl go on the right spots the win or loss is entirely in your (tactic callers) hands

What I do NOT suggest, is copying a high ranks build, and then trying to go with it. Build design is somewhat tricky, and half of a match is determining how you want your build to face off against someone elses.

When I design a build, I do so with SPECIFIC scenarios planned out. This is because you cannot design a build to do everything. My current build for example, is designed to be strong against meta balanced builds, but consequently, is weak against zergway. This in no way means I always lose to zergway, I carefully planned out ahead of time who does what in the zergway matches. I made this design decision because I care more about playing in the fun matches, the ones vs balance, than I do most matches.

How does any of that relate to a new player getting into HA? It means, if you do not want to play zerg, and are not skillful enough yet to adapt a build to something it is not meant to play against, then you play a build that handicaps zerg. Several of these already exist, the strongest being heavy degen. (I dont mean small degen like tainted, I mean HEAVY degen, iway teams explode because they dont have strong partyheals). Start from an already working build template, hexes destroy zerg, and then adapt it to your needs as you learn how the build works.

Just remember that almost half of winning for newer players comes from what build you are running, it is very much rock paper scissors.

TaCktiX · Dec 17, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I know I'm going to get defamed like crazy for saying this, but run a scrub build for a few fame runs. With those builds, you don't have to pay an ounce of attention to your own party, so you can learn positioning, how the other team approaches you, target-calling, etc. I played pre-nerf Rit Spike all the way to R4, and haven't touched a scrub build since.

The problem with trying to roll balanced in the early ranks is information overload. You don't know enough about the maps or other teams to approach either confidently, and then you need to worry about whether or not your team is doing its job and whether your target-calling (or the target caller) is good. It's too much to do all at once, and you WILL get very frustrated. After just so many UW-and-out's, you'll seriously feel like quitting HA.

And I do agree with you that anything other than balanced is very very boring. Sad thing that a lot of my guildies are convinced that Zergway will remain fun.

zwei2stein · Dec 18, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Make friends or join a guild that does HA. I'm sorry but those are problably your best options. Another thing you can try do is go to INT because the local districts seem to be empty nowaday. Last time I went to the ints, they had people in them.

Ah, well i was always aiming for international districts. Making friends ... hmm, my current social circle is not that much interested in pvp and without grouping i cant really make friends (most of -way people don't make you want to pm them later anyway ...)

Joining guild could be option, but i rarely see recruiters going for anything less that r5-6 people. Plus it would probably require some dedication expectations (mind it, i have fulltime job ...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I played with one of the McTiggers, decent player actually :]. If you mean why do they all idle there? Why not... I think it's someone that has lots of accounts and computers although I never thought to ask. Bland question general answer.

I guessed as much, but ty for answer anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

As for actually improving self skill. Hmm, I tried to make a thread on that (it was long so I don't expect many would of read it all). A new players biggest problem will be awareness and multi tasking, playing mesmer or monk will help considerably for that (warrior too). I wouldn't suggest monking (unless you join groups) because playing mesmer or warrior enables you to make your own groups easier.

You could run a build idea through us too. Could be in this thread or in a build section of forum. Then at least if people argue with you in game you can point to the thread and show all the people supporting your case. Might not mean much, worth a shot.

Ill look up that thread, ty.

I think i can multitask good enough ... until i get pressured (i.e get focused on by enemy, then all concentration goes to hell and it turns to blind kite-n-cast). Could work more on that...

About posting build ideas here, could try that ... lets see if that would work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

And I regret it, but I did gain some useful things from scrub builds.
I learned map tactics, and how to handle a team
Target calling
Just about every useful thing you can think of.
HA is 40% Buildwars, 40% Skill, 20% Gankfest

This was a long time ago, now I will only play a balanced build, simply because
its more fun
its more versatile
when the right ppl go on the right spots the win or loss is entirely in your (tactic callers) hands

... (snip about builds) ....

I don't think that scrub builds can teach me much ... they rarely get beyond 2nd-3rd map to maps where advanced tactics is important-ish (like running relics...). Neither does it help much on calling (people just don't follow ..., or warrior is being called... ) or skill selection and fame is not that good. Basically, no progress. And if i get no progress and its not fun...

Build tips, I guess I understand what you mean, do not try anything too fancy and rather go for raw power on low levels ... that and copying observer mode builds that can be run easily.

Kyp Jade · Dec 18, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Before I post again, I want to state that my stance on any iway type build is completly against it, it prevents grouping for any scrub build other than iway, simply because iway is much much stronger than anything else for players at that skill level. In that since it is very imba, and definatly needs a look at...

In defense of scrubway, you dont get past the first few maps until you learn how to play. The reason scrubs run -way is because they can AT LEAST win the first few maps. It sounds to me that you fit into the group of people that want to jump straight from being new into good, without putting any work into yourself.

I will not say any names, but last night I ran into the same smiteball team two or three times, this is another of the -way builds, and they werent very good at it, but in thier defense I run a CG ranger so they pretty much couldnt do anything without adapting thier tactics. Since I had no opposing party 3x I one of them and explained what to do in situations where your standard tactic doesnt work. THe next time we faced them they did not ball up all in one group, they split in two groups. Much much better except they still lose, they needed to work on thier spikes a bit. But, if anything

not all scrubway players are stuck up assholes, there are pleanty as in the example above that just like to play
they DID learn something from thier experiences, and started adjusting thier tactics when they needed too.

(although there are better build choices than smiteball in todays meta, and most are far easier to run)

also, there are a lot of tactics to be seen in the first few maps, but they are far more subtle than running relics or capping shrines. And you really only see these tactics in the 1v1 matches against to really good balance teams. You see them ALL the time in gvg matches however, even at low levels tactics of this sort are required to play the game.

-Floating your mesmer or having him camp target
-Having mesmer forget monks and systematically stop every defensive skill
-Running midline defense and using it in unconventional ways like snaring monks on altar matches even if they arent under fire.
-blah

you dont need these all the time, but they are the small things you learn after a clean beating from someone else, these tactics are also something pugs generally fail at, no matter the rank. Guilds and Friends groups generally pull these things off more and are succesful in the 1v1s more often simply because of this.

Winterclaw · Dec 18, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Zwi, if no one is in ints, go local and vice versa. Also try to learn when people are more likely to be there. Worse comes to worse, try forming a party at temple of balth. I think there's a LFG forum for pvpers so you can try posting there. If you want to find a guild, there's a recruitment forum you can look through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

As for actually improving self skill. Hmm, I tried to make a thread on that (it was long so I don't expect many would of read it all).

I read that post and liked it up until the end, at which point I forgot completely after the thread.

6am3 Fana71c · Dec 19, 2007, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

(oh and, whats with those McTigers?)

You mean Adam? He just has several accounts and idles in HA 24/7. Not much more to add.

And yeah, we are in the same trouble here. I'm also low rank but I don't want to get fame by running scrubway. My advice is to make your own group (even if it fails, you still learn on your mistakes) and add every good player you encounter to your friends list.
Btw, I think elektra said that playing a warrior is a good way to start. It probably is, but most people ask that warriors be the callers, which is somewhat difficult when you are still low rank and not sufficiently exp'd. So I'd suggest sticking to RC monk, I <3 it