Curse

Kyp Jade · Dec 27, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Several things about the HoH relic run are very.. annoying at best, but in all honesty, the map design itself is unfair and flawed. I've really not had a problem with them because a lot of teams are not coordinated enough to pull these off, but I use them from time to time and it is still unfair.

First and foremost, last to cap gains the lead, this is pretty much backwards. Change it to first to cap wins, and if you really want to keep the game interesting, put in a conditional first to twenty wins.

Second, Blue has an unfair advantage with map design. Since the match is almots always decided in the last minute by the who capped last situation, you want to lock down a runner. WHy even bother with something that takes skill and effort, when you can three man block the relic on red and yellow. Yes they can aoe you do death, but you still win because they are too far behind to catch up and win. If you dont know what Im talking about here dont post because you dont play in HoH enough. This can be solved by moving the relic just a little further forward, or by making the bridge wider.

Finally, fix the bug where players can make it look like everyone on thier team is carrying a relic. This leads to a lot of confusion in the last minute of the match when they all are running to the center and you cant be certain who has it. And keeping track of which two runners have the 'real' relic doesnt generally work when they use this exploit, because someone else runs the last relic while your busy blocking the two people that ran relics the whole match

therangereminem · Dec 28, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

ok frist things last to cap is right , if you where tied in any game being a sport last one to score wins this is the way behind he last cap wins ideal.

relics runs are not messed up in any way ecept the double relic glitch,

undeadgun · Dec 28, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

17 seconds a relic without snare or block from the point you pick up one and run to the alter. count the time right, send your snare and team to bodyblock or snare the enemies at last min(if you are doing power run), pretty simple. i dont see its messed up at all

blood seeker · Dec 28, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

the only problem with relic run is the huge amount of unfair ganking going on with it, wich often results in the team who posed the lowest threat actually win (heroway etc.)

Kyp Jade · Dec 28, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Ok, I will explain this as I have never bothered to take a screenshot of this tactic. And yes, the time is the same for all three teams to reach the center, however, for the red and yellow team, thier relic is on the bridge. This bridge can be 3 man bodyblocked, completly preventing anyone from even picking up the relic. However the blue relic is out in the open. All it takes to fix that is to widen the bridge to the same length as the hallway.

Killed u man · Dec 29, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Kyp, don't even try to explain to these guys. It's always the same bs here on guru

Instead of first investigating, actually observing several times, mayby even using your brain for once, people still prefer to randomly post here, trying to proof you wrong, with their once-in-HoH-experience.

I also didn't screen it myself, cuz I never really tought it was THAT much of an issue, since the holding team has advantage on EVERY map, why not on Relic Run aswel

People, next time there is a 1v1 Relic Run in HoH, between good teams, go observe it. The blue team will mostlikely body block Red bridge with 3 people, and the only way of getting a relic trough is: trying to shadowstep trough, and then drop-pass it. (Or kill them) whilst to bodyblock blue's relic, you would prolly need around 6-7 people across the intire hall-way. (I've seen it before, in full ganks)

Cap Points: Blue base is shorter to center, giving them a huge advantage every time they spawn/need to go back to defend base.

Relic Run: Relic Body Block

Holding: Free 1 point in the beginning of every game

Div · Dec 29, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by therangereminem

ok frist things last to cap is right , if you where tied in any game being a sport last one to score wins this is the way behind he last cap wins ideal.

Does not compute. Last time I checked, basketball, football, soccer, whatnot go to overtimes and either result in ties (regular season) or more overtimes (playoffs). Since when does getting the last score win in a tie situation?

To OP: The 3-man block is pretty unfair, I've done it a fair amount and had it done to me a fair amount, especially in 1v1 situations. That needs to get fixed. More importantly, the multiple relics is stupid.

Lord Natural · Dec 29, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

The concept is just flawed. You've got 3 teams half-assing it until the final minute or so when it's time to come back from afk. It isn't exciting to play or watch. The traditional altar, love it or hate it (but love it! seriously), was at least intense, win or lose. Maybe there was the same relax until the final few mins philosophy in some cases, but at least those few minutes were frantic and fun. So they've appealed to the masses with these objectives, but sapped the fun out in doing so. But hey, this is Guild Wars not Fun Wars... apparently.

Thorondor Port · Dec 30, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

The traditional altar, love it or hate it (but love it! seriously), was at least intense, win or lose.

I loved the old altar cap

Graphik Desine · Dec 30, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

lawl. i suppose this is the relic run rant? i would love to contribute. i like HA rants. i agree kyp. it is kind of sad that nobody really pays attention to the construction of this map--and how biased it is. and there is nothing anyone can do to change my opinion. i always thought last relic touch wins was odd...but that is what was given to us so somehow we have to make use of it--old map, new game. it is hard to teach and old dog new tricks ._.

[even though this is a different crowd on a community forum, there still exist the players from the shadows of HA here. just take what you want from each post, and if mine helps you get through "it," good! if it doesn't, at least i tried. (and btw, i did try

)]

okay, so map construction flaw PLUS the fact that some players see such and so dirty tactic and start using that for their team---sort of a "monkey see, monkey do" way to play a game. "if i do this too, my team will win because i saw these other teams doing it and they won." now that everyone does it, how can it be stopped? it can't unless parts of the map change. then builds and strategy will change, just as it did when relic run got introduced. this is a good way to teach an old dog a slightly new trick. hate to be cornball, but it is such a good cliche.

especially the relic runs are flawed with the body blocking (yes, how in the world can 1 person body block a runner? with no snares? /stuck and still no results until 10 sec later but you have 7 seconds to walk from the altar stairs to the altar. fail...ouch...last capped won) and just overall letting alliance win and letting buddies win----and ganging up on one team. headache for what?

the concept of teams LETTING other teams win because someone on another team needs x fame to next rank, or because someone else has sympathy for another that plays under their skill level, or idolizes others for how much fame they apparently have so they just resign spike or get hopes down fast to let the others win because they deserve to win, right? (wrong). the way some teams (and players) carry themselves need to improve...and the way this can happen is to start with one's self. including self. but it is even harder to improve everyone else around self... :/

definitely there is something majorly WRONG in that map: if your guild (or yourself) is not allied (or "knows people") you're destined to fail; if your guild is allied (or "know people") you have an advantage and will be most likely to win. nothing new here. but the concept is very wrong. teams should win because of their tactics, skill, etc. not slide-by wins.

kyp, if you are looking for an answer to the problems you have been experiencing, i guess the best way to conquer the map strategy wise is to play with people that will listen to you or your tactics:

try changing things up a little with the people you DO know. get people to listen and take you seriously or find different combo of people that will. at least start with people that give a crap to win. not the ones that just sit there in vent and wait for fame to rack up.

get them back in the game. bring them back to life. i am being serious.

i know everyone differs, but i am not all just "solution and no HA experience." i did have the experience, just a very BAD sudden epidemic of friends who lack the urge to win (must have gotten caught up in fame farm and cookie cutting? who knows). the solution to my HA problem with tactics on relic and cap maps especially is that i just need to play more frequently (like i used to) and find players that are aggressive with their build but not the aggressive type of "blame other people for loss" type, get along with each other, etc etc. and best of all LISTEN. i will find this eventually. just not now.

why? a bit ago my observation is that i had not been playing with the right combination of players---found a lot of "blame the monks with no monking experience to actually be correct"/blaming every little thing possible on anyone else, yelling in the mic at those players and sounding really silly, slacking off, etc---kind of "sit back and let the others do the playing so i can get fame, but don't really wanna talk to the rest of ya, i'm just here for myself" attitudes, and in general others not letting people play the characters they are actually best at---neither very uplifting nor winner atmosphere. usually does not go past underworld or the fetid river. i don't know. maybe the future holds better for me, but for now---i feel things are very messed up in the HA dept ._.

lol. time for pve for now i guess...and come back to HA later. when maybe slack off and arrogant attitudes evaporate? there is always pve. i am liking that more and more every new day that comes.

again. if i contributed in a good way, good. if i did not, i apologize sincerely. i am very tired and tired leads to some negativity. so...i'll admit that right now.
but really, kyp. just think about whether or not the people you like playing with are actually driven and listen (+do stuff properly)---and you never know, the map might change. it really needs to be fixed. just not enough people agree with you. most don't care what the map is like (say oh well and go back in) or don't play HA enough...BUT i'm with ya. if that means anything. nope, probably not

masta_yoda · Dec 30, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

I am pretty sure you need 4 people to do a complete bridge block although 3 could give you a hard time if your snared on top of it.

Tbh i really dont see how first to cap during a tie will solve the problem. It exactly the same the last to cap exact backwards =.=, meaning people will just try cap first instead of last.

What i think is the actual map itself is flawed. For e.g. in cap points blues base is the closest to the altar but also the most vulnerable to be ganked since they are the closest base to the opposing teams. Red and yellow will almost never go to the other bases because they wait for each other to take the initiative to split which never happens, because the central shrine is what wins matches.
Therefore when people do take the initative to split, it would always be the blue team who gets ganked since they are the closest. But if the Red and yellow team split each other, blue can just feed on the central shrine. So what they should do is make the hoh layout like an equilateral triangle so maybe teams would actually try split of then wait for other teams to take intiative to split.

Ok lets just say blue has an advantage on relic, but in cap and altar i reckon red and yellow have a bigger advantage, given the nature of players and gameplay in ha blue team will always be the one ganked if a team cannot win.

'killed u man' it probably would not make a difference if blues ghost spawned on the altar or not, because there gate at the altar is so close they would probably cap before any of the others. Tbh i think your just looking at this issue from one point where blue has advantaged.

elektra_lucia · Dec 30, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Graphik Desine -

Tired leads to insanity, which leads to being interesting/creative - which is good? Get some money and then you will become eccentric

.

Players won't really change, they're not that competitive in MMORPG's (or whatever you'd call guildwars). They don't have the attitude of a profession in whatever. I'm sure there's some, but not really many to speak of.

The best we can hope for is for the map to be fixed.

We are never going to get rid of lame builds and such and people will always find ways to exploit something. A-Net not changing things doesn't help...

Hero-way for the win, and I don't mean with n/rts and thumpers

.

Quote:

Ok lets just say blue has an advantage on relic, but in cap and altar i reckon red and yellow have a bigger advantage, given the nature of players and gameplay in ha blue team will always be the one ganked if a team cannot win.

So you've got [GANK] As yellow. [UGLY] as Red. Esoteric Females [EW] As blue. And you think BLUE will always be ganked?

It's dependant on who plays.

Also, what if people don't win enough to get to other maps? Or the game gives relic run after relic run?

That's like saying, UW can give a 10% chance to win for blue, but it's ok because courtyard has 90% chance to win...

Bleh...

Riotgear · Dec 30, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

First-to-cap winning means that if two teams get the same score, the team that hit that score fastest wins. Doesn't that make a bit more sense than the slowest team to achieve a score wins?

Sha Noran · Dec 30, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Relic running should not be a Hall of Heroes objective in a game that frequently lags you to the point where you appear, on your screen, to be in a much different spot than you actually are... which is body blocked all the way back across the map.

Kyp Jade · Dec 30, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphik Desine

kyp, if you are looking for an answer to the problems you have been experiencing, i guess the best way to conquer the map strategy wise is to play with people that will listen to you or your tactics:

Wow did you even read my post, I have no trouble with relic run myself. I was pointing out the severe flaws in the map design. I think you must have just read part 1 where I point out the flaw in last to cap, and completly skip over the rest of my post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

I am pretty sure you need 4 people to do a complete bridge block although 3 could give you a hard time if your snared on top of it.

You actually only need 3, I exploit this often

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

What i think is the actual map itself is flawed. For e.g. in cap points blues base is the closest to the altar but also the most vulnerable to be ganked since they are the closest base to the opposing teams. Red and yellow will almost never go to the other bases because they wait for each other to take the initiative to split which never happens, because the central shrine is what wins matches.

Yes blue does have an advantage, and its actually bigger on cap points because they are closer they have less distance to travel between base and center altar, so it takes much less tiem to defend / recap point. While red/yellow bases are miles away. This means it takes LONGER to defend, and if it is capped away from you LONGER to recap., but, back to relic runs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

Ok lets just say blue has an advantage on relic, but in cap and altar i reckon red and yellow have a bigger advantage, given the nature of players and gameplay in ha blue team will always be the one ganked if a team cannot win.

Due to the nature of players and gameplay in HA, a well recognized guild will always be disadvantaged. Since elektra pointed out gank and ugly, I ask someone to watch observer when they play. Quite often when they play both teams get ganked, (I will say however red chamalee deserves a small amount of respect for the tactics he uses to get around ganks, not all of them work, but I lol at failed ganks, I still do not have much respect for GANK as a whole because of all the trash talk from them)

Lorekeeper · Dec 30, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

its ok that blue team have the advantage, its hard enough for 1 team to defend against 2 in the first place... its the way in which HoH distinguishes the hall holders from the hall invaders. The slight advantage the blue team has on relic runs is not even that influential since capping faster than other teams isnt even something that wins you the game lol (because of the cap last to win mechanic).

if relic run was cap first to win... blue team would have a distinct advantage because their relic spawns closer to the altar than the other 2 teams. But this advantage is offset by the fact that red and yellow can go and slow down blues relic runners. If blue team were to gain a significant lead... red and yellow teams would have to be pretty awful to not reduce the lead. 2 teams worth of snarers and blockers vs 1 teams worth of snare removals... its no competition.

The problem with HoH relic run is that there is no practical way of truly outrunning your opponent like you can in the other relic runs in the rotation (unholy temples and sacred temples), which is an unfortunate side effect of it being a 3 way matchup. In a two team relic run in HoH matches would be far more decisive unless the two teams were very evenly matched in terms of experience and build capability and in both scenarios the best team will most certainly be the one who wins. Which is not always the case now.

Graphik Desine · Dec 31, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Wow did you even read my post, I have no trouble with relic run myself. I was pointing out the severe flaws in the map design. I think you must have just read part 1 where I point out the flaw in last to cap, and completly skip over the rest of my post.

whoa. calm down. you totally did not read my post kyp; i had pointed out several things so i suggest going back and reading it again (after all, it was a lot of typing). i had not even attacked you, which obviously you think i had. i do not believe agreeing is attacking. but if that is the way you treat people that agree with what you say, then that is too bad.

i merely posted problems i found with my experience in players AS WELL AS how everything is presented to us to win--starting with the topic: how relic runs were presented.

it does not matter one way or another if someone posts their own experiences and possibly other ways to look at things. i choose to post my own experiences sometimes because would rather relate that in some way to others' problems--reaching out to them so they understand it is not just them that is having difficulty with something, whether it be small things or the whole picture.

most of the time it isn't JUST one thing--it is many different tiny aspects that contribute to one big bad experience. sometimes it is good to sort the small ones out first, THEN move on to the big ones.

a lot of times great results come from looking at one's own self, or in this case one's own team members.

in case some people did not quite understand what i was saying, the summary of my post was:

*old map was designed [for taking ghost TO altar and nothing more]. old map but with updated concept (ie relic run) hard to fit in properly. thus, teaching old dog new tricks does not always work.

*dirty tactics abundant because of the way the map is presented--[ie ganking and body blocking players and the ghost]. many of these tactics end up in last ditch efforts helping other teams win (which you can't miss playing in halls). there really is no way to remove this unless THE MAP IS CHANGED.

*OPTIONAL: looking at those small points, such as who you are playing with, if players are communicating and executing said plans correctly. this actually plays a huge part in success in halls. if others can hold all day long (especially running relics), obviously there is a slight flaw in either tactic calling or execution of tactics. there really is no other easier or fluffier way to say it.

*conclusion: i may not have said exactly what you wanted to hear, but i do agree that both the map for that AND the "capping last" needs many improvements, but for everything else, just at least TRY to take into consideration both ends of the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Tired leads to insanity, which leads to being interesting/creative - which is good? Get some money and then you will become eccentric

.

become? ...lawl...AM!!!! xD

elektra_lucia · Dec 31, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

If you notice, Kyp quoted a select bit of text where you said that. He rarely ever pugs, and by saying you should play with people you know, you are indeed insulting him. He made the thread, explaining EXACTLY how the map is imbalanced and broken, you proceed to blame it partially on player error. Then you said something similar which was 'read what I said again'.

Also, saying calm down is a dictation, like you are a better person than him, or you have authority. You don't. It's no different to saying 'wow, nerd!'. Why would a normal, intelligent human being care if someone is a nerd? Why would you need them to be a pretty little blonde girl behind the computer screen. Or with the same logic, why would you need them to be calm? In addition, as you can't really judge whether or not he is truly angry, until you can do so, you've done nothing more than start your post off with verbal diarrhoea in hope to secretly piss him off some more, which is what people do when they say 'calm down'.

There is only a few logical routes to that:

One: You said calm down, because you worry about his health and you care for him. If this was the case, you would of read his post to begin with. So that's voided.

Two: You said calm down to try wind him up some more.

Three: You said calm down because you belong to a broken home with broken friends, and the slightest reminder of it makes you panic.

Four: You just felt like saying calm down because it seemed like the best most stupid thing to say at the time.

Killed u man · Dec 31, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

"its ok that blue team have the advantage, its hard enough for 1 team to defend against 2 in the first place... its the way in which HoH distinguishes the hall holders from the hall invaders. The slight advantage the blue team has on relic runs is not even that influential since capping faster than other teams isnt even something that wins you the game lol (because of the cap last to win mechanic)."

I don't get it, if you want the blue team to have such an advantage, than WHY did you want to get old-school holding removed? Funny how U contradict yourself, seeing how often you posted you hated people HOLDING HoH With hyper defensive builds. And now, all of a sudden, you say it's JUSTIFIED for the blue team to have a MAJOR advantage?

Yes, MAJOR, 1 on 1 Relic Run is a guaranteed win for blue, all they need to do is run 3 relics, and then win. (If u use this exploit correctly, you can full-body block in about 40-50 seconds from start) Set-up: /pick up item macro so they can pass it on, go drink some coffee/thea, but hell, atleast it's WAAAY harder than old-school holding, right? I mean, you can ACTUALLY GO AFK. (I've seen it happen, blue holding 3/4 team afk, 3 ppl just bodyblock /pickup relics)

Cap Point, the map is flawed, the game mechanic doesn't work (Once again, the weakest team decides who they gank in the end, without knowing so)

KoTH is junk because of the point system.

Lorekeeper · Dec 31, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

"its ok that blue team have the advantage, its hard enough for 1 team to defend against 2 in the first place... its the way in which HoH distinguishes the hall holders from the hall invaders. The slight advantage the blue team has on relic runs is not even that influential since capping faster than other teams isnt even something that wins you the game lol (because of the cap last to win mechanic)."

I don't get it, if you want the blue team to have such an advantage, than WHY did you want to get old-school holding removed? Funny how U contradict yourself, seeing how often you posted you hated people HOLDING HoH With hyper defensive builds. And now, all of a sudden, you say it's JUSTIFIED for the blue team to have a MAJOR advantage?

Yes, MAJOR, 1 on 1 Relic Run is a guaranteed win for blue, all they need to do is run 3 relics, and then win. (If u use this exploit correctly, you can full-body block in about 40-50 seconds from start) Set-up: /pick up item macro so they can pass it on, go drink some coffee/thea, but hell, atleast it's WAAAY harder than old-school holding, right? I mean, you can ACTUALLY GO AFK. (I've seen it happen, blue holding 3/4 team afk, 3 ppl just bodyblock /pickup relics)

Cap Point, the map is flawed, the game mechanic doesn't work (Once again, the weakest team decides who they gank in the end, without knowing so)

KoTH is junk because of the point system.

what is your major dysfunction? Its almost as if you troll these forums waiting for a post from me and regardless of whether there are any grounds to accuse me of contradictions your radar goes beserk and you post nonstop drivel until your fingers cant take anymore.

1 on 1 relic run is never a certain win for blue team... in fact... given the fact that blue team is positioned squarely in between red and yellow... meaning the distance from red to blue and yellow to blue is smaller than the distance between red and yellow and yellow to red... if blue team is ahead at the end of the game its ridiculously easy (assuming red and yellow are GOOD teams) for red and yellow to gank blue and stop them from winning. More often than not getting relic runs as the blue team spells the end of a holding run.

As for your comments about my views on altar holding... do you honestly want me to request that your post be deleted ONCE AGAIN? ONCE AGAIN you fail to show any understanding of my view concerning the old style altar holding. You present my arguments in such a prejudiced and narrow sighted way in order to serve your somewhat mysterious disdain to any posts i make. It wouldnt be so annoying if you didnt FAIL so epicly at understanding english.

so if you enjoy being publicly humiliated so be it... i will grant your wish.

1) i said blue team enjoys a slight advantage on relic runs
2) i said this advantage is countered by the ease at which blue team can get snared by red and yellow.
3) the advantage is also negligible because of the last to cap mechanic i never said it was a major advantage... stop falsely representing my arguments! READ->UNDERSTAND->RESPOND
4) you cant criticise an HoH mechanic because of what happens in 1vs1 situations. ANY mechanic fought in a 1vs1 situation should be an automatic win for blue because they are holding and thus have a slight head start at the beginning of the match. In a 1vs1 situation it is almost impossible for the invading team to make up for this slight advantage. Its not a huge advantage but the effort required to catchup is huge. In relic runs blue team starts off holding 2 altars... in relic run they start off with 1 relic capped much sooner... in altar holding they start with 1 point much sooner and benefit from already having capped the altar and enjoy the auto rez. Theyre not meant to be balanced in 1vs1 match ups... stop arguing like they are meant to be.

5) in old school altar holding blue team never had a really strong advantage apart from the fact they started the match with the altar capped.
6) in old school altar holding teams didnt have any mechanics to abuse that were in-built in the altar holding mechanic itself... they just ran builds that were designed to survive a couple of minutes of intense pressure.
7) i never argued against altar holding because it gave blue team the advantage, because it never did.
8) i dont want to repeat my arguments against altar holding. If your memory or reading comprehension is that bad i suggest you go repeat primary school english lessons and re-read my MANY posts where i explain extremely clearly... repeatedly the reasons why i dislike altar holding.
9) my arguments against altar holding rarely involved any mention of the difficulty of fighting vs a holding blue team or any mention of any advantages or disadvantages involved in the 3 way match.

READ->UNDERSTAND->RESPOND

think carefully before you post next...

its becoming abundantly clear that you are trolling my posts... i would be careful if i were you

happy new year everyone!