Curse

Martin Alvito · Jan 04, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you aren't making use of Heal Party under Healer's Boon, you would be better off running Glimmer of Light. I'm 100% serious and, if you take a critical look at the skills, I don't think there's much to argue about. Healer's Boon is to make Heal Party a great skill, not to turn Orison into a bad Glimmer.

HB does two things for you:
1) make Heal Party have a viable cast time
2) convert your Infuse into a Heal Other so that your "infuse" becomes energy efficient (All Infuse really does is transfer the healed target's damage onto you. You never *want* to click Infuse, but sometimes circumstances compel you to do so.)

As for energy management under HB:

Glyph gives you back 30/minute, as long as you click Party and/or Other as the next two heals after clicking it.
Channeling requires you to invest 7-10ish (depending on how much Inspiration you run), so you need to get 40ish back to improve on Glyph. Possibly a bit more if someone's Inspiring it off you regularly or some such.

You're not going to get 40 back per minute from Channeling in most matches if you click Party (nearly) to the exclusion of all else. At best, with cooldown, recharge, cast time and the glyph you're clicking Party about 10 times per minute (assuming no energy constraints; a more realistic sustainable Party spam rate is 7-8/minute).

So the question in all metas is this: Are you getting enough mileage out of discounted 5 CC skills to justify Channeling? If you're going to prevent more deaths by using Party 4-5 times per minute, spamming Veil on recharge and tossing a discounted Dwayna's Kiss or Other around...then by all means take Channeling. If the above is true, it implies that either your team is running a pile of enchantments, that the meta is hex-heavy, that you're facing a lot of caster spike, or some combination of the above.

If this isn't the case, you should be running Glyph. Note that running Glyph also frees up a few attribute points that you should account for, even if the net gain is merely 3-6 points of Divine Favor healing.

Moral of the story: calculate energy gain/minute, skill output per use and a rough utility value (in energy) of your e-management choices (such as PDrain or Leech Sig). It saves a lot of bother when figuring out what should be on your bar in those slots, and it gives you the 'right' answers to building the bar and playing it efficiently, given the meta.

Ensign · Jan 04, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I still hope you're being sarcastic.

Well of course there are better Monks that you can take than a Glimmer Monk. My point is that Glimmer is better than pretty much everything else that bar does. If you are not making good use of Heal Party, put Glimmer of Light on your bar and you have a better character.

I'm comparing it to something deserving of mockery for a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

2) convert your Infuse into a Heal Other so that your "infuse" becomes energy efficient

Remember that the predominant viewpoint of this thread is that Infuse Health is better than Heal Other on a Healer's Boon Monk; it really is just about the Heal Party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

As for energy management under HB:

You can try to compare numbers that way but it doesn't work out very well, as the characters play much differently; HB Monks with GLE spotheal with Kiss or Ethereal Light to set up big Parties, and use Heal Other for emergencies; HB Monks tend to channel tank and spam Orison of Healing to benefit from the Channeling (and very likely need the Infuse over Heal Other because their skill usage is so much sloppier). The latter has to make up for vastly inferior skill usage with raw valume, not only from himself but from the Prot Monk as well.

I think it would be entirely fair to say that while Glyph gives you 30 energy/minute, Channeling has to net you 100 energy per minute to break even and make up for all the efficiency loss. This is of course a bit less if you're playing a build with gobs of defense to support channel-tanking Glimmer, er, HB Monks, but the general idea remains.

Snow Bunny · Jan 04, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Well of course there are better Monks that you can take than a Glimmer Monk. My point is that Glimmer is better than pretty much everything else that bar does. If you are not making good use of Heal Party, put Glimmer of Light on your bar and you have a better character.

I'm comparing it to something deserving of mockery for a reason.

Remember that the predominant viewpoint of this thread is that Infuse Health is better than Heal Other on a Healer's Boon Monk; it really is just about the Heal Party.

Take away the Infuse > Heal Other viewpoint.

I don't understand your reasoning concerning Glimmer vs. Heal Party. You're wasting energy with glimmer, seeing as if you're chan-tanking you're building up too much energy to be used, while (yes, this is true, oh my goodness) you should be casting, using energy, and Heal Party in an HB chan-tanking situation should win out here, for the same reason LoD was so effective pre-nerf.

Glimmer's wasting energy that's not being used, while HB/HP over a seriously drawn out engagement will sap the monk, but for the visceral outburst that is HA, the energy maintenance of channeling in addition to 102x8 = 816 healing that HB/HP is providing wins out.

I see your numbers, but HB simply provides more healing, and will continue to do so under pressure with chan-tanking, in the instance where GoLE would be on recharge and your 1 slot of e-management can't be used 1/2 the time, while channeling can be kept up indefinitely.

I'm not trying to dismiss your point, but aren't the numbers on my side here?

Div · Jan 04, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

I think the point is that if you don't use HP enough on a HB bar, you might as well channeltank under glimmer as opposed to channeltanking under HB-orison. The fact he's trying to show is that you simply can't channeltank as effectively with a HB bar as you would like (compared to an RC bar) and that having glyph is a better choice for pumping out HP.

Killed u man · Jan 04, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

It pretty much comes down to this: How much energy will u get back for channeling?

What you guys are trying to, is argue over something that isn't argueable, since channeling isn't a "set" ammount. If you're monks manage to get 3-5 energy back/spell, then Channeling is better, hands down. Assuming you use orison and dwayna's somewhat on recharge, you can pretty much get 70-80 Energy out of channeling per minute. At the cost of having your monks "tanking" the damage, that is still very reasonable. Seeing you would take off the energy glyph gives you, you would still have 40-50 Energy per minute to make up the energy loss for keeping yourself alive whilst channeltanking.

If your monks prefer to stay out of damage, then obviously glyph will be better. (Not taking any enchant strips, etc into concideration)
But, for HA, in general, channeling is better, hands down. Anyone who will somewhat disagree on this one, obviously hasn't had the luxery of ever channeltanking before...

I gues I also don't have to point out the fact that 99.9% of HA monks are Mo/Me...

=> Also, In HoH capture points and KoTH... Well, let's stick with: With glyph, you won't hold out 1 minute. (Unless your facing dual spikes, or something low-pressure)

shoogi · Jan 04, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Channeling doesn't encourage bad metagame in the long run, because the fact of it being ultrapwnage against some degenerate stuff like iway and heroway (rof gives free energy? sign me up) somewhat discourages those builds, and therefore improves the meta.

Sha Noran · Jan 04, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Elektra, the more you post, the more increasingly obvious it becomes that you have no idea what's going on. Sadly, you're not the only one who completely lacks reading comprehension in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Your post is written in a semi serious way. For someone new it might not be obvious and they might end up running glimmer...

Please write <sarcasm> at the end? lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Anyway my argument was not just about the heal party but the fact you said it should absolutely be a glimmer monk:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It it weren't for the big Heal Party, this should absolutely be a Glimmer Monk. There aren't many teams in HA that a Glimmer Monk could keep up with though.

See?

Holy shit, you're completely missing that by comparing a Healer's Boon bar that doesn't fully utilize it's Heal Party to a Glimmer Of Light bar, Ensign was implying that the said HB bar sucks, not that the Glimmer bar is good.

At least make an effort to understand the posts you're arguing with before you type out responses.

TaCktiX · Jan 04, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

I somewhat don't get the HP debate. In a lot of matches, it's just not necessary, because the entire party isn't taking enough damage to justify it. If you can spot-heal two people who are at 60% while the rest of the team is at 90%, you've only spent 10 energy instead of the 15 you would have HP'ing. Granted HP is a god-send against large amounts of pressure, and I agree it should be on any HB bar, but all this talk of 7-8 a minute only shows valid on stuff like Capture Points (maps and HoH) and Relic Runs (the maps).

wuzzman · Jan 04, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

I somewhat don't get the HP debate. In a lot of matches, it's just not necessary, because the entire party isn't taking enough damage to justify it. If you can spot-heal two people who are at 60% while the rest of the team is at 90%, you've only spent 10 energy instead of the 15 you would have HP'ing. Granted HP is a god-send against large amounts of pressure, and I agree it should be on any HB bar, but all this talk of 7-8 a minute only shows valid on stuff like Capture Points (maps and HoH) and Relic Runs (the maps).

In that case...HB fails....I mean really, if most of the time your better off spamming orison, then your better of with a Woh or glimmer...and when the time comes to spam HP but when you do you run out of energy under channeling...then your still better of spamming Woh or glimmer on recharge. Most "high pressure" situations are due to bad positioning, IE balling up.

Yichi · Jan 04, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Channeling doesn't encourage bad metagame in the long run, because the fact of it being ultrapwnage against some degenerate stuff like iway and heroway (rof gives free energy? sign me up) somewhat discourages those builds, and therefore improves the meta.

I honestly hope that you don't believe this when you said that a tanking channeling monk spamming rof on recharge helps to deteriorate people from runnign thumpway/heroway/iway builds.....

elektra_lucia · Jan 04, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Most of the time the team is better without song. I'll still keep it for king of the hill and courtyard. Heh.

Heal Party is a great heal for other maps, antechamber etc.

Quote:

Holy shit, you're completely missing that by comparing a Healer's Boon bar that doesn't fully utilize it's Heal Party to a Glimmer Of Light bar, Ensign was implying that the said HB bar sucks, not that the Glimmer bar is good.

At least make an effort to understand the posts you're arguing with before you type out responses.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/absolutely

You might want to look at this word. You clearly don't understand English. Also, I'll fully aware he was implying the HB bar without HP sucks; however, it clearly has some great things about it. One million dwayna heal anyone?

Now read this:

Quote:

It it weren't for the big Heal Party, this should absolutely be a Glimmer Monk.

As for missing the point... The point of the thread isn't about HB. It's about channelling.

Quote:

Sadly, you're not the only one who completely lacks reading comprehension in this thread.

Calm down now. At least I don't do it in such a hypocritical way though heh

. If his post stated what he meant in his head, then I would have replied to something completely different.

Anyway, heal ribbon instead of heal party when having two heroes isn't too shabby xD.

Div · Jan 04, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Channeling doesn't encourage bad metagame in the long run, because the fact of it being ultrapwnage against some degenerate stuff like iway and heroway (rof gives free energy? sign me up) somewhat discourages those builds, and therefore improves the meta.

The last thing an IWAYer wants to do is chase me around in very big laps with make haste on because I don't need to stand in the middle of everything tanking. I've even gotten hate PMs like "noob runner" or "learn to fight stupid monk" so I'm pretty sure my circle running annoys them quite a bit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Elektra, the more you post, the more increasingly obvious it becomes that you have no idea what's going on. Sadly, you're not the only one who completely lacks reading comprehension in this thread.

Are you trying to be witty here? Even though I don't agree with Elektra's views, I can understand where he's coming from and why the typical HAer might share his views. But I really have no idea what you're trying to do, insulting everyone post after post. I love how you talk about his reading comprehension, but didn't you get owned earlier?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

And he's not going to make any friends, either, if you managed to convince him that Infuse Health is a bad skill with your horribly wrong argument regarding why it's bad... which it isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The comments on Infuse vs Heal Other are exclusively in the context of a Healer's Boon bar. If you do not have Healer's Boon you run Infuse, no question.

TheHaxor · Jan 04, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

This thread is starting to get derailed. I think the first few pages are full of quality discussion, but these last few are starting to become an argument because people are getting away from the original subject matter.

Please keep the discussion about channeling =/

Ensign · Jan 04, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

What you guys are trying to, is argue over something that isn't argueable, since channeling isn't a "set" ammount. If you're monks manage to get 3-5 energy back/spell, then Channeling is better, hands down.

See that's my issue, if you're only getting 3-5 per cast off of Channeling with a HB guy you're not getting enough, because while that will keep the Orisons coming it will not support Parties. You need to be running a surplus on Channeling for it to be better, since that provides you with the energy needed to cast the important spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

You might want to look at this word.

So basically your point is that you can be extraordinarily pedantic when you want to derail a conversation?

HAY GUYZ I DUN WANNA ADDRESS THE POINT LET'S PICK AT THE AMBIGUITY OF TEH ENGLISH LANGUAGES INSTED!

elektra_lucia · Jan 04, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Actually that word had a lot to do with the point you were making. Not the point you were TRYING to make. I can see that now. Why do you think if I asked you if you were being sarcastic? I understood it as it was said, I can't read peoples minds. If you want to speak English then that will help.

If you say that if you do not wear a red shirt then you absolutely should wear a yellow one. Then I'll think you have taken into account the blue shirt but don't think you should wear it.

As for the infuse...

I always said it was not clean cut and I hold that view. It's getting to a point where I am more inclined to run it though.

Quote:

when you want to derail a conversation?

I thought it was you who wanted to derail conversation. My point was that WoH was viable. You said it wasn't. You may of not MEANT to say that, but you did say it.

Quote:

Remember that the predominant viewpoint of this thread is that Infuse Health is better than Heal Other on a Healer's Boon Monk; it really is just about the Heal Party.

I don't see that you can forget about heal other. Also depends on the groups of the time that you play too.

Yichi · Jan 04, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I thought it was you who wanted to derail conversation. My point was that WoH was viable. You said it wasn't. You may of not MEANT to say that, but you did say it.

No one ever said that WoH wasn't viable. When talking about spamming orison in a HB bar while channel tanking, you have basically turned orison into a glorified Glimmer with using 2 skills (one being your elite and one non elite) to do the same thing as Glimmer.

How did he derail it into saying WoH isn't viable again?

Dominator1370 · Jan 05, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Because he used the word "absolutely", which, as we all know, can only be taken one way, just like all other words in the English language.

just for elektra, </sarcasm>

Anyway, maybe it's just me, since I don't play much Monk or Mesmer, but even with HB to speed it up, Heal Party is a 1s cast time, which is by no means out of the realm of PD'ing. It seems to me that if you're planning on Channel-tanking, using Heal Party is asking to be interrupted. Sure, you can start kiting backwards and then hit Heal Party, but I can see that causing problems if the other team plays it right...

What Now · Jan 05, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

?

um.......

Sorry some people were disagreeing with infuse and I was simply saying in some cases preproting isn't as efficient such as against teams that watch who you preprot or rend enchantments. Hoping it was on this topic x.x

Yichi · Jan 05, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by What Now

Sorry some people were disagreeing with infuse and I was simply saying in some cases preproting isn't as efficient such as against teams that watch who you preprot or rend enchantments. Hoping it was on this topic x.x

any half decent team is going to remove the prots wether you pre prot or active prot against it.

The difference is you not taking the 98347698346 damage at the beginnign of the spike by hopefully having a cover enchant up, than tryign to catch it in the middle of the damage output. Thus where infuse comes in handy

elektra_lucia · Jan 05, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Because he used the word "absolutely", which, as we all know, can only be taken one way, just like all other words in the English language.

just for elektra, </sarcasm>

Anyway, maybe it's just me, since I don't play much Monk or Mesmer, but even with HB to speed it up, Heal Party is a 1s cast time, which is by no means out of the realm of PD'ing. It seems to me that if you're planning on Channel-tanking, using Heal Party is asking to be interrupted. Sure, you can start kiting backwards and then hit Heal Party, but I can see that causing problems if the other team plays it right...

You could look up the word 'absolutely'. Your ignorance maybe bliss for you, but it isn't for the person you inflict it upon (me). In this situation, 'absolutely' meant "1. without exception; completely; wholly; entirely: You are absolutely right.".

You might want to look at this "2. positively; certainly."

This "3. (of a transitive verb) without an object."

And this "4. (used emphatically to express complete agreement or unqualified assent): Do you think it will work? Absolutely!"

Infact, it really doesn't matter which definion go by. So long as it isn't a made up definition. What he stated was that WoH was not viable. If you do not use HB. You HAVE TO USE glimmer. That is basically what he said. He could admit he did not mean to say that, but no. That would take WAY too much of a person.

You could get his cum out of your mouth and just admit I'm right, but no. You might spill it on your jeans.

As for this:

Quote:

No one ever said that WoH wasn't viable. When talking about spamming orison in a HB bar while channel tanking, you have basically turned orison into a glorified Glimmer with using 2 skills (one being your elite and one non elite) to do the same thing as Glimmer.

How did he derail it into saying WoH isn't viable again?

...