Curse

Div · Jan 02, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I only commented on the "bad HA players out there" because we are dealing with HA. I would have similar recommendations for PUG GvGs where you are not going to get reliable monks, because to be fair, how often do you PUG a monk and think he is truly decent and reliable. This isn't dealing with player quality between HA vs GvG. I understand there can be great players from both forms of PvP, but we are talking about the typical PUG players in HA here, not the few cases of truly good players.

I don't know why you're being a little crybaby about being defensive of HA players, but it's the truth, and I'll say exactly the same about how most GvG PUGs are going to be filled with trash players.

elektra_lucia · Jan 02, 2008, 08:04 PM // 20:04

I never saw you use the word pug, my bad.

Div · Jan 02, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I never saw you use the word pug, my bad.

The OP is a r1 player. He is not going to have a friends list of great HAers. What else do you think he's going to do but PUG and pick up fellow semibad monks?

Sha Noran · Jan 02, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The OP is a r1 player. He is not going to have a friends list of great HAers. What else do you think he's going to do but PUG and pick up fellow semibad monks?

And he's not going to make any friends, either, if you managed to convince him that Infuse Health is a bad skill with your horribly wrong argument regarding why it's bad... which it isn't.

Tab · Jan 02, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

He never said it's bad, and explained his reasoning above. Learn to read.

Son Of The Axe · Jan 02, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

its not a clean cut choice and bringing infuse isn't the end of the world, both choices are viable, and yes the argument can be made that one might be better than the other, but its not devastating if you take infuse.

Divine just enjoys showing off the fact that he has a bunch of high ranked friends with whom he can laugh at others and unnecessarily put ppl down.

*slow clap*

Div · Jan 02, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

And he's not going to make any friends, either, if you managed to convince him that Infuse Health is a bad skill with your horribly wrong argument regarding why it's bad... which it isn't.

Infuse is a crutch used if you can't find a reliable prot partner, which will be 95% of your time in HA until you find a good HA guild with decent monks that you can trust. After that, the power of infuse diminishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son Of The Axe

Divine just enjoys showing off the fact that he has a bunch of high ranked friends with whom he can laugh at others and unnecessarily put ppl down.

Who am I putting down? The average PUG monk, because it's true? We all know rank doesn't imply skill even though there's a correlation, so it doesn't matter which level of play you're at. You'll find rank 12 players that are bad, and rank 5 champs that are bad. Many of my friends aren't particularly high ranked, but we just have good synergy and trust playing with each other.

All I'm doing is presenting a legitimate alternative to channeling in HA and an explanation to why infuse isn't as needed as many people think it is. It's just a deviation from the norm of HA, by implementing the energy management techniques learned from TA and GvG to make you a more aware monk overall as opposed to relying on one skill. Sure, the channeling bar will help a new player with altar matches more, but it in fact destroys the new player's sense of energy management, which he might not be able to get back when he moves to other areas like TA or GvG. It's just the philosophy of a lot of more serious PvP starting in HA as opposed to TA that bugs me. While channeling may be the most dominant choice in holding, it really sucks in relic runs and capture points if people are running everywhere and not crowded around the center.

Sha Noran · Jan 02, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

He never said it's bad, and explained his reasoning above. Learn to read.

His sarcasm>your reading comprehension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Infuse is a crutch used if you can't find a reliable prot partner, which will be 95% of your time in HA until you find a good HA guild with decent monks that you can trust. After that, the power of infuse diminishes.

So then you don't take Infuse and instantly lose to spikes that ignore or avoid Prot. I've enjoyed great success beating the cockiest HA teams in the game who are convinced that they no longer require the basics because they're just soooo pro.

However, despite whatever high end argument we might be able to have regarding Infuse, the fact is that a r1 Monk trying to get into PUGs is going to have a much harder time making friends if he tries to tell people that Infuse is bad. That's all I said.

Ensign · Jan 02, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

I'll put out there that my experience in the last month has been the HoH giving us 50% relic running, 40% capture points, and 10% altar holding. Of those we have the least trouble with holding, though what we think is good very well may be skewed by the other types. And no I have no clue why the hall gives us 5-6 relic runs, 3-4 cap points and maybe one altar on an average night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

And he's not going to make any friends, either, if you managed to convince him that Infuse Health is a bad skill with your horribly wrong argument regarding why it's bad... which it isn't.

The comments on Infuse vs Heal Other are exclusively in the context of a Healer's Boon bar. If you do not have Healer's Boon you run Infuse, no question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Where exactly would you have to heal party a tonne?

A general comment on Healer's Boon Monks in HA is that they do not use Heal Party enough. I am not familiar enough with their situation to know why they are not using Heal Party enough, simply that they are not using it enough. I know from watching that HB Monks eventually get locked into their high sets against iWay, and Heal Party stops at that point (generally you have to kill iWay before this happens or you're going to die with the Heal Party); Glyph/HB Monks do not have this problem. I don't know what happens in other matchups.

My experience is that we get a much more reliable performance if the variation is on the prot Monk and not the Healer's Boon Monk. Most pottytrained players can play RCProt well enough that I don't notice it as a singular point of failure; I have not seen that consistency at Healer's Boon at all.

Lorekeeper · Jan 03, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

1 single HP from a HB monk should be enough to stabilise a team. In which case if you are watching a good team with good monks running a good build i dont expect you to see the HB monk casting HP that often.

If you are watching HA matches where you think the HB monk should be casting HP more often i guess that the team you are watching is either

1) bad
2) running a bad build
3) has a bad prot monk
4) all of the above

i think its really as simple as that... good teams dont need their HB monks to cast HP that often. And in times of trouble... 1 HP should be enough.

elektra_lucia · Jan 03, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

The OP is a r1 player. He is not going to have a friends list of great HAers. What else do you think he's going to do but PUG and pick up fellow semibad monks?

Straw man (explained below)... Regardless, he could have picked up friends in TA or GVG.

Quote:

Sure, if your prot monk is like most of the bad HA players out there, go ahead and take infuse for that 700 point heal on the ghostly when holding. But if you can trust your prot partner to throw a spirit bond or whatnot after the initial enchantment removal, a heal other is often enough. With two teams spiking a ghostly, you're either...

My argument was to this.

Quote:

He never said it's bad, and explained his reasoning above. Learn to read.

Some what bad reasoning. He said things sarcastically too... Please don't be a sychophant.

Quote:

All I'm doing is presenting a legitimate alternative to channeling in HA and an explanation to why infuse isn't as needed as many people think it is.

I agree with this, but I thought that you were saying, with good monks you would not need to take infuse. I still think that, with good monks infuse is perhaps more viable than heal other.

Quote:

A general comment on Healer's Boon Monks in HA is that they do not use Heal Party enough. I am not familiar enough with their situation to know why they are not using Heal Party enough, simply that they are not using it enough. I know from watching that HB Monks eventually get locked into their high sets against iWay, and Heal Party stops at that point (generally you have to kill iWay before this happens or you're going to die with the Heal Party); Glyph/HB Monks do not have this problem. I don't know what happens in other matchups.

They may be locked into high set, but you shouldn't need to use heal party vs IWAY.

jaeharys targaryen · Jan 03, 2008, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I made a thread for holy and elektra to argue with eachother, and now i see andrew patrick is reading it, and ensign has posted in it. I should have just messaged ibreak in game, like i usually do with my nub questions, considering he's the only one who seemed to give a straight answer here. Unfortuneately, he wasn't online at the time.

TaCktiX · Jan 03, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

And to that last post, I must laugh. Leave it to the experts to completely misunderstand each other and argue over finer points that most people will never need to worry about. We all know that very few HA monks have mastered the art of pre-prot, but that should not influence the choice of Infuse vs. Heal Other. I personally prefer HB/Infuse, it makes up for a lack of Spirit Bond in a lot of cases.

Sha Noran · Jan 03, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

And to that last post, I must laugh. Leave it to the experts to completely misunderstand each other and argue over finer points that most people will never need to worry about. We all know that very few HA monks have mastered the art of pre-prot, but that should not influence the choice of Infuse vs. Heal Other. I personally prefer HB/Infuse, it makes up for a lack of Spirit Bond in a lot of cases.

Sigh........

Div · Jan 03, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen

I made a thread for holy and elektra to argue with eachother, and now i see andrew patrick is reading it, and ensign has posted in it. I should have just messaged ibreak in game, like i usually do with my nub questions, considering he's the only one who seemed to give a straight answer here. Unfortuneately, he wasn't online at the time.

Yeah, people need to get away from my playground

elektra_lucia · Jan 03, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

And to that last post, I must laugh. Leave it to the experts to completely misunderstand each other

I don't think I'm anywhere near an expert. holymasamune makes some good posts, I guess I kind of misunderstood him =D.

Ensign · Jan 03, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

They may be locked into high set, but you shouldn't need to use heal party vs IWAY.

Do you run 3 monks?

Yichi · Jan 03, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

They may be locked into high set, but you shouldn't need to use heal party vs IWAY.

I can't wait to hear the explination for this one.....

Div · Jan 03, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

The general HA balanced build is still some variation of legoway, with twenty layers of paragon defense. Running with DA gives the HB monk the ability to not need to heal party nearly as much. Similarly, in a 3 monk situation (or if you have a motigon) it becomes much easier to deal with it too. In both cases you are sacrificing some utility for defense.

As for channeling vs GoLE, it's a must have on an RC bar. However, it really depends on the playstyle and the distribution of Halls maps for the HB. If you're comfortable channeltanking or want to be good at being a monk tank, taking a bit more damage but gaining more energy, more power to you for running channeling. It's a very easy way to deal with the insane pressure on both new and experienced monks in HA, and I don't blame people for taking the easiest way out. Monks that are capable of running channeling to its maximum effectiveness on a HB bar have my respect. But nor should it be the only option (or best option in some scenarios), which is the only point I'm trying to suggest by comparing it with glyph (and showing how glyph is better in many cases) in that bar.

You really have to experiment with bars to feel what you're comfortable with. I remember my bar was initially given with channeling. I ran it a few times, loved the altar orison spam, but realized it was completely horrible for my style of play and the team build in relic runs, or even in altar matches when my orison gets dchopped by the friendly local IWAYer.

elektra_lucia · Jan 03, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Do you run 3 monks?

Not usually no. I'm not against it though...

Quote:

I can't wait to hear the explination for this one.....

Huh? I wouldn't get locked into high set (it just makes it harder) but, I just meant a monk could be locked into high set I guess vs it. Why would you heal party? I don't understand.

There isn't an IWAY warrior out there that can d-chop properly. They just hit it and when you stop kiting it hits if you're dumb enough to cast at same time. If they could d-chop, they probably wouldn't be playing IWAY. As at the moment, IWAY doesn't get much fame.