Curse

Master Ketsu · Nov 17, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

By just the meta alone and ignoring the gametypes, Id say its pretty good. I see balanced holding halls, thats always a good sign.

britnie31 · Nov 17, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Here is the deal , yes HA has now become A gvg training ground , I go in with my gvg BUILD and can hold halls ( and have many times as most pvp players know ) we are a top 400 guild and we just take a basic gvg build including our gank ranger who goes Crip shot in place of BA and go on 10 -15 game streaks

as for the original poster .. No buddy this is NOT the best its been , this is the opposite

Lorekeeper · Nov 17, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

GvG is seen as the pinnacle of GW PvP as such every other PvP arena can be perceived as the training ground for GvG. If you intend on improving as a PvP player in GW you would probably aspire to master the various PvP arenas... or at least become quite familiar with them... and then make the move to GvG where the rewards for competiting competitively are the most valuable and often result in real world prizes.

So yes, HA is the training ground for GvG but that doesnt take anything away from HA itself. It still has plenty of unique qualities which set it apart from GvG so that players who do not wish to play GvG can quite happily spend their time mastering HA strategy.

But this step ladder nature of HA>GvG isnt unique to the new maps mechanics which promote GvG-like play... HA has always been the first port of call for new PvPers looking for 8vs8 team play who, once they have gotten used to 8vs8 dynamics... then move on to more serious GvG.

But putting that point aside... having a HA that trains players in a wider variety of strategies is not a bad thing. HA that allows players to develop one-dimensional understanding of PvP is a bad thing. In the old days builds focused massively on simple straight up fighting... with a small amount of strategies involving bodyblocking for relic runs. So Tombs generally developed excellent skirmish fighters... or players who were very intuitive when fighting a head on 8vs8 engagement. But then when these tombs players moved to GvG they found the fluidity difficult to comprehend... they were so well tuned into fights where no teams could escape... tactical flexibility like splitting and retreating and position play were total unknowns.

What Anet has done is an attempt to unify the various PvP arenas in order to encourage reoccuring themes between them... like the need to know how to split... the need to know how to snare... how to body block... how to clean snared allies... etc etc because all of this knowledge is useful knowledge that will benefit players who want to play competitively in this game. If you are serious about playing PvP you should embrace the learning process and be ambitious enough to want to develop this kind of knowledge.

Unfortunately the attitude that i see some people take... who say these things have no place in HA. I consider their attitudes similiar to a PvEr. A PvEr attitude in HA is simple... farm fame to get rank... spam shiny emote... farm fame to next rank spam bigger more shiner emote. Its like in PvE... people farm titles... for the next rank... and farm some more... for the next rank. Nothing is done with the intention to develop the players actual understanding or skill at the game... they farm these points to get better armour or a higher rank... rewards which are accessible to almost anyone who is prepared to commit enough time to farming the various points.

And therein lies the crux of the issue... rewarding time spent playing vs skill at playing.

PvP arenas which ask very little of the competitors reward players for time spent playing.

PvP arenas which encourage players to develop a wide range of abilities reward the players who develop the widest range of abilities and become excellent at the implementation of those abilities.

Theres no evidence from Anet that HA needs to be so radically different from the other PvP arenas... and so its good that players are encouraged to learn a wider variety of strategies.

wuzzman · Nov 17, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Balance has always held halls with or without nerfing all the gimmicks. In fact the only time it didn't was when 6v6 was HA. As long as Lorekeepers post is that doesn't change the fact that HA is at its shittiest hands down. there are 3-4 groups being made at any single time accross 3 districts. You want to say HA is better, wait 45 minutes just to get out of underworld.

Legally · Nov 18, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

HA Players failed to gvg, And most of the gvg guilds failed in HA.
Its a fact.

HA gets ruined , HA players leave.

Takida · Nov 18, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

HA is just really unfun atm,
couldnt care less if every1 play balanced if the maps/mechanics are boring.

I remember one and a half year ago observing a top 100 guild against a pug at the map Sacred Temples. The HA Players won, I mean.. GvG is Different Tactics, HA >HAD< its own tactics..

AND my point is that HA shouldnt be a Training Ground for gvg.
Because some people like the gvg , Some people like the HA..
Anyways gnite ~~

Lykan · Nov 18, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Is this the best HA has been in 2 years?

I clicked here expecting some sort of joke or troll topic but wow.. you were serious.

No. No its not, not by a long way. It'll take a hell of a lot more than nerfing a Fotm to bring it back to that sort of standard, its not the builds that make the game its the players. And the players who made it great are gone, probably for good.
A good match in HA for me wasnt one were my teams rolls thru the opponents in under 2 minutes, like all the spiritways now that are clinging to it for the last drop of fame. A good match is one were 2 equally good teams can spend up to 2o minutes slowly picking or waiting for that mistake that will send the opponents to the floor.
Now its very unusual to meet highly skilled teams while your fighting thru all the endless layers of crap.

shoogi · Nov 18, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

2 years ago there were 6-7 ID's every GMT evening.
now there are 2, rarely 3, ID's every GMT evening.

Even though HA might have improved as a pvp, the lack of interest and people means that HA still sucks. Reverting hoh to holding might bring back some players, but not enough to make it good again IMO.

Divinus Stella · Nov 18, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I dont think its as fun as it was with altar holding, but thats more to do with the community rather than objectives.

The builds being played are better, theres still people hanging onto the IWAY thing, but all the attempts ive seen of bringing it back have been laughable, even with a 2 monk backline and no melee hate they are easy to roll.

Theres still scrubs around, most have moved to playing something like ranger spike where they can still be braindead and have a good chance of winning, i think this is the only thing keeping the over defensive dual para build around.

lacasner · Nov 18, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Less people pvping = more difficult to get a group for the average player. I think there is a solution to this problem, but I'll probably get flamed for saying it.

Lorekeeper · Nov 18, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

i think people confuse the wear and tear of the HA community with the ever changing map mechanics... in every single era of HA people have complained about gimmick builds. In all eras, i knew people who left because they got sick of the time it took Anet to get rid of the lame gimmick builds that was being run by all the scrubs... in every era of HA we had this. This is what caused the high end HA community to pick up shop and leave the game or to go GvG... simply because they got sick of fighting the same boring repetitive builds run by opponents with no personality or individuality... every iway warrior was the same... every necro bloodspiker was the same... when you fight against all these scrubby gimmick build it feels like fighting against AI... you dont feel like you are pitting yourself against proper... intelligent human competition. That is the characteristic of ALL the dominant gimmick builds in HA. And for high level competitors... facing these builds ALL the time is just boring. Real competitors want real competition.

The reason why we have seen such a dramatic decrease in the amount of high level competition in HA is because we have now come to the point that even the players with the most patience had given up hope that Anet would actually deal with all these gimmick builds... gimmick builds that thrived in the HA environment because of its casual nature of because of the pitched battle nature of most of its maps. Trust me... forming a team of trustworthy... highly skilled players got harder and harder over time. And the disappearance of these players was little to do with the map mechanics... it was more to do with skill balance or more the lack of... and Anets inability to get rid of the boring gimmick builds.

This is why players made the move to GvG... because in GvG the impact of a build has less influence on the outcome of a match... and other factors play a larger influence... like tactical plays. Of course... many and most HA gimmicks were converted and run in GvG... like searing flames and thumperway to name but 2... but they never really became that widespread... or at least they never dominated the top 100 of the ladder and the best guilds... the guilds everyone loves and watches... didnt tend to play those builds because of their mindless nature.

Another reason why these builds never dominated GvG as they were allowed to dominate HA... is because the GvG community was alot more effective in voicing its opinions over the impact of these builds on the ladder or on the GvG community in general... with GvG being the highest level of competitive play in GW... making sure these builds did not spread was quite important. Thats why many skill balance decisions only ever get made after something has become a problem in GvG (with exceptions of course).

Unfortunately, it was never deemed important to catch these mindless gimmick builds in HA like it was in GvG... since HA is more casual by nature and the consequences of allowing boring metas in HA is not as disastrous as it is GvG... where far greater rewards are at stake - including real prize rewards and not to mention the reputation GW recieves through its GvG population and activities.

The reason why i believe HA is *potentially* the best its ever been is because game balance in general is arguably the best its ever been since nightfall. Of course... as a result of the last few updates game balance is a little confused... people are still adjusting and adapting.

But the ingredient that played such a constant role in all the mindless gimmick builds was finally removed in the last update. This one game mechanic stood at the backbone of almost every lame boring mindless gimmick build to ever step foot in HA. It truly was one of the topmost balances on the wishlist of HA players... and now it cannot encourage anymore mindless boring play.

is it too late for this change to have a positive effect on the HA population?

could be.

but you know what some people say.

*Better late than never*

R.I.P. Soul Reaping

xhappy feetx · Nov 18, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

old school iway>zergway

Legally · Nov 18, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

About people leaving because of gimmicks is not right.

How come HA Population was decreased heavily when it turned 6v6?
How come HA Population was INCREASED heavily when 8v8 came back?
How come HA Population GOT DECREASED AGAIN when they changed mechanics?

Melody Cross · Nov 18, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

The dedicated HAers that are gone from HA are gone from HA. The fickleness of PC gamers is nothing if not constant. The manner in which Anet chose to implement these changes was considered a slant against the HA community of the time; the fact that all community requests for repeal of these changes met with a stone wall (and later a total bullsquat revamp of the maps) was viewed as a direct insult by many. So I hold no hopes that GW1's HA will ever be able to regain the playerbase of its heyday. What i pray for is that Anet learns from this abysmal stream of mistakes.

The lesson is this: never again let the prejudices of one playertype dictate your response toward another if that player is doing no wrong. Ban Botters. Squash Ebayers. Balance the game so that one build or skillset does not become a license for godhood. But never again make the foolish assumption that lazy whiners will happily hop on board if you break what others like. They’re never happy until you hand them what they want for free…and then, they still gripe.

If GW2 has something like the old HA (I hope it does; I enjoyed it) then leave it like the old HA. And when the whiners rear their grumbly heads, let them know: you did that before in GW1, and it was a horrible mistake.

GGs

Lorekeeper · Nov 18, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legally

About people leaving because of gimmicks is not right.

How come HA Population was decreased heavily when it turned 6v6?
How come HA Population was INCREASED heavily when 8v8 came back?
How come HA Population GOT DECREASED AGAIN when they changed mechanics?

You need to understand my position more, and at least show the ability to respond with a well reasoned post.

My post is more concerned with the high end population of HA. The high end population of HA had more or less disappeared quite a long while even BEFORE 6vs6 was introduced. Dont condense the history of HA to that which happened after 6vs6...

When 6vs6 came it made things worse yes... but it wasnt the start of the decline of the HA population. And dont forget, when i talk about the HA population i am not talking about the scrubs... im talking about the top players... 6vs6 made things worse because it left 2 people out of teams... and 6vs6 coincidently was also ruined by stupidly boring and mindless gimmick builds like paraway and jagged bones... what little remained of the good players just had a double dose of Anet failure.

Then 8vs8 came back... so some of the people who wanted 8 man teams came back to play HA. But did they stay? NO. Why? Because the same old boring lame gimmicks were there... Rit spikes... killcount... blah blah blah... regardless of 8vs8 coming back HA was still a horrible place to PvP for anything more than an hour.

new mechanics... new skill balance

new mechanics took out the stupid spike builds like rit spike... no wonder the HA population got smaller... there were THAT many rit spikers. New skill balance nerfing rit spike only made it worse. Not to mention the new GWEN skills didnt give all these spike players anything really broken to exploit in a new spike build... not to mention the fact that spike builds fail on the new capture point maps (because QQ you need to have ''tactics''). Removal of killcount was the icing on the cake... since rit spikers and icy veins necros loved that map the most.

You see... every point you make can be explained very easily and every explanation i can give only supports my argument even more.

The only way you can refute my argument is if you actually present YOUR OWN.

i look forward to your well thought out arguments...

please read the new sticky before you reply, something tells me you are on the verge of posting something none of us wants to see more of...

PS... please keep in mind... the general health of any PvP arena rests heavily (although not entirely) on the health of its high tier population. In HA, skil balancing has always favoured the masses over the high tier players... high tier players have always demanded proper balancing... for HA to be a place that encouraged balanced play... more skillful and flexible builds... this has rarely been the case (which is different to how it is in GvG - where balanced builds are encouraged to the delight of high end teams). The fault of Anet in HA was to pander to the masses... at the displeasure of the best players and teams... and the absence of these teams over time has had a detrimental effect on HA... which is painfully obvious on this HA forum... it is only now that skill balancing for the whole game including both GvG and HA is done with more frequency and and with more far reaching consequences that high end play now enjoys centre stage regardless of what the masses might want (as far as i can see it... the majority of players wouldnt have wanted the soul reaping nerf... but the vocal minority of PvPers who demand proper balance did demand it)... and that might pave the way for the revival of the high end population of HA which would mean great things for HA in general as the masses of players would again have players and guilds to develop aspirations and ambitions towards like in GvG.

Melody Cross · Nov 18, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

I’m sorry to intrude on what appears to be a sidebar discussion, but I feel a need to point out a flaw in your logic Lorekeeper.

Quote: