Curse

Lorekeeper · Jan 11, 2008, 12:30 PM // 12:30

the power of diversion in my opinion is highly dependant on the state of the caster meta in GvG. Currently the caster meta is poor. Of the 7 characters at the stand only 3 are casters 2 of which are monks and 1 of which is a mesmer. Diverting mesmers is quite a waste most of the time, since interrupting the mesmer is usually the better option if it needs to be shutdown. That leaves the 2 monks as targets for diversion...

the same goes for ranger interrupts... there isnt a big choice of casters for a ranger to interrupt... so the ranger has less of a task figuring out who to tab to (unless theres a DA para) offensively they really only have 2-3 targets to choose from. Magebane rangers have it even better... they can just sit in backlines or midline and camp the mesmer for diversion with dshot and then move onto the backline with magebane while diversion recharges.

its really the absence of the midline ele that has made monks feel the impact of diversions shames and interrupts far more than usual. Bring back a meta that has a better balance between caster support and physical offense and you might solve this.

Ensign · Jan 11, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I still think diversion and shame are a bit too powerful in the current meta.

I still think that the disable time on Diversion is a bit too high. Skill disabling is such a powerful effect, as shown from the power of DShot and now Magebane; the disable from Diversion is flat out nuts in comparison. I really dislike how swingy a Diversion on an essential skill can be (Word of Healing diverted, rout to base).

Shame I don't really mind as much, it's a significantly more narrow skill and isn't nearly as swingy. It's only getting any attention now because people have figured out that Mesmer elites suck ass and have decided that using Glyph of Renewal to maintain Diversion and Shame on a Monk is good Mesmer play, right?

I don't understand why you'd let the only midline caster get away with that when you have a Ranger and a Mesmer of your own as well, though.

Pyro maniac · Jan 11, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's only getting any attention now because people have figured out that Mesmer elites suck ass and have decided that using Glyph of Renewal to maintain Diversion and Shame on a Monk is good Mesmer play, right?

I saw GoR more in the past then now ..

wuzzman · Jan 11, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Well, I agree that Diversion and Shame ought to be left alone, but buffing Blackout and Gale would be a good idea. Full scale battles have pretty much come down to defense grids vs. twitch interrupts. I like rewarding people who can interrupt better, but I dont like the fact that unless you have a great mesmer and ranger, the rest of your team basically doesnt get to play. Back in the day, defense grids werent as effective because the entire thing could be blown up by coordinated monk shutdown. With 3 of the main 4 tools nerfed (Diversion, Gale, Blackout) shutdown just doesnt have the necessary power, and monks can usually shrug it off with no consequence. Bring those skills back and you'll have more interesting and rewarding ways to play offense, and you'll clear out some of the degenerate defense grids. Didnt Ensign have an entire thread on this topic?

Btw, the suggestion to change Diversion to more twitch and less shutdown is terrible. As I just explained, the last thing the metagame needs is yet more reliance on twitch interrupts. Cast-time denial is a perfectly legitimate, demanding, and desirable form of offense, and allows Guild Wars to be more than just a track meet.

bring back blackout...don't bring back gale....seriously the only thing overpowered about shame and diversion in this meta is that this meta lacks pressure, which means that mesmers can comfortably spamming skills without much interference. Besides most mesmers are interrupts RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs, most teams don't bother trying to d-chop a diversion when mesmers rarely use it like they suppose to. Better off trying to d-chop guardian.

Yue · Jan 11, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Well, I agree that Diversion and Shame ought to be left alone, but buffing Blackout and Gale would be a good idea. Full scale battles have pretty much come down to defense grids vs. twitch interrupts. I like rewarding people who can interrupt better, but I dont like the fact that unless you have a great mesmer and ranger, the rest of your team basically doesnt get to play. Back in the day, defense grids werent as effective because the entire thing could be blown up by coordinated monk shutdown. With 3 of the main 4 tools nerfed (Diversion, Gale, Blackout) shutdown just doesnt have the necessary power, and monks can usually shrug it off with no consequence. Bring those skills back and you'll have more interesting and rewarding ways to play offense, and you'll clear out some of the degenerate defense grids. Didnt Ensign have an entire thread on this topic?

Buffing gale/blackout is a bigger boon to the defenseweb builds than any other ones. Defenseway teams are the ones that are going to have the classes and the available skill slots for gale and blackout. Teams with heavy offense typically don't even carry an ele, so buffing gale/blackout really serves no purpose in modern pressure builds. Defenseway teams rely on spike, and gale/blackout are the strongest forms of shutdown used in a spike, simply because it is so much more easier to coordinate than forcing on-the-fly plays with interrupts. Buffing gale would benefit splits to a degree, but shutdown skills like those take much more skills to use than interrupts. Gale/blackout= hit button, target's shutdown.

Quote:

Full scale battles have pretty much come down to defense grids vs. twitch interrupts. I like rewarding people who can interrupt better, but I dont like the fact that unless you have a great mesmer and ranger, the rest of your team basically doesnt get to play.

You team should always depend on your midline to shut shit down for your warriors to kill if there are hindrances to your offense. I don't see why forcing your team to have a decent midline is a bad thing, since your statement just simply states that a bad midline prevents the rest of your team from seeing play.

Tough luck. Get a better midline.

Quote:

Currently the caster meta is poor.

You must've never seen euros gvg.

Quote:

I still think that the disable time on Diversion is a bit too high. Skill disabling is such a powerful effect, as shown from the power of DShot and now Magebane; the disable from Diversion is flat out nuts in comparison. I really dislike how swingy a Diversion on an essential skill can be (Word of Healing diverted, rout to base).

I also agree with the disable time on diversion, but the skill itself is so double edged that it is difficult to change. For example, for pressure teams, it's very effective against skill spams like bsurge. For spike teams, it's effective for shutting down a monk on a spike. Since use of the skill does not heavily lean towards one side or another, altering the skill might change that.

wuzzman · Jan 11, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Buffing gale/blackout is a bigger boon to the defenseweb builds than any other ones. Defenseway teams are the ones that are going to have the classes and the available skill slots for gale and blackout. Teams with heavy offense typically don't even carry an ele, so buffing gale/blackout really serves no purpose in modern pressure builds. Defenseway teams rely on spike, and gale/blackout are the strongest forms of shutdown used in a spike, simply because it is so much more easier to coordinate than forcing on-the-fly plays with interrupts. Buffing gale would benefit splits to a degree, but shutdown skills like those take much more skills to use than interrupts. Gale/blackout= hit button, target's shutdown.

You team should always depend on your midline to shut shit down for your warriors to kill if there are hindrances to your offense. I don't see why forcing your team to have a decent midline is a bad thing, since your statement just simply states that a bad midline prevents the rest of your team from seeing play.

Tough luck. Get a better midline.

lol, a better midline would be less defenseweb teams but that is not the case. Twitch-reflexes << DefenseWeb, with twitch-reflexes barely able to take down a decent team who is looking forward to vod.

I really don't know what you are talking about when you say "offensive teams don't have eles"...................................running a offensive build doesn't mean you have zero defense. Just means you have 1 concentrated defensive character with the other midliners taking utility skills to mitigate the pressure by caring short duration self defense stance or taking "off monk" skills. This allows for a more stream line offense instead of a blocky defense.

I like to see curse necros be brought up to speed to give players options and further encourage a switch between execution style gameplay with "SPIKE OR DIE AT VOD!!!" as the only way to get ahead, toward a strategy based gameplay where managing the pressure and killing by it, while being able to spike intuitively at the most inappropriate time to create opens at the flag stand and force teams to change tactics.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jan 11, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Buffing gale/blackout is a bigger boon to the defenseweb builds than any other ones. Defenseway teams are the ones that are going to have the classes and the available skill slots for gale and blackout. Teams with heavy offense typically don't even carry an ele, so buffing gale/blackout really serves no purpose in modern pressure builds. Defenseway teams rely on spike, and gale/blackout are the strongest forms of shutdown used in a spike, simply because it is so much more easier to coordinate than forcing on-the-fly plays with interrupts. Buffing gale would benefit splits to a degree, but shutdown skills like those take much more skills to use than interrupts. Gale/blackout= hit button, target's shutdown.

Exactly how I feel, and don't you think after a while that if those two saw a buff that current teams with a lack of D compared to others would start to actually pack some more because monks are getting wtf'ed galed and blackouted on the other.

wuzzman · Jan 11, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

D as in what? D in this game is primary targeted at melee offensive. The only way to defend against utility skills, like blackout and gale, is to bring utility skills...

Vanquisher · Jan 11, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Buffing gale/blackout is a bigger boon to the defenseweb builds than any other ones. Defenseway teams are the ones that are going to have the classes and the available skill slots for gale and blackout. Teams with heavy offense typically don't even carry an ele, so buffing gale/blackout really serves no purpose in modern pressure builds. Defenseway teams rely on spike, and gale/blackout are the strongest forms of shutdown used in a spike, simply because it is so much more easier to coordinate than forcing on-the-fly plays with interrupts. Buffing gale would benefit splits to a degree, but shutdown skills like those take much more skills to use than interrupts. Gale/blackout= hit button, target's shutdown.

Not necessarily - in some cases it can just be used as a spike, but it fills a medium in between flat out 4/5 physical character pressure, and midline assisted adrenal spike. If those characters there there with only the view towards spiking, it could be far more worthwhile run Shadowstep/Blackout. Blackout/Gale on the other hand, encouraged a style of play wherein you disable one Monk for a time, force a kill on one of them, quickly switch to the next, and alternate like that - it's not spiking, it's working with windows, which is exactly what iQ did so effectively with their Gale build during the GWWC. It also gave Mesmers the opportunity to do more than just sit there interrupting skills and removing enchantments all game, which is what a lot are doing now.

Quote:

You team should always depend on your midline to shut shit down for your warriors to kill if there are hindrances to your offense. I don't see why forcing your team to have a decent midline is a bad thing, since your statement just simply states that a bad midline prevents the rest of your team from seeing play.

Tough luck. Get a better midline.

Blackout/Gale accomplishes that shutdown well for timed pushes, which promotes a very strong degree of tactical awareness in terms of timing. The one possible negative thing that could be seen come from re-introducing those skills together is that it will be likely to re-introduce either a B-Surge, which seems to have slipped out of most builds, a third Monk at the stand, or you'll see a Ritualist there to slightly relieve the pressure exerted on the remaining Monk when the other is shut down.

Also, interrupting is overrated in terms of skill. The definition of ability in this game should not be down to reaction time and something almost completely out of your control (notably ping and server you play on).

wuzzman · Jan 11, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

you can't "out heal" shutdown, teams will become very creative in their methods. The problem is that blinding surge is the only option which doesn't deter many builds from popping up... normally if all options are present the flag runner would be a utility belt or capable of pushing incoming ganks out of the base, I.E offensive flag runners, however with just blinding surge ele as the only viable defensive option, we will probably see no changes in flag runner styles meaning....defensive flag runners.

Captain Robo · Jan 11, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

It's a bit late to be looking at Diversion; as it stands, the skill has always been one of the best in the game, and a staple of any shutdown Mesmer.

I think the real problem (if there is one) is that the single-greatest tactic for both winning games and preventing losses has been the concept of shutdown. You always want to bring a character that can obsolete an enemy in a variety of painful ways. The inflexibility of a single character to deal with all situations is what makes shutdown a critical component of the game!

Rangers and Mesmers punish casters with interrupts and disable effects.
Elementalists punish physical characters with blinds.

An extreme imbalance exists with respect to the effectiveness of shutdown against different character classes. Against physicals, shutdown is really only a temporary solution, and your only "sure bets" at reliable defense are Wards and Shouts, as they are the only remaining method of irremovable team defense. Everything else can be countered in some way, and even wards and shouts have their downsides.

Team builds only fail when:

A. The team is bad.
B. The defensive linchpin is removed.

In particular, the healing aspect of Guild Wars is intensely complicated, as healers are limited to their eight skills with which to protect themselves and their party, and cannot do anything without those skills or the energy required to use them. Melee classes have numerous options available with which to achieve their goals, even without using skills. A Warrior can function as a perfectly good energy denial mechanism and DPS machine, simply by switching to offtargets every time a monk throws up a protection spell. Guardian, Spirit Bond, Shield of Deflection, and Prot Spirit are all fantastic wastes of energy if you don't prevent any damage with them. While Aegis covers the shortcomings of Guardian to great extent, the long cast time and recharge makes it susceptible to all kinds of disruption. Furthermore, melee classes can simply c-spacebar to pressure the other team; Rangers can apply poison, spread degen, and interrupt at will. Countering these effects, which needs little effort on behalf of the enemy offense, requires constant maintenance in the form of protection and healing from your team's monks, who can only perform as long as their energy holds out... or as long as they have the skills with which to deal with these effects. It may sound stupid and obvious, but monks are wholly reliant on their skills in order to accomplish anything at all; they have no other way to do anything else. (wand an ally to heal them, anyone?)

Disabling skills like Diversion and Dshot are powerful because they have the potential to deny usage of a specific skill for a very long time; when a powerful skill like Bsurge, WoH, or RC gets disabled, a caster is unable to perform to the best of their ability, and downright incapable of accomplishing an aspect of their intended goal.

The true nature of this beast has to do with the limitations imposed by the game, in that only eight skills and eight players are available; and of these eight skills, you want to make a bar which allows you to perform a great deal of functions with maximum effectiveness. When one of these skills gets disabled for any extended length of time, and an enemy offense is good enough to take advantage of this handicap, it's usually the beginning of the end. Skills that can disable or flat-out ignore defenses are always going to be powerful because they effectively gimp a character.

Skill disabling is only good because of the eight skill limitation. If more skill slots were available, then we would be able to work in some sort of redundancy or failsafe system, but that could imbalance the game entirely. Besides, a frontline can be shut down too... it just normally doesn't result in a party-wipe.

Team defense strategy in Guild Wars has become centered around keeping the offense alive long enough to kill the other team. Izzy wants more explosions, and that's the way the game is right now. To change this would require more work than they're willing to spend, and while this current metagame is not balanced in the way myself, and most people would like it to be; it is probably the most balanced post-Nightfall Guild Wars has ever been.

Dominator1370 · Jan 11, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

If Izzy really wants more explosions (and while I've never sat down and talked with the guy, I'll buy that), it seems like he'd get far more mileage from making party defense and healing more viable, freeing up slots or even characters for more offensive-oriented roles and then making sure we have the means to disrupt or go around (or even through) said countermeasures to push kills through.

Of course, then you start running into a vicious cycle: if keeping your party alive is easy enough for you to focus more on offense, then the other team's probably going to have just as easy of a time keeping themselves alive, so both of you need disruption. If disruption becomes effective, then teams aren't able to keep themselves alive as well, so they're going to have to bring more defense. If teams start bringing more defense, they need more disruption, but it gets harder and harder to find room for it.

This is where I think the meta kind of gets stuck, and I'm not sure why. If teams are becoming too defensive, it seems (in theory) that you should be able to bring an overload team without a ton of defense, crack open the megadefense team's shell, and not have to worry too much about the repercussions because a highly defensive team just can't be as effective offensively. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that from what I've seen, it doesn't happen as much as meta-shift theory suggests it should.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say a lot of the blame lays with the strength of HEV and the weakness of most forms of disruption. Melee pressure is incredibly effective, but most forms of defense out there (and certainly most forms of defense people actually bring) counter melee, directly or indirectly. If disruption was stronger, teams could load up on it, shut down a team's defense, and push kills. Since that doesn't work, hex overload would be a very nice option for punishing highly defensive teams, since hexes can still be effective through as many layers of block as a team wants to throw up. With enough hex pressure, you only need an occasional melee spike to push kills through. The problem is, if a team relies on hexes and the other team happened to bring HEV, most of the time they'll be better off just /resign'ing.

If I'm right (and I'm sure someone will be coming along shortly to tell me exactly why I'm not, or perhaps just yell at me with no real explanation), it wouldn't take much to kick-start the meta-shift machine, namely buffs to a few disruption skills (blackout and crew), a nerf to HEV, and buffs to the Curses line and party healing wouldn't be amiss. That should cover most angles and make things a lot less stagnant.

So, let's do it?

Captain Robo · Jan 11, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Of course, then you start running into a vicious cycle: if keeping your party alive is easy enough for you to focus more on offense, then the other team's probably going to have just as easy of a time keeping themselves alive, so both of you need disruption. If disruption becomes effective, then teams aren't able to keep themselves alive as well, so they're going to have to bring more defense. If teams start bringing more defense, they need more disruption, but it gets harder and harder to find room for it.

More or less, this cycle leads to gimmicks. I will come clean and say that I believe balanced builds to be the end-all-be all of GvG. Nothing requires more skill and has as much potential as a team of balanced players who know exactly how to execute their roles.

However, sometimes player skill is not the issue here, because sometimes you can just get rickrolled by stupidly powerful gimmick builds, and nothing can be done about it.

Heroway on Burning Isle is probably the most goddamned ridiculous build in terms of power-to-skill ratio, in that you don't even need 8 human players to run it, and it can easily roll teams that don't know exactly how to beat it. It is of little consequence though, to refute gimmicks from a player skill standpoint, because while you may be a better player, a loss is a loss.

With respect to buffing skills, it is important to consider that such changes, when conducted with poor foresight, give rise to gimmick builds and imbalanced metagames. I agree, party healing is something that really needs to be toned up, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't make people invincible. I'd like to see Warriors working as hard to kill someone as a Monk is trying to keep that person alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

If I'm right (and I'm sure someone will be coming along shortly to tell me exactly why I'm not, or perhaps just yell at me with no real explanation), it wouldn't take much to kick-start the meta-shift machine, namely buffs to a few disruption skills (blackout and crew), a nerf to HEV, and buffs to the Curses line and party healing wouldn't be amiss. That should cover most angles and make things a lot less stagnant.

Boo curses. The entire summer metagame was hexes up the ass. If I ever saw a hex stack build again it would be too soon.

Blackout-- add this line: For each adrenal skill disabled, you gain 2 Energy.

I'd like to see Heaven's Delight/Divine Healing reworked... although perhaps un-duplicated, as having two powerful non-elite party healing skills would be imbalanced. However, I don't think its out of question to ask for a cheap, efficient spell that targets at least two people and gives them a sizable heal or prot.

I can see giving a 'minor' nerf to Diversion and Dshot, perhaps reducing their disable times slightly, but I REALLY want these skills to remain in major play. They're some of the best skills in the game, and I can't imagine a Guild Wars without them. Magebane, however, should be tuned down a bit though. I'd say that the unblockable clause could be balanced by the skill being 1/2 range.

It is indeed difficult though. The metgame right now is 'balanced', albeit on a needlepoint.

wuzzman · Jan 11, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

lack of defensive options + minimum reliability of shutdown + War and ranger split encouraging defensive flag runners + interrupts and enchantment strip on spike being the only thing midline is good for offensively = current meta.

Ensign · Jan 11, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

It's a bit late to be looking at Diversion; as it stands, the skill has always been one of the best in the game, and a staple of any shutdown Mesmer.

That's not really true actually. Diversion wasn't very common until Nightfall came out, as skills and builds were much more redundant; Diversion only really saw play on spike Mesmers who didn't do much between spikes and carried a Diversion to spam to fill the gaps. Look at the dom bars from both the GWWC and GWFC, Diversion wasn't popular at either if it was played at all. Mesmers were EDenial and lockdown (Gale/Blackout) back then, it wasn't until Nightfall and a bunch of nerfs changed everything that they turned into Diversion harassment + interrupt characters.

erk · Jan 11, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

I really don't know what you are talking about when you say "offensive teams don't have eles"...................................running a offensive build doesn't mean you have zero defense. Just means you have 1 concentrated defensive character with the other midliners taking utility skills to mitigate the pressure by caring short duration self defense stance or taking "off monk" skills. This allows for a more stream line offense instead of a blocky defense.

Best have a look on obs a bit more, there are a stack of top teams that have replaced their B-Surge with either a Paragon or another Warrior. It's been going on for a while now. The Paragon is very flexible because you can swing his role anywhere between full defense to full offense depending on what your team prefers. Dual Paragon midlines are popping up.

There should be some skill that lets you remove the effect of Diversion on a crucial skill like WoH instead of just creating an instant team collapse. eg. if WoH is Diverted then you should be able to revive it with a hex removal. That way it's not a show stopper. The balance would be also making Diversion a bit more spamable, perhaps by reducing its cast/recharge.

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 11, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

There should be some skill that lets you remove the effect of Diversion on a crucial skill like WoH instead of just creating an instant team collapse. eg. if WoH is Diverted then [B

you should be able to revive it with a hex removal[/B]. That way it's not a show stopper. The balance would be also making Diversion a bit more spamable, perhaps by reducing its cast/recharge.

wtf, what would be the point of the skill then . One of the worst ideas i've ever heard

Neo-LD · Jan 12, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Buffing gale/blackout is a bigger boon to the defenseweb builds than any other ones. Defenseway teams are the ones that are going to have the classes and the available skill slots for gale and blackout. Teams with heavy offense typically don't even carry an ele, so buffing gale/blackout really serves no purpose in modern pressure builds.

Strongly disagreed. Start thinking about offense outside of the WWRPMe build. Buffing Blackout and Gale might not help that build's offense much, but it would revive many offensive schemes of the past, like WWMeMeE and WWRMeE, both of which would be perfectly capable of taking down defensegrids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Defenseway teams rely on spike, and gale/blackout are the strongest forms of shutdown used in a spike, simply because it is so much more easier to coordinate than forcing on-the-fly plays with interrupts. Buffing gale would benefit splits to a degree, but shutdown skills like those take much more skills to use than interrupts. Gale/blackout= hit button, target's shutdown.

Hiitting an off-monk with Diversion or Gale takes no more or less "coordination" than hitting his save with Dshot. And you of all people should know that Gale and Blackout are not as simple as "hit button, target shutdown," for the same reason monking is not as simple as "hit button, target lives," and interrupting is not as simple as "hit button, target disrupted." As always, what is important is when you choose to use your spells. And rewarding skill as pertaining to judgement is just as important as rewarding skill as related to reflex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

You team should always depend on your midline to shut shit down for your warriors to kill if there are hindrances to your offense. I don't see why forcing your team to have a decent midline is a bad thing, since your statement just simply states that a bad midline prevents the rest of your team from seeing play.

Tough luck. Get a better midline.

No need for personal shots, Yue, but you misunderstand. I do not mean to imply that teams with weak midlines ought to 'get away with it, just that Mesmers are currently unnaturally important. I'd estimate that a mesmer is at least 2x more vital than any other member of his team atm.

Yue · Jan 12, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

WWMeMeE

That would be spike, with little to no splittability.

Quote:

WWRMeE

That there isn't enough shutdown for defenseweb in 8v8. You can argue with it as much as you want, but there are simply too many dependencies in that build to deal with it. If you look at defenseweb builds, viewing crappy ones and the WWRMeE being able to beat it is not how to do it. The best defenseweb build played right now is rawr's build, and to determine if you have enough shutdown is to determine whether or not you have enough to shutdown rawr's defenseweb. Simply a Ranger and Mesmer for your midline shutdown will not work: 1) It's not reliable since shields up/aegis essentially takes your ranger out until you get lucky or both go down for some period of time. 2) It will take too long. The point of 8v8 shutdown against defenseweb is to kill the web before they spike you out, which they inevitably will if you give them enough time.

If splitting is taken out of the equation, you simply do not have enough reliable shutdown in a R, Me template. We've tried it, and it doesn't work. Giving yourself defense outside of running defenseweb against those types of build is also a stupid thing to do, since giving their mesmer 1 character for them to shit on all day is asking to get rolled.

Quote:

Hiitting an off-monk with Diversion or Gale takes no more or less "coordination" than hitting his save with Dshot. And you of all people should know that Gale and Blackout are not as simple as "hit button, target shutdown," for the same reason monking is not as simple as "hit button, target lives," and interrupting is not as simple as "hit button, target disrupted." As always, what is important is when you choose to use your spells. And rewarding skill as pertaining to judgement is just as important as rewarding skill as related to reflex.

+

Quote:

Blackout/Gale on the other hand, encouraged a style of play wherein you disable one Monk for a time, force a kill on one of them, quickly switch to the next, and alternate like that - it's not spiking, it's working with windows, which is exactly what iQ did so effectively with their Gale build during the GWWC.

That's true, but pure shutdown skills like gale/blackout is much more effective for spike teams in this meta. If an offense team expects to blackout/gale someone, it hardly matters because with the defenseweb up you're not going to get a kill anyway. If a spike team uses those skills, it gives them another venue for "hit button, target shutdown," which is how gale is used in those builds. It's also the few types of builds where your mesmer can actually run right into their backline for blackout. You don't even need shadowstep/blackout. For an offensive team to be able to utilize those skills, the web needs to be shutdown first. Taking a character/skill out for gale/blackout slows that down, and with a build to take their defense down you won't even need those skills to make pushes.

We've ran defenseweb before to see exactly how much punishment it can take, and we let our monks have about half their bars diverted and still nobody dropped under half with the defense up.

Quote:

The one possible negative thing that could be seen come from re-introducing those skills together is that it will be likely to re-introduce either a B-Surge, which seems to have slipped out of most builds,

Bsurge's will be around for tourneys, and that's where it will matter.

Quote:

No need for personal shots, Yue, but you misunderstand. I do not mean to imply that teams with weak midlines ought to 'get away with it, just that Mesmers are currently unnaturally important. I'd estimate that a mesmer is at least 2x more vital than any other member of his team atm.

It's not a personal shot. It just sounded like you were making the suggestion of "giving midliners a chance if they're not as good as they need to be" by providing them with gale/blackout buffs. I don't see how giving them blackout/gale would make them any less important right now.
Also, they're unnaturally important because they're unaffected by blockway in their methods of shutdown. Rangers are. So essentially, you have 1 shutdown character in play until part of the defensive web is shutdown, which makes playing shutdown much less reliable without a third midline shutdown character.

Dominator1370 · Jan 12, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

There should be some skill that lets you remove the effect of Diversion on a crucial skill like WoH instead of just creating an instant team collapse. eg. if WoH is Diverted then you should be able to revive it with a hex removal. That way it's not a show stopper. The balance would be also making Diversion a bit more spamable, perhaps by reducing its cast/recharge.

Skills for countering the effect of Diversion are tough to come by, but they exist. On the other side of the coin, you don't need a counter to the effect, because there are plenty of ways to prevent the effect, or, in other words, counter the skill itself.

Diversion is a 3s cast before fast-cast is applied. Even with fast-cast, hitting it with an interrupt of nearly any kind shouldn't be a stretch. Hell, you should have plenty of time to hit Diversion with a D-chop, even without Frenzy.

Alternately, you could have Diversion removed, either by getting someone else to remove it, pre-veil, use something that you know will recharge instantly (i.e. Sin attack skill out of order), or simply don't cast under Diversion. What's that? The Mesmer just timed your cast and Diversioned your WoH? Well then he made a damn good play and your team deserves some negative effect. If you want to talk about Diversion's disable being a little long, that's fine. We don't need a button that's strictly an anti-Diversion button, though, because there are plenty of ways to deal with it that have a lot more applications.

Edit: leave me alone, I'm tired... CoP doesn't work on Diversion, I was thinking Shame and the like...