Curse

Farin · Jan 04, 2008, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

And being blocked temp shuts down the skill.

Which applies to every attack skill that isn't unblockable.

No one has a figured out a way (that I know of) to exploit this yet but getting around blocks isn't that hard, you could just go hit their frontline with it and get around 70-80 DPS. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, just sayin'.

frojack · Jan 04, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Ghostly Weapon for just your Dragon! A Sword bar is probably a little too crowded for this kinda' stuff. Also means you have to sacrifice Shock, you can't use Final on a DS, speed ( frequent spell casts, urgh). Then theres cost...

Theres guided weapon on an ally but that means high communing (urgh) and costly/risky 2 second casts on a rit who isn't a runner (or sig mesmers, who spend their time buffing warriors instead of causing hell for the mid&back-lines). Theres the baby-sitting Ghostly/Wielder's Zeal spam thing, but I've never like that to be honest (I just don't think the guy does enough).

I dunno'... Constant Sever>Gash>Dragon pressure would be a nightmare to face but at the same time, defeating anti-melee will be hard enough as it always is. How much more dangerous is this guy than a shock axe when there isn't any melee-hate to worry about?

Riotgear · Jan 04, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Well, Mind Blast is better at pumping out a constant stream of damage pressure, Melandru is better at spikey DW spam, so what's Dragon Slash for again?

Tamuril elansar · Jan 04, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

high DPS, more presure.

icedwhitemocha · Jan 06, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Well, Mind Blast is better at pumping out a constant stream of damage pressure, Melandru is better at spikey DW spam, so what's Dragon Slash for again?

Pretty sure you can't compare a warrior to an ele in a spot meant for a warrior. Melandru is a more valid comparison, but as has been said a million times... its god mode for a minute followed by a minute of suckage.

Sure dslash loses effectiveness when dslash gets blocked, but the same thing can be said for all warriors and their respective elites.

Tyla · Jan 06, 2008, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Which applies to every attack skill that isn't unblockable.

Don't forget the good old Evis bar, small spikes imo.

Quote:

No one has a figured out a way (that I know of) to exploit this yet but getting around blocks isn't that hard, you could just go hit their frontline with it and get around 70-80 DPS. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, just sayin'.

True that, but D-Slash is more spamming so its kinda easier to negate, and hard to keep up.

Frojack also has quite a nice reason, it just takes to many skill slots to manage, and the D-Slash spam is limited because of FGJ!'s downtime, sorta like melandru but less vunerable with downtime.

What i think anyway.

frojack · Jan 06, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Gale buff anyone?

We can't do the 3 second thing (well, it's just not going to happen), but while this means recreating the team-wide window isn't possible, it could be recreated for the caster somewhat.

1/4 second cast (yes I'm aware it would be like a mes interrupt), or 3/4 cast but with no aftercast.

I honestly prefer the latter, but that might be a bit sick on mesmers. You can't really 'lock' as hard as it used to, and my only real reservation is Gale effectively becoming a exhausting super-interrupt. Which may or may not be good for the game... Despite being stupid good fun.

Greedy Gus · Jan 06, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I'd rather see gale back to 5e to see more use on warriors than mesmers. It's not a needed buff, but I think it's a more interesting character and doesn't lead to degenerate gameplay that I know of.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 06, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

gale is fine as is.

Killed u man · Jan 07, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Gale buff anyone?

Gust buff anyone?

Dominator1370 · Jan 07, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Frojack also has quite a nice reason, it just takes to many skill slots to manage, and the D-Slash spam is limited because of FGJ!'s downtime, sorta like melandru but less vunerable with downtime.

What i think anyway.

If you use Enduring Harmony (either on the Warrior or off-Warrior on a Paragon) you can keep FGJ! up for 30 seconds on a 45 second recharge. That's not exactly like a Melandru Derv.

Not saying that makes it a problem; IMO, if it's not seeing play often, it's for a reason, and I personally haven't seen D-slash in PvP particularly often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

gale is fine as is.

Speaking of seeing play often, if Gale is fine, where the heck is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Gust buff anyone?

I was actually thinking about suggesting that... If we can't make Gale viable, how about we make the Elite Gale (Gust) viable? Honestly, I'd probably rather have Gale on my bar as it is now than Gust even if Gust wasn't elite. It needs some work. I'm not sure how much play it'd see on a E/, but it might work on a Me/E.

Tab · Jan 07, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Gale doesn't see play? o ok.

Lordhelmos · Jan 07, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

The sword line needs help, augury of death needs to die, magebane needs to get hit, and maybe warmonger's weapon can take a hit too. Bestial mauling can take a hit as well.

Captain Robo · Jan 07, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Speaking of seeing play often, if Gale is fine, where the heck is it?

On every bsurge bar.

Winstar · Jan 07, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Speaking of seeing play often, if Gale is fine, where the heck is it?

Gale is often on the E/D mindblast split template, and the glyph of energy blackout mesmer, and often on b-surge at the stand.

Shuuda · Jan 07, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Gale has more than it's 15 minutes of fame in the past, so fine as it is or not, just move it aside.

Greedy Gus · Jan 07, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Gale has more than it's 15 minutes of fame in the past, so fine as it is or not, just move it aside.

I agree with this poster; bulls strike, rof, d-shot, gift, frenzy, apply, guardian, troll, shock, and res sig should also just be moved aside.

Lorekeeper · Jan 07, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

General comments on current GW skill balance

Over time there has been a slow and gradual decline in the effectiveness and popularity of finesse type play in GW PvP in favour of more brutal play that seeks to overwhelm rather than to work around defensive measures. This is an unfortunate side effect of the evolution of GW since prophecies, and can be explained in part by the addition of 3 new physical classes and a new class that has found use in PvP as that which augments the physical classes already in the game. Little has been done to encourage more subtle methods of defeating your opponents at the same level as there have been marked improvements to the balance between the ability to inflict direct damage and the ability to heal/prot that damage. As a result, both GvG and HA metas have shifted towards a particular stable meta... with the majority of teams following the dictates of powercreep and having to compete like for like in the attempt to out dmg their opponents before their opponents damage overwhelms their own meagre defenses.

There is little room for finesse type play in GW. Since the defensive and offensive power potential of all classes has been ever increasing since prophecies we have not seen a similiar improvement to shutdown type skills... and as a result... builds that aim at disrupting opponents in order to open larger and larger windows of opportunity have become increasingly difficult to play as effectively as they used to be in the past. The effect is less apparent in GvG because of the various oppotunities teams have at their disposal to work around the defensive potential of their opponents through means external to the skills on their respective skill bars... like split play and shifting positions... but even so... when is the last time you saw a guild running a build that was designed to win through disruption play? They KGYU dual ranger condition build was a good example of this type of build... with relatively low defense and direct damage it relied on the disruption abilities of its dual rangers and humility to create windows of opportunity for its dual warrior frontline to pressure out the opponent. The old dual surge mesmer build aimed at edenying enemy backlines of their energy... even vs weapon swapping monks the build had the potential to open windows of opportunity for a good frontline duo. The smoke trap variant of the old KGYU build was the most recent disruption/pressure build that saw good success (Although was not run by a great number of teams) but it has fallen out of favour since the last significant skill balance that nerfed LoD and put healers boon and WoH back onto the map. HB or WoH coupled with RC make a incredibly strong combo versus pure pressure builds... but unfortunately are vulnerable to builds with a high amount of direct physical dmg coupled with timely disruption on key skills... spike/pressure builds as opposed to pure pressure. Another explanation for the lack of builds that focus on pure pressure type play could be due to the lack of players experienced enough or skilled enough at playing those builds... not to say that the current playerbase could not become good at running these builds... its just that none seem prepared to take the losses that might need to be taken while a guild takes the time to practice playing these sorts of builds. They arent easy to play by a longshot... and that fact is not helped by the evolution of skill balance that i have just described. Another consideration is VoD play... with VoD occuring at 18min there is much less time for teams to dig in and pressure out opponents than there was in the past... in order to gain the advantage in 8vs8 confrontations teams are forced to either time kill targets or to chain kill backlines to force wipes. Most teams seek to achieve this by out damaging their opponents and dropping diversions and shames and ranger interrupts on the few defensive skills that might prevent them from killing... things like wards.. blind... or aegis. When matches do reach VoD... its the pure pressure builds... builds built around disruption play that have the disadvantage since they lack the direct dmg that is so effective at wiping NPCs at the stand.

Your guess is as good as mine as to exactly why these builds have disappeared off the radar in GvG.

The effect is extremely apparent in HA... where the majority of teams have chosen to follow the power creep trend that has been so clearly endorsed since nightfall... disruption type play is virtually non-existent. It might be dictated by the new gametypes (capture points) ushering in a fire ele meta coupled with a player base that designs builds around the concept of farming quick fame with easy to run builds. In any case regardless of the gimmick led meta skill balance grants very little options for the teams who do value quality of play over quantity of playtime. For these teams it is difficult to run builds built around the concept of disruption... especially when you consider the buffs to monk skills in recent updates coupled with the opportunity for monks to use channeling in HA maps. The disparity between the effectiveness of disruption play vs the highly improved direct damage and monk healing potential is highly telling in HA. You simply cannot spec enough disruption in a build that can hope to mitigate both the offensive and defensive power of your opponents. THE only build capable of this so far is the dual migraine heavy hex builds that some teams are running. Must teams be resigned to the fact that there is only 1 build capable of satisfying their desire to run a disruption/pressure build that actually requires some organisation?

i will list some much needed skill balances in a little bit... but i just wanted to say that i personally think GW has always needed and still needs a far more comprehensive skill balance than anything we have seen since nightfall. We need a skill balance that moves metas away from the perpetual battle between direct damage and passive/active defenses... metas based on that relationship will ultimately settle into stale metas (as it has done both in GvG and HA)... meta shift will never occur. If they do occur it will be through artifical means (ie nerfs and buffs - which is what has happened in the last year or so) rather than the playerbase dictating the shifts by exploiting weaknesses in the sheeplike meta.

Anyway enough of the rant here are my suggestions for necessary/semi-necessary skill balances.

Augury of Death

-> increase recharge to 15 or 20 seconds. (deep wound for casters that outshines any other classes DW applications and has great synergy with deadly paradox still... please... do... something)

Rodgorts Invocation

-> increase recharge to 10 seconds. (high dmg+burning+nearby aoe... every 5 seconds? Not so crazy in GvG but in HA its insane on a mindblast ele)

Icy Veins

-> increase recharge to 7-10 seconds. (spike every 5 seconds... no thanks)

Fear Me!

-> add 4 second recharge time like watch yourself and go for the eyes. (severe nerf)
OR
-> increase adrenaline cost to 6 adrenaline and reduce area of effect to adjacent foes. (so fgj warriors can still use it well and SS cant spam it+Dchop so much)

Rampage as One

-> reduce increased attack speed buff to 25% for ranger and pet.

Magebane Shot

-> Increase recharge to 10 seconds and disable to 10 seconds.

Song of Purification

-> increase cost to 7 adrenaline (allow condition builds some chance please)

Song of Restoration

-> increase cost to 10 energy. (quite a harsh nerf... not so necessary)

Aura of stability

-> rework function to... target other ally is immune to the next 1...2...3 knockdowns this enchantment lasts for 12 seconds. (its one of those ridiculously easy fire and forget skills... as a monk i love it... but i must admit its a little too good... give those hammer Warriors a breather will you!)

Hex eater vortex

-> only remove enchantments from adjacent foes, reduce damage by half, reduce recharge to 10 seconds. (elite hex removal with a bit of pressure... not ''if you run hexes im going to destroy your backlines preprots'' skill.)

Legendary Shiz · Jan 07, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Hex eater vortex

-> only remove enchantments from adjacent foes, reduce damage by half, reduce recharge to 10 seconds. (elite hex removal with a bit of pressure... not ''if you run hexes im going to destroy your backlines preprots'' skill.)

lulz. If you did that nobody would play that.

Why not just bring glyph energy with shatter hex?

I'm glad some people aren't in charge of balancing our skills, or this game would have been in the shitter years ago (its not already? lulwut)

Shuuda · Jan 07, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I agree with this poster; bulls strike, rof, d-shot, gift, frenzy, apply, guardian, troll, shock, and res sig should also just be moved aside.

Are you being sarcastic, I'm going to assume you are. And by the way, YOU MISSED DIVERSION, YOU NOOB

Regardless, Gale has been nerfed, with good reason, and I doubt it will make any major comeback, were not gonna see gale warriors, ever again, let it go.