Curse

Moloch Vein · Dec 19, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Putting IV in Death Magic would solve the first problem. I like the second change (to Signet of Sorrows) (but make it "dead Ally").

Turbobusa · Dec 19, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Define "way lower". What do you think would be suitable?

Hum something around 70 at max(thats not "way lower", I just meant that it should exceed something like 90dmg, which is quite big already). That would be a nerf in some way but as I said stick that on a warrior and you're 99% sure that it will trigger. Being also quite spammable in the way you presented it, it could be used as a cover. Keeping the initial casting time could solve that.

I like the idea of fear me being directed toward target foe only. That keeps it usable while not keeping it as the strongest Edenial IG.

bungusmaximus · Dec 19, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Im unblockable, so much for balance, hey put warmongers on me they cant do anything about it.
Shattering Assualt
A/D do more damage then D/x do
hey theymight be able to preprot my 200 dmg attack (D/A, or A/D) but thats a whole lot harder when I shadowstep to my target!!!
Augury of death

Don't know wether SA is the problem, or the unblockable chain itself. Golden fox strike is the only unblockable dagger lead attack in the game. If you must do something about unblockable assassins you might only want to make golden fox unblockable when the sin is enchanted with an assassin enchantment (think assassin's remedy or critical defenses here). That way it might become worthwile removing it or interrupting it while the sin would have to sacrifice an extra skill slot (don't quote me on it, but didn't the HA build use a conjure?).

Fully agree with you on warmongers though, it's borked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Rampage as One
For 3-13 seconds, both you and your animal companion attack 33% faster and run 25% faster. This skill ends if you use a non-pet-attack skill.

Could be me, but I really like this one.

jayce · Dec 19, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Putting IV in Death Magic would solve the first problem. I like the second change (to Signet of Sorrows) (but make it "dead Ally").

agreed with your suggestion of IV, and by doing so, there would be no need to even change SoS as they would lose some of their synergy. i read another poster who said it best, whenever you nerf something because of use by eight of the same teammates, it often destorys the skill for use in its intended design. i do not think that Anet designs skills for balanced teams to be used by unbalanced teams. IV is not the only skill used in that build and can be defended against unlike, in most cases, life-stealing.

its times like these, and im probably going to catch hell for saying this, but i had always wished that Anet included a game-type that does not allow the use of a secondary profession. i've always wonder what kind of meta-game would roll out of that game.

Jayce Of Underworld

Turbobusa · Dec 19, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

That would also make it in line of putrid bile, which is supposed to be its non elite alternative.

EDIT after reading jayce's post: yes I just mean that it's logic. There is no reason for one being in SR and the other under death magic.People willstill complain about SR anyway, the only way they would stop would be to change SR completly and we all know it is not going to happen. Making IV in DM would require attribute spreading, Y'oull have a bloodspike without the unprotable advantage, thus inferior, I don't know why anyone would still run that.

Greedy Gus · Dec 19, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Necro's need a specialism no other chars have. I think defile defenses and corrupt enchantment are interesting skills. Necro's can be geared to punish defense, not to gimp attacks (mesmers remove enchants too, but it's no way near as good as corrupt). Indeed the problem of necromancers at present is that they are a cast-forget class with no real depth. Cast forget is never as rewarding as you would like, playing curse necro isn't hard. It should be made harder and therefore more rewarding indeed.

I mean the curses line, which is either overpriced, or utterly cheesy. What I mean to say is tweaking the necro class is only worth it if you give necromancers a unique role (punishing enchantments with corrupt, punishing block with defile defenses, spreading disease).

I like your ideas here for the direction of the line/class. Specifically a skillful defense-punishing template could allow the slotting of a necro into a balanced build, which we haven't seen in nearly 2 years.

There is an issue of how some mesmer skills already play a similar role of punishing defense (shatter/hev/etc.), but I think you can be safe by making the necro more based around small-packet damage, degen, etc., so it plays more in a pressure style rather than the spikey mes feel. Surely there is need to be wary of making the template too strong, but consider how potentially dangerous a mesmer can be if not shutdown, and aim for that level for a non-harassed necro.

One could consider that it would take a full reworking of the class, but really all that is needed is a vision for a better game when balancing, and starting on working toward at least a handful of skills for a basic template that works (doesn't really matter if 3/4 of the skills are trash designs, fix them later). They've slowly added some more interesting skills to the line like Atrophy, which is situationally underpowered (based on the other primaries) but interesting conceptually and a good candidate for a minor buff/rework for a skillful necro bar.

The basic vision I'd have would be necros as being able to fill midline roles for balanced builds, to allow for general split/pressure, instead of split/spike like current mesmer-based balanced builds. Pressure has been in a bit of a rough state for awhile, from just pure overload builds (with a huge focus on crapping on party healing) to the newer pressure builds which focus on crazy interrupt pressure and good enough damage (very little defense).

jayce · Dec 19, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

That would also make it in line of putrid bile, which is supposed to be its non elite alternative.

you make it sound like it would encourage use between the two like they haven't been used together before. i know that's not what you mean. but it wouldn't make too much of a difference because as long as there are 8 necromancers on one team, people will always complain about something the second they are killed by the necros as long as SR is on the table.

Jayce Of Underworld

Andrew Patrick · Dec 19, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

I'm going to pass this on in our Community Summary. Please keep making suggestions.

bungusmaximus · Dec 19, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

They've slowly added some more interesting skills to the line like Atrophy, which is situationally underpowered (based on the other primaries) but interesting conceptually and a good candidate for a minor buff/rework for a skillful necro bar.

At least it would be a good one for neutering paragons. Maybe add an interesting penalty based on a character primaries. such as:
-warrior: stance is removed
-Paragon: shout/echo/chant is removed
-rit: weapon spell is removed (would be revolutionary)
-Monk: enchantment is removed
-Sin: Cannot shadowstep for x seconds
-Ranger: don't really know, having 0 expertise is already quite devastating
-Dervish: enchantment is removed
-Ele: needs to be a mild one too, not sure
-Necro: cannot use hexes for x sec
-Mes: cannot use hexes for x sec

maybe im wandering off too far, I'm not even sure if this is technically possible, but it sounds like fun.

Might be a nice one to make necros able of removing weapon spells anyway, that way they can earn a role in more builds a lot better already. It shouldn't be too easy though since weapon spells don't stack and all.

Moloch Vein · Dec 20, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

agreed with your suggestion of IV, and by doing so, there would be no need to even change SoS as they would lose some of their synergy. i read another poster who said it best, whenever you nerf something because of use by eight of the same teammates, it often destorys the skill for use in its intended design.[/i]

I would like to strongly stress that this can't be an only change. We can't keep neutering the N primary attribute for PvP use for the sake of stopping gimmick trash. This would have to be compensated for by moving one or preferrably two spells from other N lines into the primary, and possibly with some sort of boost, as well. In my opinion, moving an elite to another line requires moving another elite back. I vote for Wither and Atrophy, along with rebalancing these skills to actually be viable.

Moloch Vein · Dec 20, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Hum something around 70 at max(thats not "way lower", I just meant that it should exceed something like 90dmg, which is quite big already). That would be a nerf in some way but as I said stick that on a warrior and you're 99% sure that it will trigger. Being also quite spammable in the way you presented it, it could be used as a cover. Keeping the initial casting time could solve that.

Keeping the initial casting time while settling for such a small malus would make the skill pretty worthless. That's like one hit of Weapon of Remedy/Vengeful Weapon, and that heals you. It would need an additional malus (knockdown? I'm not sure.)

Seriously, it's a hex. Hexes can be removed. Hexers can be shutdown. If the hex does indeed trigger I'd like to notice an effect.

The idea of adding weapon shutdown to necromancers is very interesting but will likely never happen because Arenanet does not seem to want to add more skills to the game. Maybe something in the line of "Corrupted Weapon". Unstrippable hex, heh.

Ensign · Dec 20, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Glyph needs a hit also, because it is too easy.

I'd really hate to see GLE get hit. It's not a must-run on any common character, and when it is run it enables more interesting bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Is it too late to ask for a Blessed Light buff?

Eh. I guess it could be buffed, but all the proposals I've seen have been of the 'mash on this button for everything one skill monking' variety that I'm pretty sure would be a bad idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Apart from the fact that that would require quite a reworking of the class

No it wouldn't. It would require reworking a couple of marginal skills to fill in gaps in the skillset.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

huge collateral damage in PvE builds

As far as I'm aware none of the skills under discussion are important parts of PvE skillbars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Wail of Doom: Reduce recharge to 8, reduce cost to 5, reduce duration to 1...8...10. Changed functionality: "If target foe is using a Skill, all his attack Skills are disabled for..." Reduce health sacrifice to 5%(?)

It should probably still cost 10. Do you really want it to disable attack skills for interrupting Healsig or the like?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Price of Failure: Reduce cost to 5, casting time to 3/4, recharge to 8. Changed functionality: "For 10 seconds, the next time target foe fails to hit with an attack, it suffers x...y damage (think Defile Defenses-range) and Price of Failure ends."

I like this sort of change, though the numbers you've put on it are way too good - it's a crazy good cover hex as listed. It doesn't cause any sort of miss chance on its own, just adds on to whatever else you happened to have there already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Reckless Haste: For x..y seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes are hexed with Reckless Haste. When hexed, target foes attack (a) faster but have a (b) chance to miss with an attack. For each foe, when he fails to hit with an attack, suffer (c)..(d) damage, get knocked down, and Reckless Haste ends.

I could see something like this working, as a fast cast (maybe even 3/4), short duration, longish recharge hex.

Turbobusa · Dec 20, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Keeping the initial casting time while settling for such a small malus would make the skill pretty worthless. That's like one hit of Weapon of Remedy/Vengeful Weapon, and that heals you. It would need an additional malus (knockdown? I'm not sure.)
Seriously, it's a hex. Hexes can be removed. Hexers can be shutdown. If the hex does indeed trigger I'd like to notice an effect.

Well it could be "next time target foe misses, this hex ends. When this hex ends, target foe take X damage and is crippled for T seconds". Keeping the 25% miss chance of course. I don't know about cripple I just put some melee hate here, could be anything. That version is too good compared too hidden caltrops, so if you have any idea...

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 20, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Wail of Doom (10e, 1/4s, 15r) - Target foe's action is interrupted. If target foe was using an attack skill, all that foe's attack skills are disabled for x-y seconds.

I kind of like the idea of this skill as an unconditional interrupt, in addition to a defensive skill. You won't be using the interrupt effect very often on non-attack skills, but there are situations where you'd want too and it makes the character more versatile.

While the price amd Reckless buffs under discussion aren't terrible, the character still sounds like a boring "click the warriors and spam on recharge" guy. Necros need some skills that you can use effectively when pushing to shut down a character or create a window of opportunity, and I'm not seeing that in the buffs discussed so far.

DarkNecrid · Dec 20, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

This is what I would like to see happen balance wise (for example)
Necromancer:
*Cacophony: 10e -> 5e.
*Chilblains: Up the damage a bit.
*Defile Defenses: 5...17s -> 3...7s
*Insidious Parasite: 5...13s -> 3...6s, 15...39 -> 20...40
*Lingering Curse: 25e -> 15e, 10s RT -> 20s RT
*Rigor Mortis: 8...18s -> 4...7s
*Rip Enchantment: 15...7% sac -> 10...2% sac.
*Spinal Shivers/Shivers of Dread: Functionality changed to: For 5...15 seconds, whenever target foe is struck for cold damage while using a skill, that foe is interrupted. 15s RT -> 30s RT
*Soul Bind: I have no freaking clue. Do something to it.
*Vocal Minority: For 5...17 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes cannot use Shouts or Chants and take 15% longer to cast spells.

Kyp Jade · Dec 20, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Vocal doesnt need buff, its useful enough as it is

edit--
just thought for aura which would let me runa hammer again, is

Change functionality to
Reduce KD duration by 50% for the next 1...6..8s, 5 en, 1/4 cast, 12 recharge

or

Prevent the next KD on target ally for the next 1...6..8s,

it should not mean perma no KD, it should be meant to help force a KD, and at a decent spec in prot it should be at LEAST 5s (the amout of time it takes the ghostly to cap on courtyard)

---
also just spend some time on observe, and while balance teams vs balance teams are kinda fun and balanced, it also is really fun watching half a team sit down to shitspirits, even sometimes (iway) a single player spends all thier time doing this

Moloch Vein · Dec 20, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Well...

First of all, my positively awesome idea for a change of Wail of Doom, that I thought up in the shower

Quote:

Wail of Doom
Elite Shout

I think most agree that Cacophony, Vocal Minority and Ulcerous Lungs aren't that good a counter against shout-based teams. I think Avarre hit the nail... any hex can be removed, and if people manage to stick a killer hex on a team, that indicates they run a hex-heavy team to begin with, which negates the need for half the shouts in the first place.

No... seriously, the only thing that would be an effective counter to shouts... would be more shouts.

Example:

Quote:

Cacophony
Chant

For 10 seconds, every time target foe uses a Shout or Chant, all that foe's allies within earshot take x...y damage.

A true pressure skill straight from Hell...

Shout are non-removable. Why shouldn't the countermeasures be too?

shoogi · Dec 20, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

I would like to see Lingering Curse back into play. Do something about that insane energy cost, which comes with a 10% hp sacrifice, a 2-sec cast, and a not-so-great duration. This skill has good potential, shame its stats suck so bad. Some sb/ri spikes did use that skill, but now when that build got nerfed it's totally useless.

I would like to see heroway removed from heroes' ascent. Don't care how. Same thing with iway. These builds are not very overpowered and a good team should flawless them, but it's just frustrating when you want to find a pug and everything appears to be one the mentioned builds, when you don't want to play them.

Add more snaring possiblities beside Water Magic, to add some variety in builds. Probably the illusion line with crippling anguish and all the different burdens, those skills need a very serious buff. The recharge times over there are just absurd.

Slight nerf to Expel Hexes, maybe increase recharge to 10-12 and balance it by reducing cast time to 0.75. Another possiblity is linking it to an attribute and making it 1-2 hexes removed.

Weaken Knees and "Coward!"- those skills are inferior in every way to Water Trident. I'm mentioning this because those skills were obviously designed for PvP usage, and they should be in play imo.

Dancing Daggers- those DA sins got on everyone's nerves. Make this blockable, piercing damage, more recharge, stuff like that.

Protective was Kaolai- too powerful. Long duration, good armor buff, decent heal party, and average stats. Possible nerfs- decrease duration by half, increase cast time to 2, or maybe even making it only a self heal when dropped.

IV spike- This isn't impossible to beat but this skill does a bit too much damage for its stats. Combined with Soul Barbs that skill does something like 110 damage at 14 SR, 110x7=770, +deep wound from augury and only 5 recharge, add this with a possible aoe that deals similar damage.
Decrease AoE to adjacent, decrease damage, increase recharge.

ritspike- nerf. Although that spike is very easy to catch with infuse, sometimes the spike is very sharp and the infuser doesn't have a chance. Ancestor's rage is a very powerful skill (5/0.25/8 stats- anybody said overpower?) combined with augury of death that possibly needs a nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I would like to see more defined Rock -> Paper ->Scissors type rolls rather than this unclear skill overlap situation we currently have with casters. eg. Make Mesmers great at anti-caster and Necros great for anti-melee, Eles for spike damage, Rits for utitlities.

This is a bit off topic but I have to express my disagreement with that line of thinking.
Sometimes we pvp community hate anet so much for some wrong decisions that they made and we forget what great ideas they had for a pvp system. I believe that the main ace is pvp characters, but another very good idea is not making such a classifictaion for professions, which exists in most rpgs and makes their pvp boring and predictable. There is no "this is melee basher, this is mage nuker, this is healer, this is archer" in gw, and this is very good. Almost every character can find multiple uses (the exception is assassins) and I think that this contributes to the game pvp.
Just think on how many roles an E/Mo can play. Don't you think it's a nice thing?

moko · Dec 20, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Falling Lotus Strike: damage reduced to +5...10, recharge reduced to 8, if this follows a lead attack you do an additional +6...11 damage.

k, so you want to force every assassin to either just go back to failing spider, or make them use iron palm? random skill nerfing like that won't do much, really.

Quote:

Slight nerf to Expel Hexes, maybe increase recharge to 10-12 and balance it by reducing cast time to 0.75. Another possiblity is linking it to an attribute and making it 1-2 hexes removed.

what? you must be kidding. reason?

Quote:

IV spike- This isn't impossible to beat but this skill does a bit too much damage for its stats. Combined with Soul Barbs that skill does something like 110 damage at 14 SR, 110x7=770, +deep wound from augury and only 5 recharge, add this with a possible aoe that deals similar damage.
Decrease AoE to adjacent, decrease damage, increase recharge.

IV is crap. augury nerf would be enough.

Quote:

Protective was Kaolai- too powerful. Long duration, good armor buff, decent heal party, and average stats. Possible nerfs- decrease duration by half, increase cast time to 2, or maybe even making it only a self heal when dropped.

GW does not need more party heal nerfs..

Quote:

ritspike- nerf. Although that spike is very easy to catch with infuse, sometimes the spike is very sharp and the infuser doesn't have a chance. Ancestor's rage is a very powerful skill (5/0.25/8 stats- anybody said overpower?) combined with augury of death that possibly needs a nerf.

ancestor does indeed need a change, but certainly not due to that spike. also, see above. augury would fix it.

dancing daggers is fine, too. again, the source here is augury.

agree about snaring options.

auspicious is fine too.

AoG does not need to return. you would just see smiters again, bb energy problems. AoM fix has been proposed too often, giving up on it.

TheHaxor · Dec 20, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

AoG does not need to return. you would just see smiters again, bb energy problems.

Agreed. That is one of those skills that should have had the delete button hit on it right after it was created.

I'd like to see a skill rebalance that actually rebalanced, rather than forcing people to change what skills they take because the skills there were taking are no longer viable.