Curse

Seamus Finn · Dec 19, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Seamus Finn the standard skirmish char would probably be just that, the standard. If 99% of balanced builds bring a cripshot, and 1% bring a mind blast ele, and even less bring barrow, I'd say cripshot is closer to being the standard. I guess you could argue that your runner is what you use to deal with a lot of stuff nowadays though, or that maybe there isn't a standard the way gvg is now but whatever.

Well if your point is just to compare the mind blast to whatever other template is run really often and has a self heal you were more off base than I thought.

Dominator1370 · Dec 19, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Price was the skill I thought really broke Necros, because of its enormous duration (only any good in sticky hexes) and just how well it comboed with absolutely everything. Leaving it non-viable is a fair option, but I saw a suggestion recently I liked quite a bit - make it a much cheaper, much faster hex that ends when you miss with an attack, but does significantly more damage.

That sounds an awful lot like Clumsiness...

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Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Glyph of Lesser Energy -> Change to 7...20

That'd be awesome. I might even be tempted to take it down even further at 0 spec, as long as we're buffing the Inspiration line. Good e-management - spec requirement = bad.

Also, Mystic Regen really isn't that bad. Everyone always complains about the cast time, the duration, the recharge, the regen, all kinds of things. Really, though, at 8 spec (which is what most people run, especially on /D builds) you need 3 enchantments for the +9 regen. Mystic Regen itself casts quick and is easily re-appliable, and while I'm not sure exactly what the template we're talking about looks like, I'm willing to bet one of the enchantments that we're using to fuel Mystic Regen is Fire Attunement. 2 second cast time, 45 second recharge. You don't even need to Dshot the thing, any interrupt works. I'll agree Mystic Regen could use some toning down (upping recharge sounds good), and in a skirmish it could be a pain in the ass if (for some reason) you can't interrupt / strip any of the other enchantments fueling it, but really, cripshot the guy and have a warrior come kill it for you. A Warrior who can't get a kill through Mystic Regen needs to find a new job. It'll help keep you alive, sure, but it's not god-mode.

Byron · Dec 19, 2007, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Mind blast is concerning, mainly because of the E/D template. The fact that you can fit bflash and gale on that bar as well as aggro-ranged aoe killing power is disturbing. Mystic regen is icing on the cake for that character. I'm not sure how to fix it without killing the skill tbh. A mild nerf to damage and energy return, perhaps 10-15%. But, the problem is, the skill is fine outside that template (for now). Shrug.

Ancestor's is too easy. A 20% damage reduction or a reworking of the skill like Ensign suggested would be good. Right now, balanced gvg builds need at least one copy.

Glyph needs a hit also, because it is too easy. Should fall to either 7 or 8 energy return on the bottom end; not to make it worthless, but to make it less dominating.

Magebane would probably be okay with 2-3s nerf to recharge. Mainly because there are too many other interrupt options imo; taking 3 spammable interrupts to TA is somehow good atm.

Party heals are problematic, as said. Making the divine healing skills workable in 8v8 play might help. Though, I'm hard pressed as to what to sub out for those skills on the typical WoH/RC backline.

Aura stab is too good imo. The metagame is poised to abuse this skill. KD is one of the chief reasons things die in GvG play. If the mechanic of lasting enchantment is going to continue, then the duration needs to take a hit. I'd personally like to see it 3/4s cast with 2...12 second duration.

Gash to 6 adrenaline. Plz rly need. Want to play sword again.

Barbed arrows is a joke. Agreed with OP on "no longer easily interruptable" buff.

Is it too late to ask for a Blessed Light buff?

bungusmaximus · Dec 19, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Hex builds can be incredibly lame. The issue with Curses right now is how it really doesn't do anything. It needs an elite to put out any degen, it doesn't do any caster shutdown, and its physical shutdown is marginal now; Faint is still strong but not a real solution, and Insidious Parasite, while strong on its own, is really spendy and has horrid synergy with any other disruption. Compare with an Illusion guy, who has Migraine / Arcane Conundrum / Frustration, plus Calculated Risk and snares as anti-Warrior tools, on top of non-sticky hexes such as Clumsiness and friends. Plus stronger degen all around. Even Dom/Inspiration Mesmers are stronger hexers than Necromancers - take a Panic guy, add Spirit Shackles and Empathy.

Reckless and Price were the skills that made Curses viable. Without them they're essentially reduced to Barbs spammers in thumpway builds. Reckless is tons worse than both Blurred Vision and Calculated Risk ATM. I don't know what you do with it, but as the only real source of hex shutdown in the line it really does need to do something. Price was the skill I thought really broke Necros, because of its enormous duration (only any good in sticky hexes) and just how well it comboed with absolutely everything. Leaving it non-viable is a fair option, but I saw a suggestion recently I liked quite a bit - make it a much cheaper, much faster hex that ends when you miss with an attack, but does significantly more damage.

Apart from the fact that that would require quite a reworking of the class, and huge collateral damage in PvE builds you would just get another illusion mes imho. Necro's need a specialism no other chars have. I think defile defenses and corrupt enchantment are interesting skills. Necro's can be geared to punish defense, not to gimp attacks (mesmers remove enchants too, but it's no way near as good as corrupt). Indeed the problem of necromancers at present is that they are a cast-forget class with no real depth. Cast forget is never as rewarding as you would like, playing curse necro isn't hard. It should be made harder and therefore more rewarding indeed. But meh, my suggestion would require quite a reworking as well. Sadly enough, what I really think, is necromancers are beyond repair because they're badly designed to begin with.

DarkNecrid · Dec 19, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Can you not bring up PvE builds as a defense?

As long as areas can be done, and you can make somewhat workable builds, its fine for PvE.

bungusmaximus · Dec 19, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Can you not bring up PvE builds as a defense?

As long as areas can be done, and you can make somewhat workable builds, its fine for PvE.

Depends on wether the solution is worth it. Wrecking something good to create a class we already have doesn't sit too well with me.

DarkNecrid · Dec 19, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Depends on wether the solution is worth it. Wrecking something good to create a class we already have doesn't sit too well with me.

Class you already have...

You mean MM and SV, both of which are simple (MM) or rely on the AI being dumb (SV)...?

EDIT:
Actually for that matter, pretty much all "PvE builds" rely on exploiting the AI, since you can pretty much RUN ANYTHING and succeed, PvE builds are just about exploiting AI to do it faster...why would changing a class so that it can be viable in competitive play (where you have tons of guys whining that necros suck, cause amazingly enough abusing the AI doesn't work when there is no AI there) a bad thing? Don't you think it would be a good change that Necromancer's could become viable and require maybe actual skill to use, rather than relying on being side boarded to a class that is 100% about abusing crappy AI?

Vaga · Dec 19, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Well if your point is just to compare the mind blast to whatever other template is run really often and has a self heal you were more off base than I thought.

I was comparing it to what skirmish char balanced builds generally have to send back to deal with the other team sending a skirmish guy into your base, although I might be wrong in that people send their healer runner guy to deal with it. I just think it's too strong when an ele can easily tank a ranger without doing anything much whilst the ranger has to get 3s trolls off and I know yue + others agree.

Quote:

Also, Mystic Regen really isn't that bad. Everyone always complains about the cast time, the duration, the recharge, the regen, all kinds of things. Really, though, at 8 spec (which is what most people run, especially on /D builds) you need 3 enchantments for the +9 regen. Mystic Regen itself casts quick and is easily re-appliable, and while I'm not sure exactly what the template we're talking about looks like, I'm willing to bet one of the enchantments that we're using to fuel Mystic Regen is Fire Attunement. 2 second cast time, 45 second recharge. You don't even need to Dshot the thing, any interrupt works. I'll agree Mystic Regen could use some toning down (upping recharge sounds good), and in a skirmish it could be a pain in the ass if (for some reason) you can't interrupt / strip any of the other enchantments fueling it, but really, cripshot the guy and have a warrior come kill it for you. A Warrior who can't get a kill through Mystic Regen needs to find a new job. It'll help keep you alive, sure, but it's not god-mode.

Also fire attune lasts what 72 seconds? so precast it before you fight and it will pretty much be up the entire time. Even if you couldn't get it up you still get +6, but it's not like rangers and warriors don't have the same problem of 2s cast for heal sig and 3s for troll.

Yeah ok if you send stuff to go kill the mind blast guy they obviously wont respond at all. They definitely wont send their cripshot or cripshot + warrior to win the skirmish.

bungusmaximus · Dec 19, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Class you already have...

You mean MM and SV, both of which are simple (MM) or rely on the AI being dumb (SV)...?

I mean the curses line, which is either overpriced, or utterly cheesy. If you would make curses more like illusion magic (short duration hexes such as ineptitude/clumsiness), you would just create another mesmer. What I mean to say is tweaking the necro class is only worth it if you give necromancers a unique role (punishing enchantments with corrupt, punishing block with defile defenses, spreading disease). We don't need a class that is so similar to other classes, because the mesmer will always win due to FC.

I wasn't even thinking about SV, the rest of the blood line utterly blows with a good reason. Another design wreck which is best left alone in it's current crappy state.

frojack · Dec 19, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Buffs/nerfs (at 15):

Faint:
-8 degen, 10 secs, 33% slower attack speed.
(Better degen tool, less attack retardation, and less stickiness. Still need 'some' stickies'. Just not at silly durations like 20+ seconds.)

Defile Defenses:
3 sec recharge. 3/4 cast.
(Pretty obvious this one.)

Enfeeble:
1/4 cast.
(Nice way to kill damage on AD spikes. Might be too good though...)

Price:
6 second duration. Miss rate increased to 50%. Damage increased to 120.

Reckless:
Miss rate replaced with -40 or 50 damage reduction. 6 seconds. 15 recharge.
(Less miss, more gimp. Still get to keep adrenaline while your a useless warrior... For 6 seconds.)

Power Flux:
Steal 15 energy. 5 energy cost.

Megabane Shot:
10 second recharge. 20 second disable.
(Haven't you ever wanted 2 d shot's..?)

Pin Down:
10 second recharge.

Critical Chop:
Now that the speed has been nerfed, it's recharge can be restored somewhat.

Sever:
3 AD

Gash:
6 AD

100 Blades:
1 sec activation time. Unlockable.

Hamstring:
5 energy

Wearying Strike:
5 second weakness

Twin Moon Swipe:
1 second activation time.

Ancestors' Rage:
100 damage

Splinter Weapon:
1..50 damage

Xinrae's Weapon:
33%-17% life sac. 10 energy cost. 20 second recharge.

Sundering weapon:
+20 AP on the next 4 attacks.

Guided Weapon:
Ignores the effect of blind. 0..10 Duration. 8 second recharge.

Warmonger's:
15 energy cost. 25 second recharge.
(always thought the cost reduction was insane...)

Signet of Ghostly:
Usable on all binding Rituals. Allied or not.

Mighty was Vorizon:
Get 1 energy rebate per weapon spell used. Gain 100 health when dropped.

Mending Grip:
4 second recharge.

Tranquil Was Tanasen:
All your Restoration spells exept these ashes are recharged when this you drop them.

Blind Was Mingson:
gain 5...40 health per spell cast while holding thse ashes.

Resilient Was Xiko:
Weapon spells cast while holding these ashes also remove 1 condition. If a condition is removed, you lose 1 energy.

Most of these are insane but, har har...

wuzzman · Dec 19, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

what about return curses to what it used to be so I don't have to take a 2 DA Para and an Aegis chain. making another illusion mesmer, is retarded. the depth of a necro has always been to re-shift the attention of the midline away from the mesmer or eles. Give a necro 15 secs and he shits on your build, you have to send some interrupts his way or give him some pressure (and yes when people were complaining about hexway, teams were already farming the ladder by using their BA ranger to camp the necro).

Reason blockway is so effective is that now teams have no choice but to web as much defense as possible because if they don't the real midline casters would get wtf owned every time they try to do their job. Midline now is so shitty that busting through all that defense will still having some defense of your own is not practical anymore. It should have always been rangers interupting necros or ele's, monks busy swapping hex' or pulling conditions off melee allowing for dom mesmer hex's like diversion or shame to do their job more effective, midline characters with off monk support skills handling conditions or hexes, melee skipping between midline casters to create holes in defense with pressure. I could go on but pretty much, shrinking midline options prevent half this shit from being done effective effectively removing alot of the strategy from GvG and preventing more builds from entering the meta. Now it's just train the monks and hope your mesmer can interrupt a ward or aegis. a year ago a caller doing that would get his team killed.

bungusmaximus · Dec 19, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

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