Curse

Robster Lobster · Dec 18, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Giving Aura of Stability a shorter duration but a heal/ prot effect whenever target ally would've been knocked down would mean it's harder to use effectively, but stronger whenever it is, which is always good.

Kyp Jade · Dec 18, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Aura needs to not mean god mod for relic runners in HA. I would like to be able to slot a hammer warrior again someday.

bungusmaximus · Dec 18, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

As long as they nerf aura of stability a little subtle I don't mind. It's very good at low prot, but the amount of easy-to-use KD templates is becoming stupid. Just don't kill the skill.

Lagg · Dec 18, 2007, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Troll Unguent / Healing Signet - Self heals are essential for small scale split tactics (without bringing another defensive character along) and the previously essential options are really questionable now. Both of these could use a nudge upward to compensate for the damage creep the game has gone through.

Thrill of Victory could finally get its healing ability back. It's especially crap compared to Victorious Sweep.

Theo Godscythe · Dec 18, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Seeking Arrows and Choking Gas cost 15 energy. Choking Gas has an extremely low duration (and requires Practiced Stance to be effective) and Seeking ends if an arrow fails to hit. A second of blindess or an evading foe could end your prep - way too fragile.

Spamming Savage and Disrupting will eat your energy far too quickly hence nobody uses both in sync and Disrupting's recharge is a nuisance, too.

Magebane on the other hand combines the effect of Seeking Arrows, the disabling feature of Distracting and no loss of damage which cannot be blocked all in one 5-energy, 5s recharge attack.

This is why Magebane is so strong.

Or it could be because it's an ELITE!

Div · Dec 18, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Mystic regen is pretty overpowered. It acts as a great cover enchant because of its 1/4 second cast time and 5r but also allows templates like the mblast ele dR run to pump earth prayers up to 8 and basically become invincible.

I love how you say that ele is invincible, but I've seen many guilds from #1 to #10000 try to run it, and a good majority of the eles end up not getting anything done or dying.

Quote:

Against a ranger this guy will eventually win (obviously the loser will just run away but if they don't) unless the ranger gets a lucky dshot which really shouldn't happen just because it takes a lot more skill to play a ranger than it does mind blast ele.

Who cares about 1v1 fights? Go back to AB, RA, or join a PvE guild hosting 1v1 tourneys if you really enjoy 1v1. Again, have you ever tried running it in a team build? Individually, it's easy to mash 1214121414, but it's the strategies involved that makes it so good as a split character.

Quote:

Nothing really needs to be changed that much and the game will be balanced, it's just getting a little boring at the moment. I think it's mostly because teams like rawr keep winning monthlies and no one has really proven otherwise that their build and the other vod defenceway builds aren't dominant (maybe it's because they are?). If dR or DF could win a few monthlies and everyone started running their fun builds the game might be a bit more entertaining but as it is facing eurospike every time is just a borefest.

I point you to http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4188

If party healing didn't get wtfpwned, DF would win tourneys. If we could learn to not disconnect or error, dR would win tourneys.

jaeharys targaryen · Dec 18, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

"Fear Me!" - This is the skill that continues to make Steady Stance button mashers a problem; it goes absolutely apeshit with an adrenal engine fueling it. I'd like to see it get the "Watch Yourself!" / "Go for the Eyes!" treatment with a shortish recharge; it might want to get kicked up to 6 adrenaline as well.

wont do much.
only zergers(i.e. steady stancers) who have some brains actualy try to squeeze out a second fear me before going for ss+drunken again(watching fear me be pumped from 3 to 4 and wasting 3 adren is something that most idiots miss)

as long as steady stances recharge>fear me's recharge the same thing happens.

atleast, i think so. i dont claim to play HA enough to know the intricacies of steady stance

makosi · Dec 18, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Godscythe

Or it could be because it's an ELITE!

So is Quick Shot, what's your point?

Vaga · Dec 18, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Mystic regen is 10 energy, not 5. I love how you say that ele is invincible, but I've seen many guilds from #1 to #10000 try to run it, and a good majority of the eles end up not getting anything done or dying.

Who cares about 1v1 fights? Go back to AB, RA, or join a PvE guild hosting 1v1 tourneys if you really enjoy 1v1. Again, have you ever tried running it in a team build? Individually, it's easy to mash 1214121414, but it's the strategies involved that makes it so good as a split character.

5r = recharge i.e it gets stripped you just put it back up again like you want to be able to do with a cover enchant.

People who can't play a mblast ele are obviously bad, so many guilds put their worst player on bsurge so you can probably attribute some of the failing to giving their worst player an important role, maybe thats a bad assumption? I also wasn't referring to how difficult it is to play a split guy, I was referring to the bar itself. You can argue instagib sins have a bunch of strategies involved in collapsing at the right time and what not but at the end of the day the bar itself was still too easy to play considering its strength. The golden standard of skirmish guys in gvg is the cripshot so it makes sense to compare the mblast guy with a cripshot.

With the mblast guy you guys run, you can basically send it off to go kill npc's and depending on what they send back you just run away with your great speed boost or if it suits you 1v1 it. Just the fact that it can eventually win 1v1 vs a cripshot poses a whole set of problems for the other team which I don't think anyone would mind if playing a mind blast ele was harder than playing a ranger. 1v1 fights don't happen often because people know what beats what for the most part, and there's generally a more useful thing to do but they still hold some importance.

Getting away from 1v1's it's still an extremely strong skill on splits, +9 regen , 1/4 second cast, 5 recharge is pretty sweet. Everyone else is trying to get off 2s heal sigs and 3s trolls while the ele just pops mystic regen when needed. In the past eles have always had to get 3/4-1s casts off which i think has been pretty important.

Anyway like I said I don't really care if it's nerfed because I kind of like the strong mblast template and dR build, but I do think it's overpowered.

Quote:

I point you to http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4188

If party healing didn't get wtfpwned, DF would win tourneys. If we could learn to not disconnect or error, dR would win tourneys.

Maybe so, I was mostly commenting on my dislike of everyone running eurospike and what I thought was contributing to it i.e problems with passive defense and how people copy the guilds who win tournaments (rawr/ew most recently, who both ran boring eurospike).

Div · Dec 18, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

People who can't play a mblast ele are obviously bad, so many guilds put their worst player on bsurge so you can probably attribute some of the failing to giving their worst player an important role, maybe thats a bad assumption?

Again, skill balance should not revolve around rank 10k guilds or their ladder playstyle. Any good guild has a set frontline, midline, backline, and their backups. No top guild is going to stick a player who doesn't play an ele on any ele role. Only rank 10k guilds scrapping for people do it.

Quote:

With the mblast guy you guys run, you can basically send it off to go kill npc's and depending on what they send back you just run away with your great speed boost or if it suits you 1v1 it. Just the fact that it can eventually win 1v1 vs a cripshot poses a whole set of problems for the other team which I don't think anyone would mind if playing a mind blast ele was harder than playing a ranger.

Comparing the 1v1 capabilities of the E/D and a cripshot is retarded. The cripshot's power lies in the fact that it maintains control of mobility. The E/D has little it can do for movement control. The snaring capabilities of the cripshot allow it to crip any target and then call for a warrior to kill it. And if you really want, I'll 1v1 you on a ranger to show that it's not that easy for the E/D to take me down.

Again, I love your attempts at theorycrafting, but have you actually run that build successfully against decent opponents in the top 100-200? If you haven't, I suggest you do and then come back to post. If you're not going to post any more constructive stuff and want to linger on the argument on mystic regen, go start another thread if you want, but keep your unproven ideas out of this thread.

Seamus Finn · Dec 18, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

The golden standard of skirmish guys in gvg is the cripshot so it makes sense to compare the mblast guy with a cripshot.

The golden standard of a skirmish player cannot actually be a cripshot because the cripshot can effectively kill nothing(other than archers which takes about an hour) against a team that has brains and doesn't want the ranger killing anything. So in effect, the cripshot in many situations is just the assist man and needs a buddy to get a lot of stuff done. I suppose a Burning Arrow ranger is closer to the standard skirmish/solo ganker that the mind blast is(if the comparison was even worth making).

The mind blaster is a strong skirmish template, but becomes rather flimsy at 7 skills so you are already saccing a sig on the charater. Also, the mind blaster really shouldn't have any chance of killing a ranger in a 1v1 fight simply because both characters are so resilient that either can back away before the fight becomes fatal.

Most importantly, the mind blaster only looks good because he is about the second resilient, flexible, splittable character to be successfully implemented into a build filled with the run of the mill "balanced" templates(honestly it saddens me that we haven't/can't find an assassin bar with similar capabilities). The problem with the mind blaster is that he is one of only a few. We actually need MORE templates like this.

By the way, playing a decent ele in the presence of a poor ranger/mes is a breeze. Playing ele against a competant character with some shutdown is difficult.

Riotgear · Dec 18, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Godscythe

Or it could be because it's an ELITE!

The point is that Magebane provides everything you could possibly want in an interrupt skill. I wasn't under the impression that Rangers needed more interrupt power.

Ensign · Dec 18, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

That said, there's plenty of room for insp line buffing... but it shouldn't outperform GoLE's typical net 10-enr gain at a monk-level inspiration spec.

Getting a decent Inspiration spec on a Monk is going to involve dropping one of your three attributes at the very least, which I consider to be a pretty significant concession. No individual Inspiration skill needs to provide anywhere near the energy of GLE; the value is providing a useful effect in addition to the energy gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The only thing you can really do on trolls is reduce to 2s, or maybe make it last a little longer. The regen is already near-max. I'd worry if the armor penalty on healing sig were dropped that some caster somewhere might figure out how to use it.

2c on Troll is what I have in mind. On Healsig dropping the armor penalty somewhat makes the most sense. The biggest issue with Healsig is how it becomes questionable if you don't have a block stance of some sort, and block stances are hard (though possible) to fit onto modern Warrior bars. I don't think dropping the cast time on Healsig is a good idea, and Warriors can go W/D for Natural Healing if that's really important to them anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Curses being nerfed out of the game bothers me a bit as well. Hex removal is made more solid now and the entire line strikes me as overpriced and/or slow. It's just that hex builds are so lame so often.

Hex builds can be incredibly lame. The issue with Curses right now is how it really doesn't do anything. It needs an elite to put out any degen, it doesn't do any caster shutdown, and its physical shutdown is marginal now; Faint is still strong but not a real solution, and Insidious Parasite, while strong on its own, is really spendy and has horrid synergy with any other disruption. Compare with an Illusion guy, who has Migraine / Arcane Conundrum / Frustration, plus Calculated Risk and snares as anti-Warrior tools, on top of non-sticky hexes such as Clumsiness and friends. Plus stronger degen all around. Even Dom/Inspiration Mesmers are stronger hexers than Necromancers - take a Panic guy, add Spirit Shackles and Empathy.

Reckless and Price were the skills that made Curses viable. Without them they're essentially reduced to Barbs spammers in thumpway builds. Reckless is tons worse than both Blurred Vision and Calculated Risk ATM. I don't know what you do with it, but as the only real source of hex shutdown in the line it really does need to do something. Price was the skill I thought really broke Necros, because of its enormous duration (only any good in sticky hexes) and just how well it comboed with absolutely everything. Leaving it non-viable is a fair option, but I saw a suggestion recently I liked quite a bit - make it a much cheaper, much faster hex that ends when you miss with an attack, but does significantly more damage.

Otherwise I think Curses is reasonably balanced, simply missing key abilities that the character needs to be playable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The reality is, skirmish teams without dedicate healers lose to skirmish teams with dedicated healers, and a few self-heal buffs aren't going to change that.

Self heals are most important in 1 and 2 man skirmishes, a size at which a dedicated healer is a liability. A Warrior and a Ranger can certainly kill a defensive character on their own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Mystic regen is pretty overpowered.

You could up the recharge on it and I wouldn't argue at all; I've been saying for months that I think it's silly that it recharges so quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Against a ranger this guy will eventually win (obviously the loser will just run away but if they don't)

I don't know what Rangers you're playing against, but I'm pretty sure they're terribad. The skill you want to DShot in Mind Blast, which is kinda spammed and has a cast time you should be able to hit. If the Ele loses the Ranger has Cripshot. But realistically it's a dumb stalemate that only retards fight 1v1; in reality the Ele runs away, or gets Criplocked while a Warrior falls back to kill, and it turns into a bigger skirmish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

I think even without mystic regen the mblast ele can still work though since it has a better speed boost than most templates in gvg.

We ran the guy for quite some time without Mystic Regen, and it isn't a huge liability; the regen only really matters in 1-2 games out of 10 anyway. It stuck mostly because it is good in those games, and the Ressig is rarely very good because that guy is split so often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

I'd also like to see a blackout buff so that you can get a good duration out of it on rangers

I love Blackout Rangers, and it's a real tradeoff now that we have Mending Touch. The way you get them is with a 3...6 duration, or 2...5 and dropping the self disable to 4 seconds. I don't know if Aura of Stability has made the game safe for 3 second Gale again, but that's something I'm really scared of since Gale spiking is so effective. Both skills are playable as is and don't really need buffs.

Vaga · Dec 19, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Hi. I make up my lack of skill by insulting other players. I'm secretly a cute fluffy guy and need hugs. Help!

I was mostly just comparing the 1v1s to add to my argument on how strong mystic regen is. I know that realistically no one good is going to stand around and 1v1 for 5 minutes.

Seamus Finn the standard skirmish char would probably be just that, the standard. If 99% of balanced builds bring a cripshot, and 1% bring a mind blast ele, and even less bring barrow, I'd say cripshot is closer to being the standard. I guess you could argue that your runner is what you use to deal with a lot of stuff nowadays though, or that maybe there isn't a standard the way gvg is now but whatever.

Skye Marin · Dec 19, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Nerfs:

Augury of Death -> Requires a critical hit or dual attack hit from the caster to trigger the Deep Wound, remove shadow step

Magebane Shot -> Up cost to 10 (from 5)

"Fear Me!" -> effects 1..3 adjacent foes (current effect is all nearby)

Channeling -> Cap energy gain per cast to 1..5 (instead of unlimited)

Glyph of Lesser Energy -> Change to 7...20

Buffs:

Fast Casting -> Should give a small energy return to mesmers for Inspiration and Fast Casting spells used, something like 1 energy for every 3 ranks in Fast Casting

All Glyphs -> 1/4 second casting time

And a special Buff focus on Elite Energy Management (I've done plenty of math here, but if something doesn't add up or is still under/overpowered, drop a line) ->

Ether Renewal - 10 duration on 5/1/20, but cap energy gained to 0..6
Energy Boon - Increase energy gained to 10..25
Ether Prism - Increase cost to 15
Second Wind - Reduce casting time to 1

Boon Signet - reduce casting time to 1/4, increase energy to 3 per enchantment
Healer's Covenant - remove healing reduction
Healing Light - increase energy gain to 7, lower recharge to 3, lower casting time to 3/4
Peace and Harmony - increase energy regen to +2, reduce duration to 5..30

Offering of Blood - Don't sacrifice if your HP is under 50%
Cultist's Fervor - Reduce sacrifice to 15..5%

Reclaim Essence - Can now target any summoned creature
Spirit Channeling - Reduce recharge to 20
Wielder's Zeal - Reduce cost to 5
Signet of Spirit - Instant recharge, but is disabled for 15 seconds if you gain the energy

Energy Drain - Gain 3 points of energy per energy stolen
Lyssa's Aura - Reduce recharge to 10, allow cast on any ally, replace "steal" with "gain"
Power Leech - Reduce cost to 5
Symbols of Inspiration - Increase duration to 10..30, change energy gain to 5

moriz · Dec 19, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

these days, monks are not really limited by energy. instead, they are more limited by skill recharge than anything else (that's why you see so many running a dual 20/20 heal set and an enchanting prot staff, instead of a +30hp caster sword with +30hp focus like before). buffing elite energy management won't have much of an effect, except maybe for use on other caster chars. even then, i don't see them used unless you really overbuff them.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Sorry Mokone just going to put this idea out there

Make Augury of Death Reduce healing power instead of giving a deep wound.
Make its reduction scalable.
This doesn't spike like a DW does, but it makes a monks job a bit harder to do.

To make Mark of Death not look inferior by far.
Give it 2...4 heal degeneration, and perhaps increase the duration a bit.

Just putting this out there.

Also reduce Lingering Curse to 20 energy (or maybe less, not sure right now)

You lose 10% health, 25 energy its very interruptable at 2 second cast.
On the Bright Side they loose all enchantments and heal at a weaker extent.
This skill just appears to be a little to pricey In my opinion.
Loosing 10% health out of 600 is 60 health, putting them to 540, it also takes 25 energy, which is rather pricy, quite a few necromancer skills are pricey. This skill being a 2 second cast, makes it easy for a ranger to interrupt, all these weakness's.

The energy cost should be reduced.

Making these skills give heal reduction puts more pressure on healers, since there being less effective.
Hex removal is frequent, but at 10 seconds for lingering it's not that bad, augury and Mark of Death (needs a duration buff I think, or a recharge reduction). Means that healers, who are all very potent in this game, have their job harder.

Ego · Dec 19, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

these days, monks are not really limited by energy. instead, they are more limited by skill recharge than anything else (that's why you see so many running a dual 20/20 heal set and an enchanting prot staff, instead of a +30hp caster sword with +30hp focus like before). buffing elite energy management won't have much of an effect, except maybe for use on other caster chars. even then, i don't see them used unless you really overbuff them.

I honestly don't think this is the main reason whatsoever.

All prot skills mainly used have 2 seconds recharge.

The healing skills have a little longer recharge but seeing as the "Healmonk" mostly uses the prot skills on his bar anyway.

The reason people uses all these fast cast sets is cause the meta is all about interupts. If you don't have the sets you're a much easier target to PLeaks and D-Shots.

Div · Dec 19, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

these days, monks are not really limited by energy.

Are we talking about the same game? :O

The only time monks aren't limited by energy and by recharge is when you're spamming skills under channeling in HA. But even in HA, you run out of energy.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Dec 19, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

I don't really hate anything in GvG, with the exception of Clumsiness Mesmers. Some moderate buffs would be nice.