Curse

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 18, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

bring back lod + less npcs + 35+ vod + izzy implementing or at least looking at divine+ensign's balance ideas = win

Lordhelmos · Jan 19, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

You know what would be funny? During VoD, replace the guild lord's attacks with Turai Ossa's from the bonus mission pack and watch him Godzilla everything. Now that would be awesome to watch! Lol (no im not serious, but you have to admit thats cool!)

Riotgear · Jan 19, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

IMO, NPCs should be providing a myriad of assorted (read: stacking) shout buffs to teammates. That's an advantage you can't really eliminate via focusing strictly on the ability set they bring and shitty AI.

DarkNecrid · Jan 19, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

IMO, NPCs should be providing a myriad of assorted (read: stacking) shout buffs to teammates. That's an advantage you can't really eliminate via focusing strictly on the ability set they bring and shitty AI.

New ones made just for them or already existing? Already existing would either remove certain shouts from skill bars, or let them be kept up forever, new ones would just be asking for imba situations with current ones....?

Riotgear · Jan 19, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

New ones made just for them or already existing? Already existing would either remove certain shouts from skill bars, or let them be kept up forever, new ones would just be asking for imba situations with current ones....?

New ones. Not permanent, just free monster skill shouts with duration matching the recharge.

Means that if the other team has more NPCs, they're gonna be buffed bad and you have to deal with it.

Zabe · Jan 19, 2008, 01:57 PM // 13:57

I don't know was it intented, but I obsed few games and one topgame I obsed, I saw this thing happening where other team had few archers and bodyguard from NPC's alive, but the other team had only lord. The thing was that instead of just sniping each other the Blue teams lord tried first to kill the bodyguard of Red team, which was in melee range, I never saw it to die because it was healed up but I wonder that is this just good thinking from ANet?

The good sides I can now when I have played few games is the fact that in VoD, if the other team is on 15-30% DP's, that team doesn't get instantly exploded in VoD.

Ego · Jan 19, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Now I dunno about all this new skills to the npc's.

But what's up with them all being CRAZY.

Burton2000 · Jan 19, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Dont know what your on about. Npcs dont lose agro at vod its been like that for quite a while.

Bankai · Jan 21, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

What about having different NPCs for normal play and VoD?

Before VoD, NPCs have their normal skills. They act normally, and are not too hard to kill.
When VoD starts, the NPCs get an increased attack of 50%, and get Precision shot, warrior's cunning and pure strike added to their bar.

This will give a huge boost to make-shift splits, though dedicated splits will also get a huge boost. But with this, it's possible to still split and gank the enemy, while NPCs are still extremely deadly at VoD, especially with 100% health.

Andrew Patrick · Jan 21, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Is it just me, or have you guys noticed an increase in the number of guilds resigning rather early in matches? We played a dozen matches this weekend, and had at least 4 guilds resign within the first 10 minutes when they were unable to spike past our monks' healing and prot, and another 2 or so resign just before VoD because we had a pretty significant morale advantage. Have you guys noticed an increase in this, and do you feel it is related to the NPC change or just coincidental?

My thoughts is it was either them realizing their spike couldn't get through (because about half of those were flawless) or it may be due to a decrease in the chances of a come-back victory at VoD. Am I imagining things, or has this become more common vs last weekend? We were winning, but in some cases a single Morale boost would have made them even-up so it seemed like a premature resign. You would think they would at least try a hail Mary play at VoD...

Thoughts?

DarkNecrid · Jan 21, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Is it just me, or have you guys noticed an increase in the number of guilds resigning rather early in matches? We played a dozen matches this weekend, and had at least 4 guilds resign within the first 10 minutes when they were unable to spike past our monks' healing and prot, and another 2 or so resign just before VoD because we had a pretty significant morale advantage. Have you guys noticed an increase in this, and do you feel it is related to the NPC change or just coincidental?

My thoughts is it was either them realizing their spike couldn't get through (because about half of those were flawless) or it may be due to a decrease in the chances of a come-back victory at VoD. Am I imagining things, or has this become more common vs last weekend? We were winning, but in some cases a single Morale boost would have made them even-up so it seemed like a premature resign. You would think they would at least try a hail Mary play at VoD...

Thoughts?

People are frustrated with the massive defense, and there is no real reason to even bother to keep playing past a certain time now, especially now that VoD doesn't help break up people with massive defense etc.

Andrew Patrick · Jan 21, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

We are not that defense heavy of a build really. Certainly not a 2 aegis 1 DA blockway or anything heh. I run a WoH/Infuse and we have an RC with Aegis, but no second Aegis or DA. We have a Bsurge, but their Mesmers usually do a pretty good job of keeping their effectiveness down.

I'd say in most of the cases, they were blocking or blinding our melee as much as we were blocking or blinding theirs.

Iotan · Jan 21, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Is it just me, or have you guys noticed an increase in the number of guilds resigning rather early in matches?

.....

Thoughts?

I noticed this happening about ~3 months ago. Teams, some in the top 100 even, would resign about halfway through the match, so this isn't really a recent occurrence.

I attribute it largely to the builds being run. So few teams stray from the W/W/R/P/Me/Mo/Mo/Rt template that when they see their primary strategy not working (spiking through the defense) they just resign. Despite having the Ranger and Rit who are good split characters, any decent team now knows how to respond to any split after facing the same build in every game. If you face a mirror-build and can't spike then there's practically nothing you can do. The Rit can handle any 1 man split, the Rit and Ranger for 2 man, and the Rit, Ranger + NPCs for 3 man. A fake split and then collapse on the stand team doesn't work because there's enough defense in the 2 monks, Paragon and Mes to survive a mismatch for long enough until the rest of the team gets back. To get a good split working can easily take 5+ minutes, and with VoD coming at 18 minutes many teams don't have the chance to try it. Some teams run a fire ele or water ele now over the paragon, which is good to see as they have more options tactics-wise.

Also I'd say that teams resign because normal ladder games are so meaningless. A loss doesn't really mean much and most teams would probably rather resign at 6 minutes once they see themselves losing than lose at 22 minutes, even if there was a slim chance of them winning. Months of losing to blockway at VoD doesn't give a team much hope of a turnaround then, even if the mechanic has changed slightly.

Lordhelmos · Jan 21, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Is it just me, or have you guys noticed an increase in the number of guilds resigning rather early in matches? We played a dozen matches this weekend, and had at least 4 guilds resign within the first 10 minutes when they were unable to spike past our monks' healing and prot, and another 2 or so resign just before VoD because we had a pretty significant morale advantage. Have you guys noticed an increase in this, and do you feel it is related to the NPC change or just coincidental?

My thoughts is it was either them realizing their spike couldn't get through (because about half of those were flawless) or it may be due to a decrease in the chances of a come-back victory at VoD. Am I imagining things, or has this become more common vs last weekend? We were winning, but in some cases a single Morale boost would have made them even-up so it seemed like a premature resign. You would think they would at least try a hail Mary play at VoD...

Thoughts?

My thoughts on this is that the change to VoD really reduced the emphasis on NPC's and pressure play. The flagstand and morale really has become lot more important due to the fact that a team can't just rely on an AoE splinter bomb at VoD to wipe the enemy team due to the removal of the health reduction effect. VoD was really supposed to force confrontation between two teams, and in essence served as a sudden death trigger. However, that effect is alot less potent in the new VoD because blockwebs and defensive play is alot more effective during VoD. This is because teams no longer have the fear of death from having low hp.

Before is was extremely dangerous for my warrior to frenzy at VoD, but now its so easy to stay alive. The added NPC skills did little to make up for the way that VoD was changed. Now VoD just leads to longer, more drawn out games. This is mainly because people can still effectively keep their teams alive through VoD pressure and battle over the flagstand, which has become way more important in VoD.

VoD has essentially went from "sudden death" to "overtime."

The entire meta surrounding GvG is still extremely defensive. I'd like you to question where all of this defensive play is coming from? I can tell you now that it's not the backline. Many of teams are heavily reliant on midline defense. The blockway thread has several good reason on why teams are "shoring up their offense" (as said by ensign) in order to make up for the lack of the backline to provide a solid foundation in order to power the team.

One has to take into account that those 2 monks in the backline are the first layer of foundation for keeping 6 other people alive. In this current meta (which an emphasis on slower singular heals + has a lack of condensed skills that allow monks to effectively juggle hex removal, bringing redbars up, and prots) can the monks of today really do that? The answer is simply no. Current monk builds have an extremely difficult time managing a large influx of damage /conditions/effects that waterfall over the rest of the team.

As a result the metagame has shifted survival power of the team to the midline. Monks have simply become support tools who's purpose is to save people that the blockweb can't. Are the monks the primary force keeping players alive in a pressure battle? Their protection and healing power has been reduced to the point where they no longer have sovereign power in keeping players alive, so instead their role has shifted towards simply saving people with singular prots + infuse/WoH.

Monks of this meta are in deep water was the midline collapses, and when that happens theres not much they can do to save their team. The meta has a huge emphasis on midline defense. Almost all of these defenses come in the form of skills that provide partywide support at the cost of player mobility.

Wards, Aegis, Shouts. Everything is limited to earshot range, which prevents defensive meta-based balance teams from splitting effectively. The result of these skill balances has shifted survival power of the team from the backline to the midline. This was a the wrong direction to take party survival, because now the midline is forced to carry the responsibility of keeping the team alive and can't build for anything else.

This is why so many teams are playing turtling, resigning prematurely, and games are being drawn out. Its not because they can't spike through monks, its because the midline of the enemy team is too powerful for them to crack. With VoD change, hopes of forcing a hail mary spearhead attack are dashed. This is because teams no longer halve the health reduction effect that would otherwise give them an edge in breaking enemy's defensive web with overwhelming AoE dmg during VoD. Because VoD no longer forces sudden death, teams are able to midline turtle far beyond VoD.

If a team is struggling against an overpowered midline, nothing is dying, and the enemy boosts morale, of course they are going to resign. If they couldn't crack the enemy team before the +10% bonus, how the hell are the going to break the enemy team with it? If a team turtles the flagstand with a defensive web and the opposing team can't kill the enemy runner or becomes too DP'ed out to force past them and gank him; they have no hope of turning the tide of the game (as we all know, fighting a blockway team with morale is hell, you might as well beat a colossus to death with fluffy pillows; I guess most players would just rather resign that deal with it, who can blame them?).

The midline defense of this meta is simply too powerful and constrictive. It forces defensive play and limits splittability due to the range restrictions of all of these blockway skills. The changes to VoD have only enticed players to camp in webs and draw out games because now they know they can survive VoD with their defenses, wheras with the old VoD that wasn't an option. In the past people would turtle to VoD only to lose to a meganuke from a mediocre team.

Thats the current state of GvG as I see it Andrew and why people are playing so defensively. The nerfs to guild wars have shifted too much survival power from the backline to the midline, where it only creates stagnant play. Power of survivability should be redirected to the backline, where monks can use strong multi-tasking builds to support the team so that the midline is no longer forced to play damage umbrella.

To put it simply, midline defenses are simply too powerful and backline defenses and survivability are simply too weak. Andrew how many games have you seen where a team comes back after their midline breaks? It's almost a certain party wipe once the umbrella cracks. It's an issue of power distribution between the mid and backlines. The back has simply doesn't have enough survival power to carry the team, so the power of team survival shifts to a place where it is potent: the midline. People are having a hard time running pressure and pushing, because their monks simply don't have the power to carry the team forward, that and when the team leaves the blockweb, people start to die.

I do appreciate your initiated to get community feedback and attempts to improve the state of the game Andrew. I hope this helps shed some light on things. Its not just VoD, its not just this skill balance, or a few tweaks here and there, its really a long history of power shifts dating back from prophecies that have lead to a metagame like this.

As to answering the question of what VoD has done, I think it fails. It fails because it aids defensive play by no longer promoting a situation where both teams face a life of death situation. But as a I said, the issue of what VoD is now is simply part of a much large balance issue.

Metaphorically this metagame is a monster. It comes if the form of a giant hulking minotaur with a really big chest, really big arms, and tiny little chopstick legs to support its massive build. Put some muscle in those legs and you will have less problems, I promise.

Tul · Jan 21, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Is it just me, or have you guys noticed an increase in the number of guilds resigning rather early in matches? (...) Have you guys noticed an increase in this, and do you feel it is related to the NPC change or just coincidental?

I would say that has been going on for quite some time, certainly long before last WE update. In fact, more like since champ points were in, or perhaps AT.

Some guilds are focused on tournaments, and see no point in going for an excrutiating victory on random match in a "build down" situation, as that would not happen in tournament play. Some players are only there for champ points farming, and the pugs they are in only care for as much victories as possible provided the rating stays over the threshold. Some teams simply lack the imagination and the individualities to improvise new battle plans if the primary one fails (say, 8v8 stand fighting).

Lack of motivation, lack of level, that is nothing new and I do not see why it would be linked to last update.

EDIT: Slow typing ftw, Iotan said it first !

Captain Robo · Jan 21, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Is it just me, or have you guys noticed an increase in the number of guilds resigning rather early in matches? We played a dozen matches this weekend, and had at least 4 guilds resign within the first 10 minutes when they were unable to spike past our monks' healing and prot, and another 2 or so resign just before VoD because we had a pretty significant morale advantage. Have you guys noticed an increase in this, and do you feel it is related to the NPC change or just coincidental?

My thoughts is it was either them realizing their spike couldn't get through (because about half of those were flawless) or it may be due to a decrease in the chances of a come-back victory at VoD. Am I imagining things, or has this become more common vs last weekend? We were winning, but in some cases a single Morale boost would have made them even-up so it seemed like a premature resign. You would think they would at least try a hail Mary play at VoD...

Thoughts?

Ask the developers. I'm sure they'll be able to tell you exactly why they're doing everything right and the problem is most certainly with everyone else.

dwchang · Jan 21, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Is it just me, or have you guys noticed an increase in the number of guilds resigning rather early in matches? We played a dozen matches this weekend, and had at least 4 guilds resign within the first 10 minutes when they were unable to spike past our monks' healing and prot, and another 2 or so resign just before VoD because we had a pretty significant morale advantage. Have you guys noticed an increase in this, and do you feel it is related to the NPC change or just coincidental?

My thoughts is it was either them realizing their spike couldn't get through (because about half of those were flawless) or it may be due to a decrease in the chances of a come-back victory at VoD. Am I imagining things, or has this become more common vs last weekend? We were winning, but in some cases a single Morale boost would have made them even-up so it seemed like a premature resign. You would think they would at least try a hail Mary play at VoD...

Thoughts?

Honestly I've seen this for at least a year ever since the normal ladder k-value went to 5. I think it's a time vs. reward issue where waiting around another 10+ minutes isn't worth the 2 or 3 rating you might gain with a comeback while losing so little rating and finding a new match is more worthwhile.

rohara · Jan 21, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Thoughts?

25-30 minute 8v8 blockfests with little or no kills aren't fun. Balanced play is stale.

Builds like sineptitude, mind ele splits, and spike builds - though often frowned upon - will only become more popular as more people get frustrated with the blockweb in GvG.

Lordhelmos · Jan 21, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

25-30 minute 8v8 blockfests with little or no kills aren't fun. Balanced play is stale.

Builds like sineptitude, mind ele splits, and spike builds - though often frowned upon - will only become more popular as more people get frustrated with the blockweb in GvG.

It's not balanced, midline defense is overpowered. This is the price balancers are paying for killing boonprot and LoD.

Kaon · Jan 21, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

One thing we always did in vZ while pugging was resigning to <1200 teams (this also kept our rating in check). But you seem to be talking about people just resigning early.

Such a thing rarely happens to me, but generally people resign as soon as the situation is quite hopeless or has a VERY small chance of increasing. This is usually because the builds are so similar that you cant suddenly exploit a weakness of the opponent.

Another reason why people sometimes resign early is because some people (*ahem* german emos) cannot stand a losing situation and instantly give all hope as soon as things dont go perfect. That's just a charactertrait that will always exist.

It's always happened, but not that much. Perhaps you didn't look at the situation correctly from their side, or was it just coincidence. One thing that did influence this is as i said build differentiation. But this doesnt count as much in lower level (which i assumed you played it as you guys dont seem to have a top50 guild).