Curse

Andrew Patrick · Dec 21, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

General PvP Issues:

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*Tournament Reward guy needs EotN stuff.

Last I was told about this, this was at the "on the way" stage. That was a while ago, though, so I will follow up.

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*Tournament Reward guy could use some special PvP only looking stuff to hook PvE'ers into PvP!

I believe the reason why rewards are more and more often available in both PvE and PvP is that we do not want to *force* people to play a style they do not want to play simply to get X item. Making what used to be considered "PvE drops" available through PvP was a step in that direction.

Granted, there are some cases where a reward is specific to one or the other (such as Cartographer or Hero titles) but for items, generally speaking we would rather let players gain them in the format that is most fun for them. PvE players can get it in PvE and PvP players can get it in PvP.

Now, we are all about making PvP enticing to PvE players. The Zaishen chest is something that has a lot of cross-over appeal. But it is better to make something very attractive to a player, rather than make it a necessity.

These are generalizations, of course, and that's not to say there will never be items that can only be gained via PvP or PvE. And it's certainly not to say there are not items that are already limited to one or the other. If fact, the in-game ATS rewards mentioned in this week's announcement may very well draw some players into PvP, simply because they want those items. But items with such limited availability are reserved for very special occasions, while the reward points system is more in place to allow PvP players to get the cool items PvE players have, without having to play PvE if they don't want to.

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*5 Tokens = 1 Zaishen Key. There is no reason not to allow this, because the #'s all work out anyways. Seriously. Right now its kind of like, "lawl you wasted your faction!!!!" and I think a slap in the face is the last thing the PvP community needs.

I have already been told this will not happen. Please don't think I am unsympathetic to you guys. I spent my faction on tokens too. But for a number of reasons, the designers do not intend on allowing you to use tokens to purchase keys. If I hear anything more specific, I will let you all know.

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*Do not allow Heroes in all PvP modes, cept scrimming.

How can you say that would be an inherently desired change when there are people out there who clearly enjoy using heroes? This is not a new topic by any means, and I know it has been discussed to death, but if nobody wanted heroes in PvP, no one would be using them, and there would be no need for us to be having this conversation.

I understand the desire for them to be removed, and I have passed that request on numerous times, but this, like most things, is not as black and white as it seems. There are strong opinions on both sides of this argument, and no solution that will make everyone 100% happy. Limiting the number of heroes a team can take into battle is a compromise the designers feel works well for the game. If this topic is still being discussed internally, I will pass on any new information that is available.

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*Maybe enhance scrimming a bit, as per Tiyuri's suggestion here: http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum....php?t=457650&

I read that thread a while back, and while I think it looks like an awesome system, it would entail completely remaking the scrimmage system from the ground up. I don't think such a large-scale project is likely given the fact that the dev team is working hard on GW2 at this point, but ideas in that thread may be useful in designing aspects of Guild Wars 2.

Skill Balance Issues:

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*Too many useless skills and useless lines. We need more variety. Joke skills are good for a laugh....for the first week. Then they make you wonder whats up. Can you make skills like Mending, Otyugh's Cry, etc etc viable? Look at Elites even...stuff like Amity. They just make you go "uhhh".
*On that note, we need some skill balances that are more than 5 skills at a time, seriously. Buff/nerf entire lines if you have to, and then change stuff accordingly. Right now you have PvP players giving up because it seems like you guys don't care about that side of the game anymore. All a 5 skill balance every month or so is going to do is eventually bring everyone to running the exact 8 builds everywhere ALL the time. You need to shake up entire lines, and closely buff/nerf it when it needs to be, to show people you are interested. Sure, the balance will be wack, but the balance has been wack for a good year or so now.
*On THAT note, if you have to, maybe hire another skill balancer or something? I know Izzy has most of his time being ate up by TF2 (who can blame him ;p) and GW2, throw another guy on there! I don't care if its Ensign, or you Andrew, or someone else...but you definitely need SOMEONE.
*Fix Curses, Deadly Arts (crap since DP was nerfed, since DP is nerfed buff skills!!!), and all the other useless/crap lines.

This is another topic that the community does not have a unanimous opinion about. Some feel more balance changes are needed, others feel that the reliance on "nerfs" and "buffs" has made the meta unwilling to adapt and change naturally. If everyone is using rock, some people are quicker to say "nerf rock" than they are to just take paper and win. Prevalence of a build does not inherently imply it is imbalanced, only that it is just that: prevalent. Often due more to the ease of use than over-effectiveness.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying balance updates are not needed, and I agree with a lot of your points, but I have been part of this community since it was only a couple hundred people and I have watched it evolve over the years. Most of the "problem builds" have had clear and simple counters to them. But as I said, a lot of people spend more time trying to get Build X nerfed than they do working on ways to defeat it. As for under-powered skills, I think the major buff to unused monk skills a few balances ago is a step in the right direction in that regard, wouldn’t you agree?

I always pass threads and comments about skill balance on to Izzy, so please do not think you are not heard. You can also go directly to his wiki page for balance discussions. Just like I do with other threads, I will pass your comments on to Izzy the next time we do a Community Summary. Much of what you said echoes what has been said in the past.

Random Arena Issues:

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*Prevent members of the same guild/alliance from being on the same team.
*Should give extra Faction for winning in Team Arenas if your RA team gets sent there.
*EDIT: Bring back the Zaishen Medal system.

I don't believe any changes are planned for RA, but I will pass these suggestions along. I don't know if it would be possible to prevent members of the same guild/alliance to be on the same team without a lot of code, nor do I know if that is something the designers would even want to do. But like I said, I will pass it along.

Team Arena Issues:

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*Not really an issue, but should probably give a bit extra Faction or something since it is higher level play? (at least, higher than RA...)

Same with RA, I don't know that the designers are planning on adjusting the faction distribution in TA, but I will ask.

Hero Battles Issues:

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*Fix Jennur's Horde bug (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10233478)

I passed this on in the Community Summary I sent earlier in the week. QA found the bug, and they forwarded it to be fixed.

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*Replace Mercenary shrines with other shrines.

While I respect that this may be your personal desire, I have not seen any real evidence to prove that this is the unanimous will of the HB community.

I would suggest you start a thread discussing this if there is not already one to see if this is a wide-spread opinion.

Jade Quarry Issues:

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*Either up Balth faction rewards, give Flames of Balthazar, or something like that. It needs it.

There is a discussion on the topic of CM rewards on my wikipage. I passed it along to the designers, but have not heard any information about changes.

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Fort Aspenwood Issues:
*Fix these bugs:
* A bug known to happen is that a new set of Siege Team (a Siege Turtle and 4 Luxon Warriors) spawns whenever a Luxon command post was retaken by the Luxons even though the previous Siege Team was still alive. Thus, there are 2 Siege Teams (2 Turtles and 8 warriors) attacking the same gate.
* A gatekeeper NPC can be lured through the gate, on purpose or by accident, and he might not be able to return to his original position. This most often happens when the gatekeepers attempt to heal someone moving out of range.
* If a siege turtle is very close to a gate when it is repaired, the turtle will stop moving. This is highly exploitable by Kurzicks, as they simply leave the turtle's range and leave it alive, the Luxons will only have 1 turtle able to reach Gunther. However, this means that the gates on that side will be opened repeatedly as the turtle fires on the guards.
* Sometimes, if a Siege Turtle is close to a gate when it is repaired, it will use Carrier Defense and the gate guards will be teleported behind that gate, making that gate much harder to breach.
* Often, the Luxon Warriors will become 'stuck' in corners inside the fort and will not attack, only using Healing Signet when taking damage. This is exploitable by Kurzicks, because if the Luxon Warriors do not die, the Siege turtles cannot respawn.
* The Juggernaut can follow an attacker inside the base if the green gate is open. Closing the gate while it is still inside will prevent Luxon Warriors and other physical attackers from harming it.
* When the gates are open they appear broken on the map, and no longer close on their own.

I will pass all these issues/bugs onto QA.

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Alliance Battles Issues:
*Fix this bug: "Sometimes when the timer has reached zero and the battle should commence, the gates do not open/the teleporters do not function.This is known as a no-start, unfortunately the only fix is to leave the map, abandoning the battle. " With Dishonor, this is horrible.

I saw this bug a long while back, but have not seen it happen for quite some time. Is it still occurring? Let me know if you have seen this happen recently, and I will let QA know. I seem to recall it may have something to do with the map shifting during the count-down timer, but I may be wrong.

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Heroes' Ascent Issues:
*I don't really have anything here...the game mode kind of supports gimmicky builds to some extent...

Gimmicky builds is more a community effect than a design effect, and I'm not sure what on the design side can be done to prevent it. I know possibly the largest contributing factor is the pick up group, since it is a whole lot easier to just say "Making legoway group" than to say "Making a group that consists of........" and having to list everything, or ping builds and all that to get set up, only to be running a build that no one on your team is familiar with.

As I said, short of nerfing any prevalent build regardless of whether or not it is actually imbalanced, I don't see how, from the design side, we can force the meta to shift. Like I said in the balance section, if everyone is taking rock, take paper, and when enough people catch on and start doing that, rock will stop winning, and the meta will shift naturally. In an ideal world, of course.

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Guild versus Guild Issues:
*Splinter Weapon.
*NPC AI at VoD.

I think these are sort of intertwined, since NPC AI at VoD is how Splinter Weapon is such pwn. But I don't know if I would call it over-powered. Effective, yes, overpowered? I just don't know if I would say that. Though I admit, I monk in GvG, so I'm not on the "front line" when NPCs start exploding.

I am sure this is a skill that Izzy is closely monitoring, and as I said in the balance section, I pass along all the threads about skill suggestions directly to Izzy for his reading pleasure.

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Automated Tournament Issues:
*I had an idea for this...rather than having AT's at certain times, why don't you let Guilds/people just sign up for them whenever....and when enough Guilds/people are signed up, it automatically starts one? That way Guilds/people can play whenever there is enough people on!

This would have one inherent flaw: by the time the last team signs up, the first team may have gotten sick of waiting and left. Without set times, I think forfeits would become a much larger issue than they already are.

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*Lower the wait time between matches...seriously. Make it like 10 minutes because you don't need much longer than that.

Some teams like to change entire builds between matches. I know others often have members grab a snack, or other sorts of things between the matches. I think this is another instance where your preference is not shared with the over-all community, so it would probably be wise to start a thread on this specific topic.

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I hope you read this Andrew, and respond / forward to whoever...

Done and done. Or at least it will be done when I send out the next Community Summary.

One thing I would like to say is, typically it is better to start individual discussions on these topics to allow everyone else to focus the discussion on that topic. It's fine to make an over-arching "everything I want to see changed" but as you can see from the responses, one must be careful when they claim to speak for the all mighty "everyone." Much of this has already been discussed and passed on to the designers and I will pass any new issues on to the appropriate people to see if they want to make any changes. If I get any more information about any of this, I will let you all know.

BlackSephir · Dec 21, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

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Originally Posted by Ulterion

Remove Dishonorable Combatant System:
Reason for new/casual players to mock us & gloat over our punishment for prematurely leaving a match due to forseen loss of matches and imbalanced/grieving players and teams...)
PvP was fine for the 2.5 years that it didn't have this update.

And until dishonor was introduced people complained about leavers/leechers/griefers.

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Stop nerfing assassins

No, if needed, nerf them but in a good way. Figure out what is the problem and don't make random nerfs 'maybe it'll work'- perfectly good skills suffer from random nerfs- y hallo thar HoTO.
Recenty SP got +5r. Recharge on SP isn't the problem. IAS combined with shadow step + snare is the problem because it allows overpowered, fast and deadly spikes.
And how long did it take AN to 'stop' soj sins?

Dominator1370 · Dec 21, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post such a thorough response. I got through most of it without getting the "Your call is important to us, that's why we provided elevator music for you to listen to while you were on hold for the past hour" feeling, which is nice. To address a few specific points:

Skill Balance

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This is another topic that the community does not have a unanimous opinion about. Some feel more balance changes are needed, others feel that the reliance on "nerfs" and "buffs" has made the meta unwilling to adapt and change naturally. If everyone is using rock, some people are quicker to say "nerf rock" than they are to just take paper and win. Prevalence of a build does not inherently imply it is imbalanced, only that it is just that: prevalent. Often due more to the ease of use than over-effectiveness.

It's true that you can counter most any build out there, especially gimmick builds. However, if a build is so common that I feel like I have to run a counter to it, I'd say that's a sign of a problem. Of course, being forced to run specific builds generally isn't too fun either. However, there's rarely one exclusive gimmick build that's viable at a given time. One may be more prevalent, but there are usually a few that you could see. So now, I have to build to counter whatever the prevalent gimmick build is, and try to make sure I can counter the gimmick builds I might see. Where does that leave room for running the fun, innovative build that I wanted to run?

It's also true that meta can shift on its own. However, those shifts can be a sign of imbalance too. You could follow the idea that "oh, meta will shift, so we don't have to worry too much about X". Let me run this by you, though: which do you think is more likely to have an impact on the meta? A powerful (read: imbalanced) skill, or a balanced (read: comparable to others) skill? It seems to me like imbalanced skills could influence meta more easily than balanced skills. That isn't to say that meta shift is only caused by imbalance, but natural progression takes time and requires a balance AND options to exist in the first place. Balance is getting better. I'd like to see more viable options so a meta shift is actually possible. It's an extreme example, but if there was only one viable build, how could meta ever shift? The more possibilities there are, the easier it shifts.

Heroes Ascent

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Gimmicky builds is more a community effect than a design effect, and I'm not sure what on the design side can be done to prevent it. I know possibly the largest contributing factor is the pick up group, since it is a whole lot easier to just say "Making legoway group" than to say "Making a group that consists of........" and having to list everything, or ping builds and all that to get set up, only to be running a build that no one on your team is familiar with.

I'm sure the community has a large effect on the prevalence of gimmick builds in HA, but I don't think the design team is entirely without blame. I think that the maps are a part of the problem. For example, in the Underworld, you're in a relatively small arena with lots of choke points. Actually, it seems to be a pretty common problem with HA maps. Even when you get to Halls, at some point or another, you're going to have 3 teams charging into each other trying to hold a central point. All this places extra emphasis on Spirits, traps, AoE spam, wells, even minions.

Compare this to GvG: maps are large and games are multifactorial: NPC's, ganks, morale bonuses, and VoD are all incredibly important, but none of them are quite as important as your Guild Lord. Sure, you can split in HA, but there isn't really one overarching and important goal besides win.

Whether or not it's a good idea to change them is up for debate, I'm sure a lot of people enjoy the gimmicky style of HA. Some don't. I'd say leave it as it is. People who want more serious play can jump into GvG. That's just my opinion, though.

DarkNecrid · Dec 21, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

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It seems to me your plea is mostly subjective and doesn't at all reflect the views of the "community." For one example, your section on Fort Aspenwood is larger than your section on skill balance.

So post!

I will expand on the Skill Balance in a bit.

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How can you say that would be an inherently desired change when there are people out there who clearly enjoy using heroes?

Again, don't take this the wrong way Andrew, but:

"How can you say that would be an inherently desire change when there are people out there who clearly enjoy using Signet of Ghostly Might?" (whilst it was broken)

I know its a bit of stretch, but people enjoy using things that give them an advantage.

People enjoy various things for various reasons, and heroes can play better than most players in most of the game modes. Granted they won't out perform a top player but they are still really really good.

I mean, heroes don't get tired, sneeze, cough, follow every order to the nanosecond, don't talk back, etc. They're more consistant and more reliable than a human at times, and they subtract from the Player versus Player experiance of GvG / HA. When I play those game modes I play them cause I want to kill other players' guys, and I'm sure tons of other people do too. Heck, I'd rather play RA than HB or AB, simply because at least in RA you get to kill a player's guy moreso than a bunch of AI. Its less fun to kill an AI, its why I don't PvE.

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As for under-powered skills, I think the major buff to unused monk skills a few balances ago is a step in the right direction in that regard, wouldn’t you agree?

I sure as hell do!

But you need to do it to everyone besides Monk now, and there is still useless monk stuff left as well.

I really just want to see a GWFC metagame again...something styled to it. I'm sure you remember it well Andrew? People actually didn't run the exact same builds +/- 1-2 skills on each build. They actually ran different builds! And same for Prophecies-only! I mean, you look at Mesmer's now in GvG, and its the same 6 skills + rez, but change 1 skill. Granted, that 1 skill changes the build + way you play completely, but think of what changing 4 skills, or even all 7 could do?

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I always pass threads and comments about skill balance on to Izzy, so please do not think you are not heard. You can also go directly to his wiki page for balance discussions. Just like I do with other threads, I will pass your comments on to Izzy the next time we do a Community Summary. Much of what you said echoes what has been said in the past.

I know you pass them along, and that is great. It's not a problem about you or anything like that at all. I just wonder sometimes whats going on over there...the best skill balance to happen lately was the one that nerfed DP and what not, but it took a couple months for that to happen. And when it happened, Deadly Arts didn't get rebuffed which basically made DA useless!

Stuff needs to happen faster then what it is now.

Right now, its like you have a huge bucket, with about 1,000 apples in it, but 500 or so of those apples are poisoned. I say to you, "I will remove 5 poisoned apples from this bucket every month, then hand you 1 apple at random from the remaining apples."

You're still likely to get a poisoned apple.

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I passed this on in the Community Summary I sent earlier in the week. QA found the bug, and they forwarded it to be fixed.

Thanks.

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While I respect that this may be your personal desire, I have not seen any real evidence to prove that this is the unanimous will of the HB community. I would suggest you start a thread discussing this if there is not already one to see if this is a wide-spread opinion.

It's definately something that needs to be looked at. It already turns something that is barely PvP into even more barely PvP.

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I will pass all these issues/bugs onto QA.

Thanks!

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I saw this bug a long while back, but have not seen it happen for quite some time. Is it still occurring? Let me know if you have seen this happen recently, and I will let QA know. I seem to recall it may have something to do with the map shifting during the count-down timer, but I may be wrong.

Yeah, it still happens, just very rarely. Like maybe 1 in a thousand games or so rare maybe. Probably more than that too. Still happens, happened to me a month or so ago!

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Gimmicky builds is more a community effect than a design effect, and I'm not sure what on the design side can be done to prevent it. I know possibly the largest contributing factor is the pick up group, since it is a whole lot easier to just say "Making legoway group" than to say "Making a group that consists of........" and having to list everything, or ping builds and all that to get set up, only to be running a build that no one on your team is familiar with.

As I said, short of nerfing any prevalent build regardless of whether or not it is actually imbalanced, I don't see how, from the design side, we can force the meta to shift. Like I said in the balance section, if everyone is taking rock, take paper, and when enough people catch on and start doing that, rock will stop winning, and the meta will shift naturally. In an ideal world, of course.

I will expand on this point of mine.

The reason I said what I said is because HA has so many different game modes that you can get to fight in at random, and they all require various things such as multiple teams (3) of 8 and what not, that it just makes gimmicky builds a bit better. Not that its a REAL bad thing, if HA wants to be gimmicky build mode, it can be. Some people really like that (*coughcoughpeoplewhocomplainedaboutdeadlyparadoxb eingnerfedcoughcough* Oh man, I need to get that cough checked....

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I think these are sort of intertwined, since NPC AI at VoD is how Splinter Weapon is such pwn. But I don't know if I would call it over-powered. Effective, yes, overpowered? I just don't know if I would say that. Though I admit, I monk in GvG, so I'm not on the "front line" when NPCs start exploding.

I am sure this is a skill that Izzy is closely monitoring, and as I said in the balance section, I pass along all the threads about skill suggestions directly to Izzy for his reading pleasure.

Yeah, I meant to put an OR in there. :P I would much rather prefer AI got fixed though, cause Splinter isn't inherently bad, and nerfing it cause of the AI would be silly.

So thats why Monks got so buffed.....<.<

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This would have one inherent flaw: by the time the last team signs up, the first team may have gotten sick of waiting and left. Without set times, I think forfeits would become a much larger issue than they already are.

But the thing is, there are guilds who want to do this, and honestly do, and when there are a ton of guilds online who want to AT, they could. I guess you are right though!

Definately need to work on the times though. :/

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Some teams like to change entire builds between matches. I know others often have members grab a snack, or other sorts of things between the matches. I think this is another instance where your preference is not shared with the over-all community, so it would probably be wise to start a thread on this specific topic.

This is true, but PvP players have templates for everything anyways, and are on vent. Doing any of that stuff would take less than 10m still! A set time isn't much, but its too long right now. Honestly, it takes so long right now, thats a big problem with forfeits, people dont have that kind of time.

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Done and done. Or at least it will be done when I send out the next Community Summary. One thing I would like to say is, typically it is better to start individual discussions on these topics to allow everyone else to focus the discussion on that topic. It's fine to make an over-arching "everything I want to see changed" but as you can see from the responses, one must be careful when they claim to speak for the all mighty "everyone." Much of this has already been discussed and passed on to the designers and I will pass any new issues on to the appropriate people to see if they want to make any changes. If I get any more information about any of this, I will let you all know.

I guess maybe the title was misleading or something, but I said open letter because I want this to be a topic where everyone can say what they think the problems are, and talk about it together. This is what I think the problems are, and what I would like to see fixed. A lot of my RA/TA changes make it easier on new people + more incentive (they would love the Medallion system if you added some more PvEish rewards in there too

), etc. I just didn't have time to fully compose myself (had to pick up my sister) when I did the OP. I'll expand on various stuff later.

Just thanks for your well thought out response, Andrew.

Kaon · Dec 22, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I completely disagree with everything you said in your skill balance paragraph. As been said many times many years before, the game does not need every game or skill line to be viable. What it needs is a set of skills that are fun to use and promote player skill. In practical sense these are toolbox skills. Then it doesn't really matter whether you have 10 skills or 1000 skills, the last thing this game needs is more crap like assassins, paragons, dervishes, and searing flames.

wuzzman · Dec 22, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

am I write or am I wrong?

DarkNecrid · Dec 22, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

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Originally Posted by Kaon

I completely disagree with everything you said in your skill balance paragraph. As been said many times many years before, the game does not need every game or skill line to be viable. What it needs is a set of skills that are fun to use and promote player skill. In practical sense these are toolbox skills. Then it doesn't really matter whether you have 10 skills or 1000 skills, the last thing this game needs is more crap like assassins, paragons, dervishes, and searing flames.

I know that, but people get bored from seeing the same stuff ALL THE TIME.

Div · Dec 22, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I know that, but people get bored from seeing the same stuff ALL THE TIME.

You're not going to get 1000 skills perfectly balanced with each other. One team build and a few individual builds will inevitably dominate the meta, since the top teams run it successfully and lower-end teams try to imitate it. Just get over it.

rohara · Dec 22, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

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Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

I have already been told this will not happen. Please don't think I am unsympathetic to you guys. I spent my faction on tokens too. But for a number of reasons, the designers do not intend on allowing you to use tokens to purchase keys. If I hear anything more specific, I will let you all know.

that sucks. what are their reasons?

how about adding something, anything to do with those tokens other than tournaments? trade for guild hall NPCs or sigils, perhaps? i got 2 stacks burning a hole in my storage.

i get sick thinking about how hard i worked for all that faction, with nothing to show for it but stacks of worthless coins. its just not right. i feel ripped off.

swordfisher · Dec 22, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Tourney Tokens for guests/guild invites plz.

Riotgear · Dec 22, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

You're not going to get 1000 skills perfectly balanced with each other. One team build and a few individual builds will inevitably dominate the meta, since the top teams run it successfully and lower-end teams try to imitate it. Just get over it.

To his credit, things are a bit more stale than usual.

DarkNecrid · Dec 22, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

You're not going to get 1000 skills perfectly balanced with each other. One team build and a few individual builds will inevitably dominate the meta, since the top teams run it successfully and lower-end teams try to imitate it. Just get over it.

I get this man, I am not arguing this with you at all.

But right now, it is more stale than a 5 year old piece of bread that has been sitting in the open. GWFC/GWWC were both very skill restrictive, and there was still junk skills/weak skills back then too, but there was also this word I like to call "variety".

And no, the 1-2 skills that you get to change on your bars right now don't count as variety.

Razz L Dazzle · Dec 22, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

PvE can have a variety of skills, thats fine. PvP does not need all the skills to be viable it would only increase Build wars when most PvPers would prefer to play a balanced game where player skill and tactics decide the game. Enjoyment should not be based on the variety of skills you can place on your bar, for PvP anyway. There are some skills that could use a buff and would increase the overall gaming enjoyment but there are many more that would ruin balance and game enjoyment, (see Keystone Signet).

Greedy Gus · Dec 22, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

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Originally Posted by rohara

that sucks. what are their reasons?

how about adding something, anything to do with those tokens other than tournaments? trade for guild hall NPCs or sigils, perhaps? i got 2 stacks burning a hole in my storage.

i get sick thinking about how hard i worked for all that faction, with nothing to show for it but stacks of worthless coins. its just not right. i feel ripped off.

Do you not see how ridiculous you look? This feeling of entitlement, deserving to be rewarded for stockpiling a ton of useless items, is just sad. Don't you think making tokens valuable would "suck" for the people who logically stopped spending time & storage space buying them when they had enough to enter all the ATs they wanted to? I think they would actually be "ripped off" in that case. Retroactivity in general is bad business.

rohara · Dec 22, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Do you not see how ridiculous you look? This feeling of entitlement, deserving to be rewarded for stockpiling a ton of useless items, is just sad. Don't you think making tokens valuable would "suck" for the people who logically stopped spending time & storage space buying them when they had enough to enter all the ATs they wanted to? I think they would actually be "ripped off" in that case. Retroactivity in general is bad business.

just because you disagree is no excuse to attack me, m8.

feeling ripped off for spending my balth faction on the only thing i could spend my balth faction on after UAX? honestly...bet yr ass, i do. i, like many people, felt it only made sense anet would give us another use for them eventually, seeing as it was the one and only (and long-awaited) balth faction sink after UAX. was everyone supposed to just max out their balth cap and let it sit there? is that a good game mechanic? is that "good business"? retroactivity indeed is usually a bad thing. however, in this case, i'd say it most certainly isn't. two wrongs don't make a right.

~ Dan ~ · Dec 22, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying balance updates are not needed, and I agree with a lot of your points, but I have been part of this community since it was only a couple hundred people and I have watched it evolve over the years. Most of the "problem builds" have had clear and simple counters to them. But as I said, a lot of people spend more time trying to get Build X nerfed than they do working on ways to defeat it. As for under-powered skills, I think the major buff to unused monk skills a few balances ago is a step in the right direction in that regard, wouldn’t you agree?

I feel, regarding everything you replied with about nerfs/buffs was just trying to avoid the fact that there are so many underpowered skills. Seriously, i thought anet representatives played this game?

Just take a look at shit skills like Intimidating Aura. They've been that useless since release and never been touched. Do the devs really think that a skill like that has some kind of use?

If a skill is inferior to another doing the same thing, it needs a buff, end of story. As already stated, start doing proper skill balances, not just a few skills at a time.

Sure, buffing monk skills was a step in the right direction. Monk is a core profession. Many of those crap skills have been in that state since the game was released. Why does everything take so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing long to get done?

People have made countless threads with a whole list of every useless skill in the game, and there is no argument against them being buffed. Read them.

Riotgear · Dec 22, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

I feel, regarding everything you replied with about nerfs/buffs was just trying to avoid the fact that there are so many underpowered skills. Seriously, i thought anet representatives played this game?

Not enough good skills is a problem.
Too many bad skills is not.

Quote:

People have made countless threads with a whole list of every useless skill in the game, and there is no argument against them being buffed. Read them.

Yes, there is. There's the fact that most of them are terrible in design and are not conducive to skillful play if they are viable. Ever heard the phrase "garbage in, garbage out?"

We just got done dealing with Keystone Signet and Discord, and Augury of Death is still a problem. So yes, just buffing bad skills just because they're bad IS a problem.

The issue of "if a skill is clearly worse, it needs a buff" is flawed as well. Some skills just provide exactly what people want and some don't. Storm Chaser, for example, is garbage if you're not going to be taking elemental damage repeatedly, vastly inferior to 50% block. It's not just that it's underpowered, it's also not conducive to what people bring a run stance on a ranger for any more. Number-tweaking it is not going to change that. Same goes for Frenzy, which has been the gold standard for IAS skills for a while because its drawback is one that can be controlled by skillful play. There isn't really any way to replace it except by a skill that is less-risky and consequently dumber, and the game does not need dumb.

There are a huge number of skills which were once viable that have fallen by the wayside, forced out of the meta by updates. Many of those things have been conducive to non-degenerate play, so that makes them far choicer candidates for buffing.

bungusmaximus · Dec 22, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

With riotgear on that one, you don't need many good skills, because if they're really good skills, there's more then 1 way to play them and to use them in builds. Just take shock as an example, that skill can be used in many different ways (offense, defense, interrupt). Those are the kind of skills that make GW healthy and far from boring imho. What does for example vampiric gaze do? it only steals life no matter how you slice it, that's what I would call a 'boring skill'. Buff it, and you will get spike-teams with 6 necro's in it. I never saw any shock-spike teams though :P.

Greedy Gus · Dec 22, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

it was the one and only (and long-awaited) balth faction sink after UAX. was everyone supposed to just max out their balth cap and let it sit there? is that a good game mechanic?

I did, and didn't lose much sleep over it. Then again, I used to PvP when faction didn't exist, and I GvG'ed hundreds of matches while maxed on faction after prophecies and factions (when it didn't continue adding to your account's total balth faction gained). Tournament tokens had a very clear, specific purpose, and I don't feel bad for people who stockpiled them like PvE players hunting gold.

Sun Fired Blank · Dec 23, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Yeah well....you can't balance the game around 4v4, sadly.

I wanted to address this one post because it completely misses the point. I think this mentality insults a very niche but dedicated group of people, who know their format is broken and still adhere rigidly to it. The frustrating aspect is that most of the problem skills that are breaking the format could be changed with minimal or positive impact for other formats.

As it stands, I'm very frustrated by three skills: Barbs, Magebane Shot, Warmonger's Weapon. Probably 95% of the shit about TA is a result of these four skills, and I think that most TA players would concur that these skills could use a slight tweaking. I'm slightly discontent with Ancestor's Rage, Shadow Walk, Siphon Speed, Augury of Death, Corrupt Enchantment, Fear Me! and Shattering Assault. I don't believe these skills are that much of a problem as a whole, but I do feel they're a bit frustrating in comparison to other skills, and I'd like for them to be adjusted slightly. I'm also slightly discontent with the mechanisms that can power or enable these skills, which are formidable in their own right: Steady Stance, and Rampage as One.

Aside from these skills, it would also be nice if the game for hexes were slightly adjusted (both removal and hexes themselves), and if the motivation /tactics paragon setups (either the four team setups that guilds like [Emo] favor, or the one para setup that solely enables Soldier's Defense on the monk, and a permanent four pips of health regen and +20 armor) got a slight adjustment.

To be frank, I think most of the changes only have to be minor, and even with slight recharge, cost, and / or mechanical adjustments to only a handful of the skills that I listed, you would instantly make TA less lethal and less concerned with overwhelming pressure or the simple execution of gamebreaking plays. I think it would also give a lot of breathing room for newer players and less visceral builds. And I don't believe that I mentioned anything that anyone in another format cares that much about having nerfed, except maybe Magebane Shot (which is seeing occasional use in GvG), the motivation paras (which are sometimes helping to give party defense and healing on GvG lines, and are key for Zergway), and Fear Me / Steady Stance (which as part of Zergway, I think just about every HA'er would like to see put down forever).

Also, I'm sorry for perhaps raising the point in the wrong thread, but I have to be very frank: I think TA is on the verge of a serious revival. I've noticed that a fair number of the older, mid to high-rank gladiators are starting to come back to the format, and a fair number of the r2 and r3 gladiators from RA have started to take a serious interest. I firmly believe that right now, with only a handful of minor skill tweaks, A-Net could generate defining interest which could preserve the format, or they could ultimately condemn it to a gradual descent into obscurity.