Curse

Pyro maniac · Jan 19, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

There is various skills to use against shadowformers. First to remove it, only skill is Chillblains, which is crap. But there are alot of useful skills overally, not just to counter that A/Me shit. Shock, ancestors rage and frozen burst to name few.

body block at the place where he casted Shadow of Haste

erk · Jan 19, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because party healing is an essential mechanic in Guild Wars. The more hoops you have to jump through to get it, the more degenerate the format is going to be.

It's quite simple. There is a certain balance between offensive and defensive potency for any particular format, that is largely independent of the skills being used. Teams fluctuate around that balance with their own builds and tactics. If offensive skills are nerfed, more resources, in terms of character and skill slots, become devoted to offense; if offense is buffed, less are devoted to offense as people shore up their defenses instead - and the same goes for defense. The game is self-correcting in that regard.

Nerfing LoD did not reduce the potency of defenses in GvG. Doing that is impossible if you understand what has been said already; within wide tolerances, you can't affect that as builds will shift to make up the difference. What those nerfs do change is the flavor of the game. If defenses are weakened, more characters, skills, time, and energy are devoted to defense instead of offense. This slows the game down in two ways; first, it slow the game down because people are now playing a more defensively focused game, and second, it slows down from the generally lower power level of the skills being used. As a side effect, the value of disruption shifts as the space devoted to offense and defense shifts. When defense is stronger and more concentrated, disrupting defense is much more valuable and rewarding, as you gain more from individual plays that way. When defense is weak and offense is strong, the opposite is true - disruption on the more concentrated offense is much more valuable.

Bringing back LoD would be an improvement because it would increase the power level of the game, and concentrate defenses more, making them more prone to disruption, while also facilitating a shift towards more aggressive play, as there is more room for offense and the flexibility that comes with it. The same is true of defensive buffs in general, particularly to Monks. As long as changes are within the tolerances of the game, the environment will necessarily shift towards killing and shutting down more powerful Monks if a team wants to be successful.

That's all very logical and makes sense, but it's based on a huge assumption that the party will stay together. I think the way of the future is the dedicated split teams not turtling at the flag stand and being eaten alive by some Champ point farming Blood spike team. Splitting is a far more interesting way to play and doesn't need LoD or Aegis.

Skye Marin · Jan 19, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

I think he doesn't want to just KD them. Damage them or Snare them.
I believe he wants to be able to just remove shadow form very easily
and 2 hit wand shot em, or have it so that it simply has no chance of play.

Best case would be to change the skill to a certain functionality so that it's potent at saving your own ass in a tight spot, but can't be maintained with echo and mimicry.

5 cost
1/4 second cast
45 second recharge
For 5..12 seconds, you cannot be the target of spells, block 75% of attacks against you, and move 33% faster. This enchantment ends if you are above 50..80% of your maximum health.

No health loss when it ends - makes it a cheap self-target Spell breaker that also blocks attacks. Could be pretty handy for running a flag or deep ganking. Requires you to be in action before you use it, so it can't function like a pre-prot.

ensoriki · Jan 19, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Or you could make Shadow form have a 60 second disability.
Like the Dervish forms but 60 seconds

I still don't see the need for a Maximum Health clause, when it's only lasting 12 seconds

Riotgear · Jan 19, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Shadow Form really has two uses: Griefing, and as an "I Win" button to enable farming in PvE. While I'm not going to repeat my typical rant against farming, I will say that that if the only use for a skill is trivializing encounters that are supposed to be much more difficult, it would be pretty safe to hit it.

Making it a skill or form would probably be a significant hit to it, preventing it from being modded from enchantment duration gear and preventing it from working with Arcane Echo. Yes, it has its counters, most of which are pretty obvious.

But let's face it, is there anyone here who would complain if this perma-Shadow Form crap got kneecapped?

Zuranthium · Jan 19, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by langola

Nerf Motigons: There healing is mindless, takes no skill to play, and is near impossible to shutdown.

Impossible to shut down? The Paragon Resto skills are 1 second activations that never fast-cast or fast-recharge.

"Shields Up!" is the only Para skill that deserves a small nerf, IMO.

~Z

Legendary Shiz · Jan 20, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Impossible to shut down? The Paragon Resto skills are 1 second activations that never fast-cast or fast-recharge.

"Shields Up!" is the only Para skill that deserves a small nerf, IMO.

~Z

But why would you camp a paragon?

JR · Jan 20, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

You do realise, what you just said equates to the same thing that the PVE players say each time they see a proposed skill update?

I.e. Bring counters noob!

Just because it is possible to adapt to or counter a skill combination, it does not mean that combination is balanced. Are there counters? Yes, are the majority those counters very narrow and based on poor skills - thus not often part of any team build? Yes! That's why it's a problem.

Whilst I'm not sure I'd call shadow form overpowered, because it does not achieve victory, it certainly is an issue and an inelegant part of gameplay, it's only common viable purpose within the PVP game these days is to grief people, based on that ALONE it should be fixed up.

Skill X becomes a problem, skill Y counters skill X, thus skill X isn't a problem is a notoriously shallow way of looking at balance issues, you should know better, this certainly is NOT metagame 101.

Thank you for explaining that! I guess I'll go back to farming Charr and working on my Legendary Defender title.

Please don't lecture me on what is and what isn't good motivation behind skill balancing.

Sure, change Shadow Form. It's not exactly going to hurt any legitimate PvP builds if you do, though it will probably upset the PvE crowd again. I merely object to people whining about it as if it is some broken gimmick that is ruining the game. The skills there to counter it are pretty ready available, and you aren't exactly going to lose games to it even if you don't take them.

These people could quite easily run 8 multi stance rangers with cross covered holy veils if they really wanted to grief. What would you nerf then?

Riotgear · Jan 20, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

These people could quite easily run 8 multi stance rangers with cross covered holy veils if they really wanted to grief. What would you nerf then?

Nothing really holds a candle to 100% miss and spell auto-fail in terms of grief potential because there isn't nearly as much that you can punch through it with. Again, not saying it's hard to do such a thing, but I don't think it changes the reality of the situation, which is that it's an extremely unhealthy thing for the game to have working AT ALL. We're talking about something that is based on frustrating people to the point that they quit.

pah01 · Jan 20, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Thank you for explaining that! I guess I'll go back to farming Charr and working on my Legendary Defender title.

Please don't lecture me on what is and what isn't good motivation behind skill balancing.

Sure, change Shadow Form. It's not exactly going to hurt any legitimate PvP builds if you do, though it will probably upset the PvE crowd again. I merely object to people whining about it as if it is some broken gimmick that is ruining the game. The skills there to counter it are pretty raady available, and you aren't exactly going to lose games to it even if you don't take them.

These people could quite easily run 8 multi stance rangers with cross covered holy veils if they really wanted to grief. What would you nerf then?

I am going to side with tiyuri. I am going to ask you what purpose this skill has in PVP apart from being annoying.

Your 8 ranger idea sounds like it actually cause some grief. Well maybe in some JR fantasyland.

Riotgear · Jan 20, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

It has the same purpose as Endure Pain.

the_deSKtructor · Jan 20, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

An idea that came into my mind is:

Cracked armor: add/change functionality so that when u are under the effects of cracked armor weapon spells on u have no effect.

Wildi · Jan 20, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Please post specific skills you feel still need to be looked at so I can forward it to the design team on Monday. As the update said, we are going to make more adjustments as needed, so please provide detailed feedback so I can pass it on.

The exhaustion mechanic needs to be looked at. In short, the only exhaustion skills which are worth using cause knockdown. Shock is great but when was the last time Energy Boon, Chain Lightning or Mind Burn were worth using ? Buffing those skills could be dangerous, I believe exhaustion is the real problem.

DarkNecrid · Jan 20, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Or people could just take the simple counters to that build? It's hardly broken, people just haven't adapated yet. Welcome to metagame 101.

Here I am just going to quote David Holtzman on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Holtzman

Balance does not mean merely that there exist counters. What if I had a signet of instawin, and you could counter it only by solving a differential equation while juggling and standing on the wing of a 747. According to you that would be balanced, because there is a counter. If this is really what you believe, then you're just living in a different reality than the rest of us and trying to show you things is a waste of time. Do you really believe this?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 20, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Impossible to shut down? The Paragon Resto skills are 1 second activations that never fast-cast or fast-recharge.

"Shields Up!" is the only Para skill that deserves a small nerf, IMO.

~Z

Mending Refrain.

Kaon · Jan 20, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Impossible to shut down? The Paragon Resto skills are 1 second activations that never fast-cast or fast-recharge.

"Shields Up!" is the only Para skill that deserves a small nerf, IMO.

~Z

Yeah lets take someone that camps a paragon all the time.

JR · Jan 20, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Here I am just going to quote David Holtzman on this.

Haha? I have been arguing the 'just because you can counter it doesn't mean it's balanced' point since before you first stepped into RA. You don't need to give me quotes to support a point I know as well as you do.

It is off the mark anyway, I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that this build is seriously imbalanced or broken. It is not a build that you play to win, it has simply become popular to grief with it. If you remove it there are still many other ways to grief.

I hate to break it to you, but counters are the single biggest factor in balance when you take it down to a basic level. Hexes would be overpowered as hell without removal. Spike would be overpowered as hell without fast prots.

Take Leech Signet. Interrupt their Shadow Form when they try to put it back up. Kill them. Take Signet of Disenchantment. Remove their Shadow Form. Kill them. Take neither? You have a long and boring match, but you shouldn't lose unless you deserve to.

Yes, the fact there are counters to something does not automatically make it balanced. However, if there are readily available counters that destroy the build, then it probably is balanced. Enough people take them and it will stop being fun to grief with, and the idiots will run something else.

I really think complaining that it didn't get touched in a skill balance is a bit over the top.

Vaga · Jan 20, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

The main problem is the counters are pretty narrow and if you don't take them it ends up as a draw which in RA/TA = Loss. Obviously the counters aren't completely ridiculous so I'm sure balanced builds do take them, it's just not a very fun/interesting game mechanic and it would be good if it was changed.

Iotan · Jan 20, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

The main problem is the counters are pretty narrow and if you don't take them it ends up as a draw which in RA/TA = Loss. Obviously the counters aren't completely ridiculous so I'm sure balanced builds do take them, it's just not a very fun/interesting game mechanic and it would be good if it was changed.

Well it's a draw if you're fighting 4 Shadow Form A/Mes but that... never happens. Also, nobody brings counters for anything to RA and there are many possible griefing builds for TA other than a dumb 4 SF build. A build that devotes at least 3 skills (including the elite) and specs into a useless attribute isn't a big problem to the metagame. Let PvE have their farming build and let us stop discussing this pointless skill.

In the 4v4 arenas my biggest complaint is about Augury of Death. It's far too easy to use right now and really should be included on any caster's bar, although RA people are dumb so it isn't everywhere. The energy, recharge, cast time or functionality should change somehow so it isn't such a mindless skill.

A lot of people say that monks should be buffed to make the rest of a GvG team more offense-oriented. A lot of the same people don't like the interrupt-oriented shutdown and Diversion spam that is prevalent now. Wouldn't putting all the defense on 2 backline characters just magnify this situation?

Lorekeeper · Jan 20, 2008, 07:22 PM // 19:22

the problem is that the majority of teams in HA are bad... the majority of builds are heavy dmg frontloaded builds with little to no defensive utility or shutdown utility. Its no wonder that shadowform poses such a problem for them in HA. Anything that doesnt die in a maelstrom/spike of fire dmg and knockdowns or fear me spam just doesnt compute. Anything that requires players to actually analyse the usage of skills of their opponents is blasphemy for the majority of HA players.

For the ''smarter'' players who run builds with a bit more flexibility in mind, things like the odd shadowform assassin pose as mere annoyances.

For the meta scrubs who try to run more flexible builds with utility thats capable of dealing with shadowform sins, its just going to be a matter of time before they become good enough to know HOW to deal with them. Interrupts are generally the best solution.

But all this talk about counters is needless imo.

Lets assume these griefers find enough lamers to run 8 shadowform sins. You got a choice to make when you see them across the screen.

Do you

a) spend hours chasing them around trying to disable their shadowform for 1 fame - during which you will probably get very frustrated and start to flame the griefers in local chat. The grief team would then be successful in being a grief team because they managed to piss you off. All this to win 1 fame.

b) resign out and re-enter to play HA against ''proper'' opponents.

now think about it... how soon do you think it will be before everyone knows the name of these griefers?

im pretty sure if they do it on a regular basis the entire HA community would find out within a few weeks.

In that case the griefers only succeed in blacklisting themselves from the majority of the communities potential friendlist. So what if when you resign out they win 1 fame. What is 1 fame in the overall scheme of things?

If these people are running this to win fame... let them... they wont get far.

If these people are running this to grief people and they dont care about fame, if you flame them and spend hours trying to kill them... YOU are allowing them to achieve their goals.

basically the best course of action is to STOP playing against these players.

sooner or later if they see that noone is bothering to fight them, they wont get any fun from running it. Let them progress to relic runs, or capture points, or altar maps... they dont have snares, they cant clean their runners, they cant heal their ghosts, they cant interrupt your ghost, they dont have song. How far will they go with this build?

If they want to farm tiny bits of fame in the first few maps, let them, itll be a few years before they reach any significant rank.

And even if they did... i will know for sure WHO they are, and IF they ever attempt to pass themselves off as good players with 'rank' then i hope YOU will know for sure WHO they are and tell them to go where the sun dont shine.

this is definately a case where some parts of the community are calling for nerfs where its not needed, in this case action on behalf of the community itself would be far more effective than a skill nerf would.

is our community of gamers so used to being mothered by skill balances that it has lost any clue of how to deal with things themselves?