Curse

Mysterial · Jan 19, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Since Anet seems to be too lazy to fix NPCs balling up, I'll propose the same lazy fix I did before: Simply make NPCs resistant to AOE damage. Not sure if this is entirely possible, but may as well throw it out there.

Why not? Just give them a permanent Healing Seed type buff.

Lordhelmos · Jan 19, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Best thread ever.

Once I saw that link go up in the argument regarding caster dmg vs. melee I didn't even have to click to know what it was. No one should speak about caster damage without first reading this thread. Speaking of which, you've read this right Andrew?

Also for VoD, why not add a paragon healer NPC to the lineup and lock his skills till VoD. This way other teams can gank him, making splits and base raids more effective. If he lives he can shout SoR and ballad to heal other NPCs (except for the guild lord). That would be kind of cool, and give teams who prot him and fight off ganks an edge vs. AoE dmg during a VoD game.

Captain Robo · Jan 19, 2008, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Lordhelmos I'm really glad you pointed that out, because I was also about to go on a tirade about it.

Andrew really needs to read that if he already hasn't.

Also, I'm very unsure if Andrew is actually giving the skill balance team the right information. The fact that they need him as a liaison to the community indicates to me that they don't read this forum at all...

Andrew, for the love of God point them in the right direction; maybe they might learn something.

Farin · Jan 19, 2008, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I actually really really like Langola's suggestion on aegis (except for the 25% part). That seems like a pretty reasonable change given the fact it's party wide.

Dominator1370 · Jan 19, 2008, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Since Anet seems to be too lazy to fix NPCs balling up, I'll propose the same lazy fix I did before: Simply make NPCs resistant to AOE damage. Not sure if this is entirely possible, but may as well throw it out there.

Make echos maintained the same way as maintained enchantments are: -1 pip energy, cancel whenever. Get rid of this pay-for-once-ever unremovable uncounterable permanent buff trash.

Glyph should return cost, not lower it.

LoD should probably get buffed back, but let's face it, it shouldn't be a must-take. There need to be viable alternatives that are easy to slot.

A few things:

I really hate it when people piss and moan to developers about A.I. It's probably one of the most difficult things out there to do particularly well in a situation with any appreciable number of variables. It's not just a simple matter of adding the "I'm in DoT, kite!" code that exists in PvE, either. Maintain a DoTAoE skill in a chokepoint and you prevent NPC's from reaching the stand. Careful usage of AoE spam could force NPC's already at the stand to kite away, leaving you (and your own NPC army) to spike the bejesus out of the enemy Guild Lord. You could use AoE to pull NPC's in the base away from the Guild Lord to make it easier to spike him, or pull the Guild Lord away from the other NPC's (including his Bodyguard). This is just off the top of my head, mind. I don't think things like this should have the chance to play a decisive role in the outcome of a match.

Echos aren't unremovable, at least in a passive sense. Keeping an echo up requires spamming other shouts. Find a way to shut down the maintaining shouts and you shut down the echoes. Having to refresh your entire party's Mending Refrain while holding the flag stand isn't trivial.

That said, the skills out there that could actually be useful for these kinds of things aren't great. I suppose you could try to Diversion/interrupt something like Anthem of Flame, or use something like Soothing Images to prevent Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes spam, and you could always slot something like Vocal Minority or Roaring Winds, but these aren't really optimal.

I don't think LoD is going to become necessary again per say. As long as it doesn't become as powerful as it was pre-nerf, it should be fine. We've already proven that we can keep teams alive without it, and that we can force kills with the amount of offense that blockway leaves available. It's true that a viable LoD will probably let teams cut back on the defense if they chose, but by the looks of things, a blockway team could easily still turtle till VoD and have a shot. It's also true that you aren't entirely without other options. You could run a SoR Paragon, and you could throw SoC on there and use it for the occasional DH/HD. I know it's not the best choice, and again, other party heals could probably do with some buffing too, but what's available now shouldn't go away (unless Izzy really eff's up the next skill balance)

@LordHelmos, I thought about suggesting something like that, but it seemed kind of dangerous to me. I mean, if they can keep that NPC alive, blockway just had their job made easier for them. I don't know. Maybe sticking a few Paragons in the base would add credibility to an NPC advantage, especially if they pack some party buffs. I mean, how much more deadly would a (newly unblockable) NPC barrage be if it included Anthem of Flame, Anthem of Weariness, and Anthem of Envy? It wouldn't matter as much then if they couldn't coordinate their attacks, they'd still pose a decent threat. I dunno, just throwing it out there. In that example, RC might become overpowered in VoD play, so maybe too many conditions is a bad idea. I think it's an interesting direction, though.

Riotgear · Jan 19, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

A few things:

I really hate it when people piss and moan to developers about A.I. It's probably one of the most difficult things out there to do particularly well in a situation with any appreciable number of variables.

Bad AI has been a hallmark of GW since it was released. It can't be that complicated: Give each AI a "scatter" accumulator, have the accumulator go up any time they're hit by any AOE they're less than adjacent range from escaping, and if it goes too high (say 3 hits), have them step outside the AOE.

I'm hard-pressed to think of a game with a non-trivial AI that doesn't support avoid/fear points.

Quote:

Keeping an echo up requires spamming other shouts.

If your Paragon isn't AFK, I hope they're spamming other shouts.

Quote:

We've already proven that we can keep teams alive without it

Yes, by slotting PWK on the runner, ward on the mesmer, a Motivation/Tactics Paragons, cancel-casting the shit out of Aegis.

erk · Jan 19, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Shadow Form on a A/Me with Arcane Echo still achieves 100% uptime. that' s just plain broken. Reduce it so that can't possible happen.

ensoriki · Jan 19, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

isn't that only because of Paradox Allowing that to happen?

JR · Jan 19, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Shadow Form on a A/Me with Arcane Echo still achieves 100% uptime. that' s just plain broken. Reduce it so that can't possible happen.

Or people could just take the simple counters to that build? It's hardly broken, people just haven't adapated yet. Welcome to metagame 101.

Double Pact · Jan 19, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

One way or the other, it's not gvg so anet shouldn't care about it (when they've fixed gvg, they can go on to other arenas, i dont care)
Btw it might be annoying, but it isn't a very strong build...

FoxBat · Jan 19, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Give each AI a "scatter" accumulator, have the accumulator go up any time they're hit by any AOE they're less than adjacent range from escaping, and if it goes too high (say 3 hits), have them step outside the AOE.

Erm they've had that in PvE since the infamous "AoE" update, it's just that the # of hits is rather high in normal mode now.

The archers could be using this, but aren't by design for whatever reason.

Lordhelmos · Jan 19, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I really love the suggestion for aegis to only block X attacks per party member before it ends. This would make spells like guardian and SoD more important to cover the party once aegis' effect starts dropping under pressure.

There was another thing I was wondering. When it comes to wards, I was wondering if there was a way to make them "shrink" as they absorb hits and damage. For example: Have ward against melee shrink by X% everytime it absorbs a hit. As the pressure gets sucked into the ward, it grows smaller and smaller, making it harder to use and camp in. That would be cool, and the effect can be scaled with earth magic.

Dominator1370 · Jan 19, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

I really love the suggestion for aegis to only block X attacks per party member before it ends. This would make spells like guardian and SoD more important to cover the party once aegis' effect starts dropping under pressure.

There was another thing I was wondering. When it comes to wards, I was wondering if there was a way to make them "shrink" as they absorb hits and damage. For example: Have ward against melee shrink by X% everytime it absorbs a hit. As the pressure gets sucked into the ward, it grows smaller and smaller, making it harder to use and camp in. That would be cool, and the effect can be scaled with earth magic.

I'm pretty sure that almost all skills in the game have pre-defined ranges, i.e. in the area, nearby, adjacent, etc. I don't know if that was a convenience thing or if that's all the engine supports. If it could be done, it would be pretty cool. Otherwise, we could try someone's suggestion that the more people in the ward, the less it's block % is, if that's codeable.

ensoriki · Jan 19, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

I'm pretty sure that almost all skills in the game have pre-defined ranges, i.e. in the area, nearby, adjacent, etc. I don't know if that was a convenience thing or if that's all the engine supports. If it could be done, it would be pretty cool. Otherwise, we could try someone's suggestion that the more people in the ward, the less it's block % is, if that's codeable.

basing off how scorpion wire works

I think they can make something work based on feet.

DutchSmurf · Jan 19, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

basing off how scorpion wire works

I think they can make something work based on feet.

100 feet happens to be wand range, so I doubt they can.

ensoriki · Jan 19, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Eh, even if they can, it's not a terrific idea.
If that happen, then wards get bad, and to make up for that they increase the range of wards.

Anyone just whacking on it till it goes away is the same thing as displacement.

For what wards do they're should be more ease for interrupting them, or a better reward for doing so.

ensoriki · Jan 19, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Not enough buffs/nerfs to quench peoples thirsts.

Its like being in the desert dehydrating and someone gives you a water bottle only 1/4 full, thanks but...im still thirsty >.>

Need moar water.

Quote:

Just because it is possible to adapt to or counter a skill combination, it does not mean that combination is balanced. Are there counters? Yes, are the majority those counters very narrow and based on poor skills - thus not often part of any team build? Yes! That's why it's a problem.

I'd think it be a good idea to buff those counters.
Something like Shadow Form, Rending Touch would be nice if it was actually a touch skill.
Since it's a 5 energy skill on an 8 recharge, it wouldn't be to hard to put on a bar.

You could nerf things and just take them out of the meta.
Or you could buff some things and let the players shift it themselves.

Tiyuri · Jan 19, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Or people could just take the simple counters to that build? It's hardly broken, people just haven't adapated yet. Welcome to metagame 101.

You do realise, what you just said equates to the same thing that the PVE players say each time they see a proposed skill update?

I.e. Bring counters noob!

Just because it is possible to adapt to or counter a skill combination, it does not mean that combination is balanced. Are there counters? Yes, are the majority those counters very narrow and based on poor skills - thus not often part of any team build? Yes! That's why it's a problem.

Whilst I'm not sure I'd call shadow form overpowered, because it does not achieve victory, it certainly is an issue and an inelegant part of gameplay, it's only common viable purpose within the PVP game these days is to grief people, based on that ALONE it should be fixed up.

Skill X becomes a problem, skill Y counters skill X, thus skill X isn't a problem is a notoriously shallow way of looking at balance issues, you should know better, this certainly is NOT metagame 101.

Kyp Jade · Jan 19, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

but when you dont even need to bring such narrow counters to destroy shadow form sins... then what

Zabe · Jan 19, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

You do realise, what you just said equates to the same thing that the PVE players say each time they see a proposed skill update?

I.e. Bring counters noob!

Just because it is possible to adapt to or counter a skill combination, it does not mean that combination is balanced. Are there counters? Yes, are the majority those counters very narrow and based on poor skills - thus not often part of any team build? Yes! That's why it's a problem.

Whilst I'm not sure I'd call shadow form overpowered, because it does not achieve victory, it certainly is an issue and an inelegant part of gameplay, it's only common viable purpose within the PVP game these days is to grief people, based on that ALONE it should be fixed up.

Skill X becomes a problem, skill Y counters skill X, thus skill X isn't a problem is a notoriously shallow way of looking at balance issues, you should know better, this certainly is NOT metagame 101.

There is various skills to use against shadowformers. First to remove it, only skill is Chillblains, which is crap. But there are alot of useful skills overally, not just to counter that A/Me shit. Shock, ancestors rage and frozen burst to name few.