Curse

wuzzman · Jan 18, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

mashing pre-nerfed lod ain't going to save you from melee pressure.

Dominator1370 · Jan 18, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Not to be an asshat, but:
[skill]Ward against Elements[/skill][skill]Ward Against Harm[/skill]
work just fine. Not to mention, RoF, SoA, SB, PS, Shielding Hands, etc. all still trigger on elemental damage too. If teams have to slot a Ward against Melee and a Ward Against Elements/Harm, I'm sure they can figure it out. Mesmer elites suck anyway, you could probably just run a Dom mesmer with Ward against Harm instead of GoE -> Gale. At a moderate spec, Harm should cut non-fire damage by almost 1/3rd on casters, and fire by a ridiculously absurd amount. That, by the way, includes physical damage.

Oh, and while we're at it, physical damage is flat out the best in the game, with the possible exception of people balling and standing still in SF/SH etc, but I'd like to think that most players are a little smarter than an NPC at VoD. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but we have some pretty bright players out there. The fact that everyone (aside from the odd bloodspike or whatnot) is still running physicals in an absurdly block-heavy meta should attest to that. If it was as simple as "hey, they have 6 different ways of blocking, lets go grab a handful of Mind Blast ele's and blow stuff up", I have to imagine people would be doing it.

Andrew Patrick · Jan 18, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

So if the above statement is true, than why has there been no push to revert some of the party healing nerfs that have happened and tone down the blocking that it has created, which is what 90% of people have asked for...

Because my personal opinion does not dictate skill balance.

I can only make suggestions like any of you guys, I am not in the position to dictate. Nor would I want to be, because I am pretty sure I would fail at skill balance haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

So you're suggesting people run some kind of caster spike such as an obs flame spike so they can just be split on every map unless they happen to get burning isle?

No, I am simply entertaining the thought that if your playing rock paper scissors, you can either keep throwing rock against opponents that keep throwing paper, or you can say "everyone is using paper, maybe I should use scissors." I understand it is not that simple and that there are dozens of complications that make that analogy less than perfect. But I have also been around for quite a while, and have seen how people are quicker to suggest changes to their opponents build (via nerfs) than they are to adjust what they use. The old "I play rock, nerf paper, scissors is fine" phenomenon.

Is it impossible to beat blockway in general, or is it just difficult to beat with your build? Please understand I am just being the devils advocate here. As I said above, I hate blocking skills too!

I just don't know if it's overpowered, or if the meta is simply refusing to shift to deal with it properly. Just throwing that idea out there is all.

Riotgear · Jan 18, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

blocking only prevents melee damage. One could always take casters in a block-heavy meta.

Mind Blast is one of the only caster templates that produces any meaningful sort of pressure. Using casters as your damage backbone means you're either running spike, or you're playing HA and having your SH eles take a dump on everything.

Casters have never been able to match the damage compression that comes from a swift attack chain and DW, and hopefully never will, because it's so easy to deliver that damage that the instant it becomes possible, you'll just see people 123spiking people to death.

The problem in general with caster damage in general is that it's simply too easy. If skill-rewarding gameplay is to be maintained, it's going to have to stay a notch down.

Dominator1370 · Jan 18, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

mashing pre-nerfed lod ain't going to save you from melee pressure.

*sigh... How many times does this have to be said?

Party Heal -> Localized Prot | Party Prot -> Localized Heal

No one's suggesting straight heals.

wuzzman · Jan 18, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

caster pressure? LOL. You know the only template that won't run out of energy in 2 seconds is the mindblast template? Fact of the matter is 1 diversion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mindblast eles, 2 warriors >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your whole team and there isn't jack shit you can do about it.

Andrew Patrick · Jan 18, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Casters have never been able to match the damage compression that comes from a swift attack chain and DW

No, but they also don't get shut down with a couple monks spamming Aegis.

You are, essentially, saying melee attacks are better. Couldn't the ease of countering them be the only thing that keeps them from being overpowered? If you nerf the ability to block melee attacks, now they do more damage than casters and aren't as easy to counter. Is that really balancing the game, or is it just making a certain build more powerful? doesn't the concept of balance imply each option has advantages and disadvantages associated with them? Great pressure and, generally, high armor is the advantage of physical attackers. One of their major disadvantages is that pressure is easily prevented with blocking skills and blind. If you take that away or make it less effective, what is the down side to counter all the advantages these physical attackers have? Blind and Cripple are easily removed by the RC. Needing to be within melee range isn't that big of deal with snares and run buffs.

As someone said, even though people are running blockway, people are still taking melee attackers because, according to you, they are still better than casters. That tells me that casters are the ones that need to be stronger, not that the professions people still take despite being heavily countered in the meta because they are still better than the alternatives.

Again, just being the devil's advocate here...

Tab · Jan 18, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

caster pressure? LOL. You know the only template that won't run out of energy in 2 seconds is the mindblast template? Fact of the matter is 1 diversion <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< mindblast eles, 2 warriors <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< your whole team and there isn't jack shit you can do about it.

I think you meant '>' there.

wuzzman · Jan 18, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

*sigh... How many times does this have to be said?

Party Heal -> Localized Prot | Party Prot -> Localized Heal

No one's suggesting straight heals.

mashing party heals won't save you from melee pressure, mashing party heals won't save you from melee pressure. Party heals do jack shit if your midline can't mitigate alot of the damage. nerfing glph so that aegis can't be used but buffing lod will not solve anything. Its like the VoD change, giving npcs anti-block skills but removing the health drop doesn't help you. Now npcs are just harder to kill before vod.

Same with buffing lod but removing energy management for midline defense skills, sure you have 1 overpowered, badly needed party defense skill you can use but your going to mash it till your out of energy if you match the buff with a bigger nerf to defense.

Dominator1370 · Jan 18, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

No, but they also don't get shut down with a couple monks spamming Aegis.

You are, essentially, saying melee attacks are better. Couldn't the ease of countering them be the only thing that keeps them from being overpowered? If you nerf the ability to block melee attacks, now they do more damage than casters and aren't as easy to counter. Is that really balancing the game, or is it just making a certain build more powerful?

Again, just being the devil's advocate here...

This is why a lot of people are of the opinion that the continued nerf of defensive options is actually having the opposite of the desired effect. People need a way to keep their teams up, but playing against blockwebs kind of sucks... As an alternative, a lot of people have suggested improving party healing to viable levels, in the hopes of achieving a more active defense (party healing) as opposed to passive defense (Aegis, Wards).

This, by the way, makes offense more active as well, in a few different ways. For one, you don't have to twiddle your thumbs while you watch "block block block block" show up and wait for your Ranger/Mesmer to shut down the defense. Also, party defense, to be balanced, has to be relatively static (i.e. Ward is a fairly small circle on the ground). If you remove a reliance on static passive defenses, the emphasis on stand templates dissolves a little, giving your team a little more mobility. It's a heck of a lot easier to split without having to worry about an Aegis chain and a Ward.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jan 18, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

This is why a lot of people are of the opinion that the continued nerf of defensive options is actually having the opposite of the desired effect. People need a way to keep their teams up, but playing against blockwebs kind of sucks... As an alternative, a lot of people have suggested improving party healing to viable levels, in the hopes of achieving a more active defense (party healing) as opposed to passive defense (Aegis, Wards).

Thing is even back when Lod was decent people packed the exact same party defense as now, some times even more. No matter what tweaks you add to current heal party options or party prot will change things, unless certain skills are simply nerfed to the point using them won't be of benefit.

Winstar · Jan 18, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

No, but they also don't get shut down with a couple monks spamming Aegis.

You are, essentially, saying melee attacks are better. Couldn't the ease of countering them be the only thing that keeps them from being overpowered? If you nerf the ability to block melee attacks, now they do more damage than casters and aren't as easy to counter. Is that really balancing the game, or is it just making a certain build more powerful?

Again, just being the devil's advocate here...

This is where the problem problem lies. Teams are required by the power of physicals to take a lot of easy to use party wide protection like Aegis, Da, Wards, along with blinds and snares. But given the game is weighted around physical characters pushing through kills this approach slows games down to a halt essentially making it a waiting game until vod where everything gets blown up by spinters and ancestors.

Ideally split strategies would be used as an alternative to blockway. Either you gain NPC's or you score kills based on positioning mistakes of the other teams and collapse effectively to open windows in which to finish the game early. The problem is that blockway does an excellent job of negating both of those alternatives. Even given an NPC disadvantage Spinter/ancestors and the ability to tank a tonne of damage can equalize the field. Early evidence seems to indicate that the VOD changes have not in fact had the effective of making blockway less effective at VOD and the npc changes have made it mildly harder on splits. Second if you can, with little effort defend, NPCs and furthermore losing NPC's doesn't hurt as much as it should then there is little need to risk your neck and DP and potentially wipes by being forced to play the splits game. Just defend what you can, stay alive, and equalize everything vod.

So Blockway isn't just annoying, which it is, it absolutely discourages what would otherwise be excellent strategic alternatives, and alternatives that Izzy has said in the past that he wants to foster. Yes you can go out and play bloodspike, or caster spike but those are quite possibly the least interesting strategic alternatives you could propose.

Its not just party defense and prot that needs a change, but a corresponding adjustment to physical damage at the same time in order to compensate. Or a improvment to single target protting, anything else really...

wuzzman · Jan 18, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

This is where the problem problem lies. Teams are required by the power of physicals to take a lot of easy to use party wide protection like Aegis, Da, Wards, along with blinds and snares. But given the game is weighted around physical characters pushing through kills this approach slows games down to a halt essentially making it a waiting game until vod where everything gets blown up by spinters and ancestors.

Ideally split strategies would be used as an alternative to blockway. Either you gain NPC's or you score kills based on positioning mistakes of the other teams and collapse effectively to open windows in which to finish the game early. The problem is that blockway does an excellent job of negating both of those alternatives. Even given an NPC disadvantage Spinter/ancestors and the ability to tank a tonne of damage can equalize the field. Early evidence seems to indicate that the VOD changes have not in fact had the effective of making blockway less effective at VOD and the npc changes have made it mildly harder on splits. Second if you can, with little effort defend, NPCs and furthermore losing NPC's doesn't hurt as much as it should then there is little need to risk your neck and DP and potentially wipes by being forced to play the splits game. Just defend what you can, stay alive, and equalize everything vod.

So Blockway isn't just annoying, which it is, it absolutely discourages what would otherwise be excellent strategic alternatives, and alternatives that Izzy has said in the past that he wants to foster. Yes you can go out and play bloodspike, or caster spike but those are quite possibly the least interesting strategic alternatives you could propose.

Its not just party defense and prot that needs a change, but a corresponding adjustment to physical damage at the same time in order to compensate. Or a improvment to single target protting, anything else really...

buff party heals, buff active prots, nerf warriors. Yep thats solves....well at least I can get a cup of coffee while gvg'ing.

Riotgear · Jan 18, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

No, but they also don't get shut down with a couple monks spamming Aegis.

You are, essentially, saying melee attacks are better. Couldn't the ease of countering them be the only thing that keeps them from being overpowered?

If we didn't have Holy Veil, hexes would be overpowered. If we didn't have Infuse, PS or Spirit Bond, spike would be overpowered. None of these are a problem, it means that things are balanced against counters, which is generally good because it means players smart enough to work past those counters get somewhere and people that don't fail.

Casters simply do not have as many obstacles to work around to produce results. Pick a target within earshot, click, and they get hurt.

Quote:

Needing to be within melee range isn't that big of deal with snares and run buffs.

Melee range is more than an issue of getting to a target, it's an issue of announcing your intentions to the other team via your movement and allowing them to pre-empt it, as well as time spent transitioning targets when one gets protted up. It rewards players and teams able to deal with prot, and rewards players on the other team for effectively preventing the other team's melee from doing their job.

Quote:

That tells me that casters are the ones that need to be stronger, not that the professions people still take despite being heavily countered in the meta because they are still better than the alternatives.

Unless casters are going to wind up requiring more skill to play than "click a target and pew pew", then no, they don't need to be more powerful.

ensoriki · Jan 18, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

What other widely used "Cripple applications" are there? Unless barbed trap, hamstring, and leaping-mantis-sting all suddenly became crippling powerhouses, it sounds like they're deliberately trying to bring caltrops into competition with cripshot, which is absolutely laughable.

Cripshot is on a ranged profession that generally brings utility skills
Like Cripshot, Distracting shot and savage shot.

Assassin is a melee class, who If he wants a snare uses
Either BMT,LPS or Siphon speed
To use another Lead attack Or to go O-D-O-D means they have to take Siphon

If Caltrops is to be compared it should be compared to Siphon Speed, since both are in utility attributes.

In which case Caltrops is still bad, because Siphon Speed is just awesome.

Double Pact · Jan 18, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Erm just to come back to the "post the skills you want nerfed/buffed" thingy, i'd like to underline the splinter weapon/ancestors problem one more time. Actually, the two skills were an almost must in any balanced bar - the reason why ppl played rit runners.
Now that VoD is changed, this has (slightly) changed as well. Splinter is still strong, but not as strong as it used to be (though still strong enough to be a must have skill).
The bad thing is, that due to the lack of the "old" insanely imbalanced splinter weapon, i saw guilds simlpy taking two copies, thus kicking the ranger out of their builds and replacing him by a water elementalist with splinter/ancestors. (btw have you seen a spike with both warriors getting ancestors? it's insane...)
That's just ridiculous, isnt it?

wuzzman · Jan 18, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

took longer then expected to boot rangers out of GvG builds.

pygar · Jan 18, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I dont understand why bringing back LoD for the easy party heal is an improvement in ppls minds, if nothing else having more healing behind the blockweb will only make blockway stronger. (oh lookee, the enemy actually did some damage...LoD will erase that)

It may just be time for a new format to shake the "meta" up.....everybody who has been around knows what works in the current meta, and know what doesnt work....they keep doing the "hokey-pokey" with skills and nothing changes....and at the same time things that seem like they could be a good change skill-wise get shot down by people that say "but that would be boring".

I dont know what they could change with the format, but I know I've read tons of pages of suggested skill tweaks and that doesnt seem to be leading anywhere but argument (because usually changing one skill just gives another more power and people will just quickly switch to using the new "uber" instead) Make it so that 2 out of 4 or 5 GVG battles will run same as it ever was, then devise some new formats that randomly happen 1 out of 4 or 5 times......scenarios that are about control points and force splits, scenarios that are kill count battles.....make it so people dont know what scenario they might run into next, and people will start to reconsider bringing the same old build to their next game.

Woop Shotty · Jan 18, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Divine healing & "Fall Back!" changes are nice, but I don't see anything that's siginificant. I guess in my eyes that's probably a good thing though. They could reverse some things to make me happy, but if nothing big changes everything goes on in the world of PvE as if nothing happened... and now I'm queuing the inevitable reply from a PvP user to remind me that skill balance is pretty much a PvP matter. "GO!"

Double Pact · Jan 18, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pygar

I dont understand why bringing back LoD for the easy party heal is an improvement in ppls minds, if nothing else having more healing behind the blockweb will only make blockway stronger. (oh lookee, the enemy actually did some damage...LoD will erase that)

I think the whole suggestion was nerfing passive defense and therefore buffing party heals/direct heals/prot (LoD is included in the first category)