Curse

Captain Robo · Jan 18, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I would reserve that kind of analysis for Heal Party, because DH/HD aren't meant to be spammed, hence the recharge. They're niche skills that are more along the lines of "OH SHIT" buttons; designed to spike up your party's health when you really need it.

The problem is still the range, as if you mean to heal everyone with these skills, you're already prone to interrupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

It's far too hard to achieve anything on splits anymore. YAA used to be a great split character. Izzy (at least my guess is) wanted to buff it to try create more split templates for to encourage people to stop playing 8v8 till VoD and just spiking shit to win. Thing is, it's more the abundance of Mending Touch (amongst other things) than the skill itself that's keeping it from GvG.

A short duration didn't kill YAA, Cripslash did. But nowadays, we don't really mess around with solosplit the way YAA/Cripslash encoraged; you send a monk with your axe warrior, and he'll output more damage than either YAA or Cripslash could ever hope to do, and be incredibly resilient at the same time. There's just no point to buffing YAA whatsoever.

Kyp Jade · Jan 18, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

DH and HD wont see play unless its changed to allies within earshot, then you have an quick "OH SHIT" button to save NPC's before they die to splinter and you can throw some random prots on them. Also an ally change will make it playable in the lower forms of pvp such as AB

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 18, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

A short duration didn't kill YAA, Cripslash did. But nowadays, we don't really mess around with solosplit the way YAA/Cripslash encoraged; you send a monk with your axe warrior, and he'll output more damage than either YAA or Cripslash could ever hope to do, and be incredibly resilient at the same time. There's just no point to buffing YAA whatsoever.

I did say amongst other things, but yes. I mean, why send a YAA warrior to harass NPCs when you can just send a cripslash/eviscerate and kill them faster. Why send a YAA warrior to slow down a flagger when you can send a crip + war and actualy kill it. Etc.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 18, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

DH and HD wont see play unless its changed to allies within earshot, then you have an quick "OH SHIT" button to save NPC's before they die to splinter and you can throw some random prots on them. Also an ally change will make it playable in the lower forms of pvp such as AB

I doubt they'll see play until they get a 1sec cast time.

Div · Jan 18, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I doubt they'll see play until they get a 1sec cast time.

People will probably at least try these skills out (saw vD do it today), and then see if it's worth using the open slot for that skill.

6am3 Fana71c · Jan 18, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Meh...Not sure should I even cap Coward...I love my good old Evi too much

TheLordOfBlah · Jan 18, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

OK so I keep seeing: "omg wtf ancestors and splinter didnt get nerfed".. well.. their effectiveness was reduced when the +damage at VoD was reduced, any more than that would have been overkill. The skills are only overpowered at VoD, rather than making them shit everywhere, I think they handled it correctly.

But yea, most of the other skill changes were trash.

Winterclaw · Jan 18, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The fact that the other thread survived for 500 posts and 25000+ views shows how long it took Anet to put out a skill update. The quality of this update shows they don't care anymore. Enough said.

I think they stopped caring when they decided to rush out GW:EN and scrap GW:U.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 18, 2008, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLordOfBlah

OK so I keep seeing: "omg wtf ancestors and splinter didnt get nerfed".. well.. their effectiveness was reduced when the +damage at VoD was reduced, any more than that would have been overkill. The skills are only overpowered at VoD, rather than making them shit everywhere, I think they handled it correctly.

Except these skills aren't trash outside of VoD, they're more like decent to good skills outside of VoD, and VoD just supercharges them.

Zuranthium · Jan 18, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Ancestor's Rage is a great skill basically anywhere, anytime.

~Z

pygar · Jan 18, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Xan

Wow... the only thing I care about is the death of MB... [goodbye stupidly overpowered ress sig killer ;(]

Anybody who thinks that a 10 cost-or 4 cost as I like to call it in high expertise land has made magebane not worth the elite slot is gonna be really bummed out the next time they lose to magebane again. The only thing that changes with the cost change is now complaining about magebane shot will be treated as totally invalid...it's more balanced now.

Lykan · Jan 18, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Fail.

Does izzy actually play GW anymore or is he just pinning skill icons up on a dart board and leaving it to fate?

Not one of these changes will affect this stagnant meta.

evenfall · Jan 18, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Dev Notes are up for those interested.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20080117

Sun Fired Blank · Jan 18, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Just a couple of notes in TA:

1) Warmonger's Weapon remains problematic; the duration also has to be nerfed.
2) The change to Magebane Shot is a non-factor; I've not yet found a decent ranger that honestly gives a crap about paying for it.

And as a more unrelated note:

3) "Coward" is interesting; at 4A, I can see it potentially becoming a tactical instrument with power and use very similar to Gale and Blackout, but I don't know if that's good or not.

Skye Marin · Jan 18, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Coward can't be used on a split in the same way that Lion's Comfort is never used. Both need adrenaline to function at all. Adrenaline gain is a function of being in active combat and engaging a foe. YaA would be a better choice to snare Targets / Pursuers on a split, except Mending Touch screws that idea sideways.

Mending touch would be nice to be looked at for this function. I was thinking something like:
You remove one condition from target touched ally, and an additional condition if you or your target is under the effects of an enchantment. For each condition removed, you heal the target for 30..85 health.

Captain Robo · Jan 18, 2008, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Wow... these notes really show how little the devs know about the game.

Quote:

For this skill update, the primary goals are to further reduce the power of passive defense (and provide alternatives for those defenses), improve the late game mechanics in GvG, and improve some underused skills. As normal, this test period will be monitored closely by the play balance team so necessary adjustments can be made.

Guild versus Guild

* Victory or Death: reduced the damage bonus to +15%; removed the maximum Health reduction; Guild Lords now prioritize other Guild Lords over players as targets.
* Archers: now have Precision Shot.
* Footmen: now have Pure Strike.
* Knights: now have Warrior's Cunning.

These changes are primarily intended to adjust the impact of the block mechanic during Victory or Death and restore the importance of aggressive play throughout the match. Heavily defensive teams were too successful at consistently stalling games until Victory or Death, then using defensive skills to negate the impact of enemy NPCs while taking advantage of the damage bonus to compensate for their lack of offensive skills.

So you want to reduce the effectiveness of block effects during VoD?

Giving NPC's additional skills and reducing the amount of damage you deal even when you get THROUGH the blockweb seems like a really bad way to go about doing it.

If that's your goal, don't do it in some roundabout way: REDUCE CHANCE TO BLOCK AT VOD IF THIS IS A CONCERN.

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Assassin

* Viper's Defense: changed skill type to a spell; increased casting time to .25 seconds; functionality changed to: "All adjacent foes are Poisoned for 5..20 seconds, you Shadow Step to a nearby random location."
* Heart of Shadow: functionality changed to: "You are healed for 30..150 Health and Shadow Step to a nearby random location."
* Scorpion Wire: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
* Caltrops: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Viper's Defense and Heart of Shadow were far too unreliable and could, for example, cause the caster to Shadow Step away while in the middle of using a skill. This change is meant to give more control to the caster, and make these skills more active and fun to use. Scorpion Wire, an underused skill overall, became less attractive with the addition of Augury of Death, warranting a recharge reduction to improve it. Caltrops needed to be more readily available to compete with other Cripple applications, so we brought the recharge down there as well.

The reasons given for buffing Viper's and Heart are just plain stupid. First of all, who used these skills enough for this issue to become a legitimate complaint, and secondly: these skills are more than a year old... did it seriously take this long to notice the detrimental effects of these skills?

Everything about this buff is random. There's no sense to it.

Scorpion wire is now just plain stupidly good. It does for movement control what Augury of Death does for killing people, with even less conditions to be met. This skill makes it impossible for a character to kite away from you. It's only a matter of time before this becomes stupidly broken and rapes the meta for a while.

Caltrops will also never be cripshot. Why the hell are they even trying to go that route?

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Dervish

* Pious Assault: increased Energy cost to 10; functionality changed to: "You lose 1 Enchantment. If this attack hits, you deal +5..20 damage and inflict a Deep Wound for 5..20 seconds."

Aside from the Avatar of Melandru/Wearying Strike combination, options for inflicting Deep Wound were extremely limited for Dervishes. This rework of Pious Assault aims to grant that option to other Dervish builds.

Want other dervish builds to be viable? Define a role for the dervish that doesn't include condition neutralization, massive crits, and stomping power.

Instead, you gave them another ridiculous skill.

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Elementalist

* Elemental Flame: increased Burning duration to 3..5 seconds.
* Glyph of Essence: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
* Chilling Winds: increased duration to 30 seconds.

We took this opportunity to increase some underpowered Elementalist skills. Elemental Flame gets much more attractive at low attribute levels, Glyph of Essence receives a nice recharge reduction to find room on crowded skill bars, and Chilling Winds gets a duration increase to allow it to spread to multiple targets.

Water elementalists have no room to make use of the minimal effects provided by Elemental Flame, and even if they did, nobody would take this skill. Who the hell tailors skills around low attribute builds, especially a skill that does absolutely nothing on its own?

Glyph of Essence never had a place on crowded skill bars. A recharge reduction will not change that.

Chilling winds is [still] awful.

Does Anet know what an elementalist actually does? These buffs would lead one to believe otherwise.

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Mesmer

* Wastrel's Worry: increased damage to 20..80.
* Mind Wrack: increased duration to 30 seconds.
* Kitah's Burden/Ethereal Burden: reduced recharge time to 30 seconds.
* Hex Eater Vortex: decreased damage to 30..90; increased recharge to 15 seconds.

Hex Eater Vortex was too prevalent in spikes on a single target, wiping off important protection spells while inflicting solid damage. The damage reduction and recharge increase should put more emphasis on the double-removal aspect. Kitah's Burden and Ethereal Burden had overly long recharges for movement reduction Hexes, so we knocked a third of that time off the top on both. Wastrel's Worry is intended as a staple-yet-conditional Mesmer damage spell, but its low, unguaranteed damage made it unattractive. Upping the damage here should more appropriately reward the times when it does succeed. Finally, many of the skills that could cause problems with Mind Wrack have received power decreases over the last several months, which makes us comfortable inching this skill back up a notch.

Did anyone else do a double take after reading the first sentence? I certainly did. That's not what HEV does, and that's not why it should be nerfed. I agree with their move, but they should at least get their terms straight, because HEV doesn't remove "protection spells".

Kitah's/Ethereal were bad before, and they're still bad now. These skills are going to continue collecting dust, so why were they updated? Why would I ever use these skills over cripshot, or any water snare?

Wastrel's and Mind Wrack are decent, but the reasons given for buffing them are downright wrong. Mesmers aren't meant to be primary damage dealers, and any damage they might deal is usually a side effect of skills such as HEV or Shatter. Leave damage to the frontline.

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Monk

* Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight: increased the area of effect to earshot.
* Patient Spirit: decreased duration to 2 seconds; increased healing to 30..120 Health.
* Restore Life: decreased casting time to 4 seconds.
* Renew Life: decreased casting time to 4 seconds.
* Vengeance: increased damage bonus to +25%; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds.
* Aura of Stability: decreased duration to 1..16 seconds.

Touch-range, repeatable-use resurrection skills still proved too unwieldy for common use in PvP, so we'd decided to give them a generous casting time reduction to make the payoff more in-line with the difficulty of use. Patient Spirit is intended to be a slow but efficient maintenance-style heal, but was far too weak to perform that function previously. Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight received an aggressive range change to serve as an alternate heal for an entire group within the Divine Favor line, while Aura of Stability received a duration decrease to stop endless chains of it to invalidate knock-down.

Other than the first sentence, this seems rather reasonable.

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Necromancer

* Signet of Agony: increased damage to 10..70.
* Wail of Doom: decreased Energy cost to 10.

Wail of Doom had a high price even before casting: it's both an elite and in a primary-only attribute line. We wanted to make the skill more usable for those who did decide to make those investments by reducing the Energy cost. Signet of Agony's damage was far too low to warrant any use, so we increased that to add some raw power to this overlooked skill.

Signet of Agony still doesn't do enough damage, but it might be used to make Angorodon's Gaze even more retarded.

Wail of Doom is alright, too bad the rest of the bar would suck.

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Paragon

* Spear of Fury: increased adrenaline gain to 2..6 strikes.
* "We Shall Return!": decreased Energy cost to 5.
* "Fall Back!": decreased Energy cost to 10.

Spear of Fury gets a boost to its adrenaline to help out Paragons, especially in PvE. "We Shall Return!" fits our goal of improving resurrection as a whole, while the lower Energy cost for "Fall Back!" will make it a more viable choice for split tactics in GvG.

The buff to fury is okay, but not really necessary.

"improving resurrection as a whole" is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Many of the skills in this game are RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO; is buffing resurrection their answer?

Utterly laughable.

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Ranger

* Power Shot: decreased activation time to 1 second.
* Precision Shot: decreased activation time to 1 second.
* Penetrating Attack/Sundering Attack: decreased activation time to 1 second.
* Magebane Shot: increased Energy cost to 10.

Power Shot, Penetrating Attack, Sundering Attack, and Precision Shot were a bit lackluster in their effects. The intent of a faster speed is to increase overall bow damage output. Magebane Shot has become the clear elite choice for Rangers in GvG due to its low cost and high effect. At 10 Energy, this skill should now be more appropriately priced.

Really the only good changes of the lot.

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Ritualist

* Rejuvenation: increased Spirit's level to 1..16.
* Sight Beyond Sight: increased duration to 12..25 seconds.
* Sundering Weapon: now affects the next 3 attacks.
* Warmonger's Weapon: increased recharge time to 30 seconds.

Rejuvenation's low Health made its lifespan too short to take advantage of its effect, so we increased the level to compensate. Sundering Weapon gets additional attacks for more chances to spread Cracked Armor on different foes. Sight Beyond Sight's duration came up slightly, further rewarding this skill choice on Ritualist builds that include melee attacks. Warmonger's Weapon was an endless, unremovable, powerful enhancement that could lock players down for a whole game in 4v4 PvP formats; the recharge increase means it will not be a permanent factor.

This has already been beaten to death. Although I find the extent to which Anet pushes Cracked Armor quite humorous.

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Warrior

* "Coward!": decreased adrenaline cost to 4 strikes.
* "You're All Alone!": increased duration to 8 seconds.

"Coward!" and "You're All Alone!" are primarily split-friendly skills that enable Warriors to engage in skirmish tactics, so improving them should help Warriors perform better when away from the main group in GvG.

They think that buffing two skills, much less, two dead-and-buried skills will convince people to change the play style of a class which already has a well-defined role? Who the hell is driving this thing!

Coward is going to be ridiculous on a paragon, I hope to God this change isn't permanent.

The irrelevant skill changes in this update come across as cheap and shoddy. They don't address current issues, and I don't know why Anet thinks that they can attempt to resurrect year-old mechanics and skills on a whim. This update was unfocused and does not push the game in the right direction.

Zabe · Jan 18, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Please post specific skills you feel still need to be looked at so I can forward it to the design team on Monday. As the update said, we are going to make more adjustments as needed, so please provide detailed feedback so I can pass it on.

Tell us a one good reason to do so. You have in the past year shown that you don't care. And I'm not even confused about it because you run a business and you want to do $$$. PvE'rs bring you that $$$ what you want, not PvP'rs.

But I think as you run the business, you have done your homework and seen that currently, there are no other games like GW to go for, so you can do this kind of skill balances, where, as some people already said, 10% are good and needed, but the 90% left from it, is just some random PvE buffs.

For the VoD changes, I can't say anything, because haven't played any games yet after the update or even observed. But on paper it looks atleast a decent one.

DarkNecrid · Jan 18, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

Tell us a one good reason to do so. You have in the past year shown that you don't care. And I'm not even confused about it because you run a business and you want to do $$$. PvE'rs bring you that $$$ what you want, not PvP'rs.

But I think as you run the business, you have done your homework and seen that currently, there are no other games like GW to go for, so you can do this kind of skill balances, where, as some people already said, 10% are good and needed, but the 90% left from it, is just some random PvE buffs.

For the VoD changes, I can't say anything, because haven't played any games yet after the update or even observed. But on paper it looks atleast a decent one.

You have the wrong guy.

Andrew cares, I can guarentee that. But its not his fault if the messages he sent get ignored. Don't shoot the messenger.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 18, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by pygar

LOL...great idea, maybe they should just cut to the quick and just remove Ranger as a character class...I mean it really seems like if Rangers have skills that actually do something besides run faster or do little handfulls of damage that barely matter, people just cant handle it.

You're bad. DShot has needed a slight nerf for a long time now.

pygar · Jan 18, 2008, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

You're bad. DShot has needed a slight nerf for a long time now.

Lots of things need nerfs depending on who you ask....but when I observe PvP I see about one ranger per every two teams....same said teams loaded with almost every other type of class (I saw a GvG team a few weeks ago that was almost entirely Necros, they were handing ppl their asses, worst one-sided wins I have seen in GvG). In RA there are tons of rangers, but i think it's cuz ranger is popular with people, not because they are the best thing to ever waltz into the arena. Hero battles Rangers get to have pets, so big advantage there. (unfortunatly for me,I hate using pets)

It's ok, if they nerf D-shot too, I'l just switch over to playing one of the horribly broken, horribly over-used, never gonna gonna get nerfed classes out there like P-gon or Necro or assasin or Monk or Warrior or Dervish or Ritualist or Ele or Mesmer.....ahh, like i said, just remove ranger, if they actually help a PvP team win people just get angry.

(And yes, I am bad....terribly pessimistic when I can be- but mostly just dont see where all the ranger hate comes from.....as much as I love my Ranger,sometimes they just dont seem that far out compared to some of the other crap out there)