Curse

yum · Jan 17, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Did any of you notice the HUGE buff to [skill]Scorpion Wire[/skill]

Anyway, <3 warmonger and magebane nerf, now TA can be a bit more enjoyable.

Kyp Jade · Jan 17, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Hero controls, makes it REALLY easy to do hero ranger spike, perfect 99% of the time too. Plx ban heroes from HA/GvG now

frojack · Jan 17, 2008, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'll give a partial pass on minimal skill changes because of the huge VoD change. I'd like to see how that plays out before the metagame gets all wonky from big balance changes.

That said stuff like Fear Me, Augury of Death, Ancestor's Rage, and the party healing problem will likely be front and center for the next update. Continual failure on those issues does not reflect well.

Thats exactly what I thought. Small steps... It's a good idea to see what people do with the huge change to the most important part of the pvp game before going nuts with skill changes.

The game wasn't exactly massively broken before this...

Andrew Patrick · Jan 17, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I asked Izzy specifically about IWAY and "Fear Me" and he said it was still under evaluation. He was actively playing HA when he said that, so yeah...it is definitely being evaluated as we speak.

Just because a skill is not in the initial update does not mean it won't be updated over the course of the next week. Rest assured your feedback has been and will continue to be passed on.

Oink The Pig · Jan 17, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Before this update, if the other team's archers were allowed to get set up at VoD, they had a pretty nasty Pin Down spike against an unprotted target.

With the newly buffed Precision Shot added to Archers, I would imagine they'd have a nice unblockable spike on whomever charged into them to try to take them down with Splinter Weapon. The other NPCs now also have unblockable attacks to tip the scale in favor of the team that protected its NPCs better.

So basically, this skill balance seems like a buff to split builds, and a slight nerf to blockway. Depending on how well the AI uses these new additions, teams may start packing additional prots like SoA or Shielding Hands.

Until the VoD changes can be fully evaluated, though, this is not a skill balance that can really be declared a "fail" just by looking at the skills individually.

As for the other formats, weakening Warmonger's, Aura of Stability, and Magebane Shot should have some impact without killing those three skills.

EDIT: As for IWAY/"Fear Me!", I actually think it's in a decent spot. Sure, it's easy to run, but it's easy enough to beat. They have a 2-Paragon backline with 2 Infuses and no blocks. Their defense relies on a spirit spammer. You have the option of bringing two necro skills that can completely hose 7 out of 8 of their players. Good teams still beat bad IWAY teams and good IWAY teams beat bad teams. Good IWAY vs. good non-IWAY still comes down to who makes fewer mistakes and who makes key plays.

DarkNecrid · Jan 17, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

I asked Izzy specifically about IWAY and "Fear Me" and he said it was still under evaluation. He was actively playing HA when he said that, so yeah...it is definitely being evaluated as we speak.

Just because a skill is not in the initial update does not mean it won't be updated over the course of the next week. Rest assured your feedback has been and will continue to be passed on.

Hi Andrew,

I know you and Izzy are taking small steps since the VoD changes, but I implore you two to still nerf Splinter Weapon. The VoD changes aren't enough to make Splinter NOT GOOD, it still owns.

For Warriors, a buff to Healing Signet is much needed. That's really the only thing they need buffed, to increase splittability espically with the new NPCs.

For Rangers, I can't really think of anything glaring.

For Monks, a buff to party healing (DH/HD was a HORRIBLE buff Andrew, I mean....we need actual GOOD party healing, and DH/HD isn't it....yet.)

For Elementalists, a buff to their under-used utility would be nice (stuff like Magnetic Aura, underused Air and Water spells, etc.)

For Necromancers, good luck...

For Mesmers, a nerf to PLeak and Diversion would be nice.

For Assassins, nerf their damage output all across the board, buff their utility.

For Ritualists, nerf Splinter.

For Dervishes, make other elites besides Melandru's viable? Please? I beg of you?

For Paragons, this is the best idea I can think of: nerf all their buffs (since they are unstrippable) but lower the activation/cost/recharge time of all the buffs. Weaker effects are much needed.

Thanks.

wuzzman · Jan 17, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

the Npc change will be something to see in the meta. sad to see people are screaming about HA bull after getting such a fundamental shift in probably the most important part of the game.

Well when HA is reduced to monk ball, eleball, and randomway I will be busy playing TF2, Supreme Commander, and Savage 2.

I don't feel like sticking around when guild teams have to spend 20-30 minutes trying to kill smiteballs who sole purposes of existence is hoping you resign or trying to pug when everyone who doesn't want to play some sort of "ball" build insist on playing randomway only. Really don't care how much you nerf the game, a sh*tty balance won't make it past UW unless it fights another sh*tty balance.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 17, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oink The Pig

So basically, this skill balance seems like a buff to split builds, and a slight nerf to blockway. Depending on how well the AI uses these new additions, teams may start packing additional prots like SoA or Shielding Hands.

Except now that NPCs are stronger, it's also easier to defend against offensive splits.

Of course, this is just one of those things that you have to let sit and just let people play it out to figure out what will happen.

FoxBat · Jan 17, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I'm not saying this excuses them, but some of the random updates are clearly PvE-oriented. Especially the [skill]Spear of Fury[/skill] one, but the power shot, vengeance, wastrel's worry etc. look similar. So trashing every single pvp-pointless update isn't necessarily useful. (Of course, raking them over for not updating X important skill is always welcome.)

Skye Marin · Jan 17, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

The whole update is kinda mild. Not many significant buffs or nerfs, and not many buffs that really do anything good. Scorpion wire is gonna be kinda odd, but work well with the falling skills and Dash to pull it off.

Here's my picks for the second round:

Nerfs

Augury of Death - Change to "cause deep wound on your next critical hit" and remove the teleport

"Fear Me!" - Make adjacent with a maximum of 1..3 targets affected

Avatar of Melandru - make 50%..80% condition reduction, so blind doesn't faze it, and it can still use Wearying strike well, but Deep Wound and long-duration degen conditions have some weight.

Shadow Form - For 5..20 seconds, 75% of all attacks against you are blocked and you cannot be the target of spells. This enchantment ends when you have over 65% health. When it ends, you take 250...100 damage.

Mystic regen - cap of +10 regen from this enchantment, increase recharge to 15

Buffs

Magehunter Smash - Causes knockdown, unblockable to enchanted foes (increase to 6 strikes)

Healing Spring - increase range to Area

Blessed Light - lower cost to 5, if a hex is removed, lose 5 energy

Contagion - lower sacrifice to 5% health

Shatter storm - lower cost to 5, lower recharge per enchantment to 5 seconds (maximum 15)

Gust - always causes a 3-second knockdown with Exhaustion. Exhaustion prevented with an elemental hex on target

Seeping Wound - causes -1..4 degen with an extra -1..4 degen if target is bleeding or poisoned. 1/4 second cast

Shelter/Union/Soothing/Displacement- lower cost and buff Boon of Creation, but make only earshot range

Incoming - make "target ally" and "nearby allies", lower recharge to 10, damage reduction is 65% for all affected allies under 65% health. Makes affected allies immune to life-stealing (if technically possible).

Onslaught - increase to 50% cost reduction and 33% recharge reduction

ensoriki · Jan 18, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Shadow Form - For 5..20 seconds, 75% of all attacks against you are blocked and you cannot be the target of spells. This enchantment ends when you have over 65% health. When it ends, you take 250...100 damage.

Lulwut? It would still be 60 recharge, and last 40 seconds with arcane echo.

With 75% block, most people aren't going to bother to attack that assassin anyways.
65% health and you cause a inferno of flames from pve. Which leads to head ache and a revert shortly after. And people would be able to Almost have it up all the time.

hurric · Jan 18, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

disagree with splinter nerf. It has been nerfed once and people are already saying nerf again without testing the new changes to NPCs. Warmonger is a good nerf which won't make it totally useless but it's not too powerful either.

I don't get "Fear me". Does Iway give that much trouble in HA? any half balanced team should be able to shut down Iway with a hex or 2 on paragons so I don't really see a dire need to change this. Am I missing something? hex/cover hex on para or interrupt the chants. :S

Edit: where's update for echo-shadow form non sense in HA

BlackSephir · Jan 18, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Reminds me of the 'balance' not long ago with Searing Flames buff.
I mean, random as hell.

wuzzman · Jan 18, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

assassin utility will just be put on a mesmer, ele, or necro if buffed. Presently there is no reason to bring a sin caster unless it does damage.

Kyp Jade · Jan 18, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

The problem with fear me is not that it is not hard to beat. Good teams still crush iway, good builds still crush iway. The problem with fear me, is for the amount of skill required to mash a button on recharge every few seconds, you get a HUGE return out of it, as opposed to playing a balanced build.

ALso when playing HA, I have different situations where i call different targets, usually when I am playing pressure or pressure/spike (most often recently spike/pressure...) I want to call what is hurting us the most first, that means frontline/midline. I expect my mesmer to be able to harass monks enough that I dont have to call them every second spike, or ask for pressure on them.

However, ever since iway teams dropped the necro backline, which couldnt support the team as it was, iway was suicide pressure, and added the paragon backline, I have an entirely different strategy. KILL THE PARAGONS. The dual para backline is harder to crack with pressure than balanced builds are. THe best option is to spike, respike, and switch to other para spike. This niether promotes good play or battlefield awareness since I am the caller and I completly ignore what the warriors / ranger is doing since I can do NOTHING to them at all (unless I am hexway, which is OP on its own)

No, instead I am training the paragons untill they die, hoping my backline doesnt crack to fear me pressure before I run them out of res sigs. It is pointless to pressure the warriors because the damage is so easily cleaned up with chorus of restoration, which in an iway team is MUCH more powerful than LoD was (prenerf) in a balanced team. NOT to mention that there are two copies of it, and ballad of restoration. The paragon elites as well say GO FOR ME SCREW THE WARRIORS, since SoR and SoP are so much cleanup and are very effecient at it.

I am in no way calling for a nerf to motivation, it is gimped enough outside of iway teams as it is. The only skills a balanced team can really make use of is SoR and ballad. The point is that modern iway teams promote the idea of GANK THE BACKLINE. The only reason they take infuse is that spiking them down is the only real way to kill them (unless your hexway) Oh and the mesmer cant play with the paragons, the mesmer gets to play with the spirit spammer.

How does the paragon backline relate to fear me? It gives fear me enough time to work, fear me itself is a slow pressure skill, the paragons just give them the time to get it to work. However, because of the HUGE amount of pressure that four warriors apply by hitting fear me every couple of seconds, it isnt so slow anymore. Now from 30s after the match starts (the amount of time it can take 4 wars to drain monks energy without being stopped) onward, its up to the skill of your monks dealing with both e-denial, and mindless d-chop spamming. D-chop itself also doesnt reward skill, its a lucky catch more often than not. Between switchign energy sets and dodging d-chops, its a question of will your monks (that take more skill than spamming motivation shouts) crack before two 100 armor targets that are harder to kill do.

(before in old iway you could kill warriors, trappers, or whatever because the necromancers simply could not support high pressure, plus they died fast to post infuse, the paragon backline today doesnt)

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 18, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

shadow form is a good skill how it is. just because you're too bad and can't handle it in HA doesn't mean it deserves a nerf.

LuckyGiant · Jan 18, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Please post specific skills you feel still need to be looked at so I can forward it to the design team on Monday. As the update said, we are going to make more adjustments as needed, so please provide detailed feedback so I can pass it on.

Quick someone compile him a list, O WAIT theres a 500 reply thread thats been up in the past 2 months. Seriously...

With regards to the changes, EVERY SKILL UPDATE: 10% decent changes 90% rubbish...every skill update.

hurric · Jan 18, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

The problem with fear me is not that it is not hard to beat. Good teams still crush iway, good builds still crush iway. The problem with fear me, is for the amount of skill required to mash a button on recharge every few seconds, you get a HUGE return out of it, as opposed to playing a balanced build......

I got ya. Thanks.

on a side note, even if they further nerf splinter or ancestors, izzy shouldn't do so without buffing something else to keep Rits around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

shadow form is a good skill how it is. just because you're too bad and can't handle it in HA doesn't mean it deserves a nerf.

Tell me how's running around in SF/echo have anything to do with being good/bad in the game. It serves absolutely no purpose other than go in with heros and hope other team resigns.

Suggestion to fix that is that you can't echo an elite consecutively. You need a 30 sec gap between them or something like that. without trying to break the N/Me + Mo UW farmers

Moloch Vein · Jan 18, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

I asked Izzy specifically about IWAY and "Fear Me" and he said it was still under evaluation. He was actively playing HA when he said that, so yeah...it is definitely being evaluated as we speak.

Just because a skill is not in the initial update does not mean it won't be updated over the course of the next week. Rest assured your feedback has been and will continue to be passed on.

List of N skills I feel should be given some thought:

Price Of Failure - Function change to End On Miss, shorten recharge, lower cost, increase damage or cause Deep Wound

Reckless Haste - Function change to End On Miss, Knockdown or Deep Wound on end

Wail Of Doom - Shorten recharge, shorten disable time. Ideally, change to Skill

Angorodon's Gaze - Link energy return to Soul Reaping, decrease life stealing to Vampiric Gaze levels

Chilblains - Return number of enchantments removed to original

Icy Veins - Move to Death Magic

Foul Feast - Remove from game or rework completely, it is useless

Cacophony - Now removes x...y shouts/chants/echoes/refrains on target

Consider moving Wither, Malaise and Depravity to Soul Reaping. Restore Wither to its original state of -2E and -2HP degeneration.

Buff damage to Dark Pact, Touch Of Agony and any other DD health sacrificing skill to reflect the hit point level players are normally running. Alternately decrease the sacrifice.

ensoriki · Jan 18, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

-.-

make them more conditiony based, with various other effects. I liked the Assassin updates now, those kind of things are neato, but buffing utility w/o nerfing their damage is just lol.

I'm not saying not nerf things.

But, if an assassin doesn't have reason to be played, why play him?
If the mesmer can utilize his utility better, no one is going to take that assassin.

You nerf this damage, across the board and put in this utility.
A lot of sin utility is currently spells, Mesmer's going to take that.