Curse

Riotgear · Jan 23, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Maybe so, but if 4 physicals and a mesmer isnt considered high offense then what is?

Correct. The fact that you're able to saturate a team with this many roles at once is really testament to how bad the power creep is.

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The build isn't really 'blockway' at all and the only reason why I'd consider it 'boring' is because it's pretty much the only viable build to run, unless you run some gimmick or split based build.

Personally I find cancel-cast spamming and praying I'm not going to get p-leaked to be extremely boring. Oh yeah, and playing a Paragon cures insomnia.

Captain Robo · Jan 23, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

In fact, most stuff you say is pretty far from the truth.

Is it possible to go even one thread without trolling?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 23, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Correct. The fact that you're able to saturate a team with this many roles at once is really testament to how bad the power creep is.

It has a lot more to do with the lack of party healing than power creep..

Quote:

Personally I find cancel-cast spamming and praying I'm not going to get p-leaked to be extremely boring. Oh yeah, and playing a Paragon cures insomnia.

Paragon bars right now are extremely bitchy at first glance, but it's a very versatile template in 8on8 fights a good player on a partygon can actually put out quite some damage by switching targets, attacking frenzied warriors, assisting spikes and making optimal use out of warmongers.

I don't really see how this is any more boring than say a tainted necro, smiter or other midline characters people have run in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Is it possible to go even one thread without trolling?

Is it possible to go even one thread without stating your opinion as fact when you're often blatantly wrong?

RotteN · Jan 23, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The majority of these builds ARE designed to ultimately win at VoD if they cannot win before it

the ultimate goal of competition is to win, so what's wrong with making sure "your build can win at VoD if they cannot win before it" ?

Lorekeeper · Jan 23, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

the ultimate goal of competition is to win, so what's wrong with making sure "your build can win at VoD if they cannot win before it" ?

because GW competition, and the balance that creates it, should not depend so much on exploitable game mechanics like NPC AI. VoD has shifted from an unfortunately necessary mechanic to prevent equal match ups from going on forever to a mechanic that plays a vital role in almost every match, so much so that teams are dedicating so much more of their build towards it. In the past people would bring 1 or 2 VoD tricks, like meteor shower or well of profane, or shields up... nowadays you get entire characters built (read:motigons and splinter rits) designed with the VoD battle in mind. You might aswell skip straight to VoD if you consider how stale and boring the rest of some matches go.

Its all a consequence of reducing the amount of time teams get to try out a range of tactical moves against their opponents with VoD occuring at 18min, for most teams it becomes far more convenient and safe to play a boring stall game and do their best to have the upperhand at VoD with positioning and flag. Im guessing people would rather lose because of a chaotic VoD battle involving NPCs rather than lose because they kept getting wiped while ganking and giving up morale+NPCs due to their more proactive behaviour.

I think its alot to do with psychology... not alot of teams are comfortable with flexible play... and while they are uncomfortable with that aspect of GvG... they probably would choose to adopt more boring static styles of play instead.

I dont think stalling to VoD is about teams wanting to win at VoD, because theres not really that much that differentiates your chances at winning at VoD to your opponents (unless you actively force advantages) . I think stalling to VoD is much more about teams not wanting to lose BEFORE VoD.

Psychologically, i think for some teams, they feel as though they accomplished something if they lasted until VoD even if its because they adopted an incredibly stale stalling strategy. Losing before VoD causes some people to feel deflated.... at least if you only suffer a couple of deaths before VoD your mid and backlines will feel better about themselves...

the ego has a significant factor in competitive behaviour.

(of course this doesnt always apply to higher tier teams... because they have the confidence to seek resolutions in matches before VoD... for higher tier play it is exactly the competitiveness of dynamic play that gives them satisfaction and a feeling of achievement... the need to survive until VoD generally resides within less experienced/less capable team who dont have such confidence in their ability and would seek little to further damage their low confidence)

Captain Robo · Jan 23, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

the ultimate goal of competition is to win, so what's wrong with making sure "your build can win at VoD if they cannot win before it" ?

There isn't anything wrong with it, and I didn't mean to imply that there was. You have to play to win, and you have to play what wins.

I think the situation, however, is a bit disheartening because it's like playing quake with nothing but the BFG9000. Everyone has the most stupidly powerful gun in the game, and if you don't use it, you will almost assuredly lose. It gets really old after a while.

I'd like to see less fire and forget defense skills, more party survivability that doesn't promote broken metagames, and GvG as fun and skillful as it used to be.

Now Immortalmitch can tell me I'm wrong.

Neo-LD · Jan 23, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I dont think stalling to VoD is about teams wanting to win at VoD, because theres not really that much that differentiates your chances at winning at VoD to your opponents (unless you actively force advantages) . I think stalling to VoD is much more about teams not wanting to lose BEFORE VoD.

Psychologically, i think for some teams, they feel as though they accomplished something if they lasted until VoD even if its because they adopted an incredibly stale stalling strategy. Losing before VoD causes some people to feel deflated.... at least if you only suffer a couple of deaths before VoD your mid and backlines will feel better about themselves...

the ego has a significant factor in competitive behaviour.

Well, thats partially the case. GW is indeed flooded by downright terrible players that just cant play any other way than hiding behind passive defenses and executing a familiar algorithm at VoD. If they were ever forced to think, to try, to actually play, they would miserably fail.

But the fact of the matter is that there are plenty of players left that are not bad, and these are the ones most often calling for balances that promote more active play. However, even they choose to use passive defenses and plan for VoD, because there simply isnt any other choice. VoD occurs too often, and VoD tools are too vital to success when it comes.

Riotgear · Jan 23, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It has a lot more to do with the lack of party healing than power creep..

Paragons have been compacting utility into one player slot a bit too much from day one.

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I don't really see how this is any more boring than say a tainted necro, smiter or other midline characters people have run in the past.

The introduction of b-surge midliners and hydro runners made things a good deal more interesting, so to see it devolve into Motigon trash is pathetic.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 24, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The introduction of b-surge midliners and hydro runners made things a good deal more interesting, so to see it devolve into Motigon trash is pathetic.

Hm, hydro runners maybe (they are still viable btw) Bsurge eles are a pretty boring template in an 8v8 situation as well though, they only start to get somewhat interesting if you split a lot with them (offensively, defensive split with bsurge eles is just stalling time till vod..)

TheOneMephisto · Jan 24, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Bsurge eles are a pretty boring template in an 8v8 situation as well though, they only start to get somewhat interesting if you split a lot with them (offensively, defensive split with bsurge eles is just stalling time till vod..)

I don't think that you can argue about the fact that bsurge is a lot more interesting than partygons, no matter what the game situation.

Lordhelmos · Jan 24, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

The state of the game really sucks right now. Although I dislike the meta heavily, addiction keeps me going.

Aragiel Cz · Jan 24, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

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Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

The game should be less luck more skill. I don't have a problem having my melee spike stopped by SoD, because the monk knew it was coming and used his skill to reflexively stop my attack. However, getting attacks through like 4 layers of 50% based defense that covers the whole party is stupid.

Eh.. common.. that´s not true.. less or more luck? Are you kidding? What blockweb?

First you need to know.. that we as players are responsible for metagame.. so don´t blame Anet for that. Of course everyone will take best skills but anyway the game isn´t about luck.. it´s about skill and how you are able to handle it.

Second - there is no issue with blockweb... go to observer and watch how top teams are playing vs r800 guild for example.. do you see blocks? I´m sure match like this are done in 5 minutes. Why?.. because top team know how to handle it.. how ti interupt and especiatelly what need to be interupted ! I see you respond.. why top guilds are playing until VOD? because simply they have good offense and of course they monks know how to fake and don´t be interupted... They know how to use their weapon sets... Then you can usually see how they are splitting, making doubleruns with flag to have advantage in VOD, etc..

End of the story.. - if you as warrior are seeing only block on your attack.. then first.. blame yourself because you are probably attacking well protected target.. then your mesmer and ranger is not doing their job.. and finally if you are not seeing block and your enemyes are still alive.. you should probably uninstall GW or try to play different character.

Dominator1370 · Jan 24, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aragiel Cz

Eh.. common.. that´s not true.. less or more luck? Are you kidding? What blockweb?

First you need to know.. that we as players are responsible for metagame.. so don´t blame Anet for that. Of course everyone will take best skills but anyway the game isn´t about luck.. it´s about skill and how you are able to handle it.

Second - there is no issue with blockweb... go to observer and watch how top teams are playing vs r800 guild for example.. do you see blocks? I´m sure match like this are done in 5 minutes. Why?.. because top team know how to handle it.. how ti interupt and especiatelly what need to be interupted ! I see you respond.. why top guilds are playing until VOD? because simply they have good offense and of course they monks know how to fake and don´t be interupted... They know how to use their weapon sets... Then you can usually see how they are splitting, making doubleruns with flag to have advantage in VOD, etc..

End of the story.. - if you as warrior are seeing only block on your attack.. then first.. blame yourself because you are probably attacking well protected target.. then your mesmer and ranger is not doing their job.. and finally if you are not seeing block and your enemyes are still alive.. you should probably uninstall GW or try to play different character.

Wow. Thank you. Thank you! Here I was cursing the fact that I had to be awake at this godforsaken hour, and you've just gone and made my entire day.

It's simply beautiful. Beautiful! You're running around talking like you know everything, making fun of people and calling them stupid, all while proving that you're completely and utterly clueless. r800? Who gives a shit?

Neo-LD · Jan 24, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

What Dominator is trying to say is that while Blockway is perfectly counterable, it really sucks to have GvG reduced to having your ranger and mesmer play whack-a-mole.

Captain Robo · Jan 24, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

If its not the ranger or the mesmer, it will be something else. I think the concept of whack a mole really appeals to both the people who make this game, and the people who play it. You're going to have it in the game in some form or another.

Vaga · Jan 24, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I'd rather deal with people sitting in a defensive ball by blowing them up with AoE like putting rotting on my mes or a fire ele somewhere than having systematically interrupt all there stuff. Too bad you can't get any spells like that off without getting interrupted.

That said I'd also rather passive defense wasn't very effective considering how much skill it takes to use. Then again casting your passive defense takes
about as much skill as playing a paragon.

Kaon · Jan 25, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

I'd rather deal with people sitting in a defensive ball by blowing them up with AoE like putting rotting on my mes or a fire ele somewhere than having systematically interrupt all there stuff. Too bad you can't get any spells like that off without getting interrupted.

That said I'd also rather passive defense wasn't very effective considering how much skill it takes to use. Then again casting your passive defense takes
about as much skill as playing a paragon.

I must say a line in defense of paragons.

Yes they are indeed boring to play, but the new incarnation requires you to do much at the same time, making it enjoyable for a short period, and the targeting requires skill.

There i said it. Now nerf it to oblivion plx.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jan 25, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Landing a normal hit on softies for 9 dmg after going through aegis/ward is good fun.

Yue · Jan 25, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I must say a line in defense of paragons.

Yes they are indeed boring to play, but the new incarnation requires you to do much at the same time, making it enjoyable for a short period, and the targeting requires skill.

There i said it. Now nerf it to oblivion plx.

p/me requires you to do more.

Vaga · Jan 25, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I must say a line in defense of paragons.

Yes they are indeed boring to play, but the new incarnation requires you to do much at the same time, making it enjoyable for a short period, and the targeting requires skill.

There i said it. Now nerf it to oblivion plx.

What I really meant was outputting damage as a paragon, you can't really nerf passive defense without doing something about paragon damage output.