Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 15, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Reduce the amount of NPCs to what it was before, move VoD back to 20/25 at the very least.

red orc · Jan 15, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Maybe just make spears fly slower. This way if you run a defensive paragon you loose pressure, and high powered attacks by paragons are more easily avoided. To compensate for the easy way the paragon has to dish them, and no need of positioning.

Kaon · Jan 15, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

I can't quite follow the logic of why you want interrupts nerfed. I may be an interrupt fanboy though. Interrupts are an amazing aspect of GW and a large part of why it is such a dynamic game. They are also one of the few types of skill that are actually a challenge to use effectively. Stale gameplay is exactly what would result if effective and dangerous interrupts are nerfed beyond usefulness.

Interrupts are awesome, but these days shutdown is almost entirely interrupt based. Back in the day you had blackout (one of the worst moves ever to nerf it) gale, and better e-denial.

The problems with interrupt based shutdown are simple:

- Lag plays a HUGE role. That's why japanese never run mesmers or rangers, as they are only useful when playing against their own countrymen, and why they always run hexes because you cant interrupt them anyway. This also gives euros a disadvantage over americans.
- 40/40 sets can turn guild wars into a game of chance. Having played water elementalist a lot it happens quite often that an enemy runner comes close and getting my snare through means boost. However i KNOW i have a mesmer and ranger on me, this means the only way i can snare him is by fastcast or by faking correctly (which usually isnt possible at all). This practically means we have a 36% chance on a boost, it's a simple dice roll. Other examples for instance are fastcast wards (where interrupt on ward can often mean rickroll) aegis, and a few months ago LoD to a heavy degree.
- It's impossible to interrupt 3/4s spells (you can only interrupt these vs your own continent) when drunk or tired!! And against asians or sometimes even against americans it's even impossible to interrupt 1s spells then, this of course depends on your level of tiredness and intoxication

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

Maybe just make spears fly slower. This way if you run a defensive paragon you loose pressure, and high powered attacks by paragons are more easily avoided. To compensate for the easy way the paragon has to dish them, and no need of positioning.

Spears already fly incredibly slow, a huge amount gets dodged. But in a spike the opponent is knocked so they dont dodge.

Vanquisher · Jan 15, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

I can't quite follow the logic of why you want interrupts nerfed. I may be an interrupt fanboy though. Interrupts are an amazing aspect of GW and a large part of why it is such a dynamic game. They are also one of the few types of skill that are actually a challenge to use effectively. Stale gameplay is exactly what would result if effective and dangerous interrupts are nerfed beyond usefulness.

The buffing of interrupts to a ridiculously good level (Power Leak) has resulted in Mesmers, for the vast majority, becoming about who has the better computer/reaction time/server rather than who is the most aware. I like interrupts to an extent. The ability to keep track of skill recharges and stop them comng to the fore requires solid play, but when the class entirely revolves around server and connection it gets really stupid.

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Now to the real argument: It's more an issue of weakness of the 2 monk backline, as witnessed by the silly power of stupid stuff like heroway. Simple pressure overwhelms monks easily, and pressure typically takes much less skill to generate. In my view, it is fully acceptable to take a setback if your monk is getting powerleaked several times in quick succession (cancelling ftw btw). This is skilled play IMO and a fairly rare occurence anyway. Interrupts create a window of opportunity, much like diversion, there's nothing wrong with that.

Cancel spamming vs. a bar with 3 interrupts makes you completely useless. And once again is determined based on ping.

Ensign · Jan 15, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Stale gameplay is exactly what would result if effective and dangerous interrupts are nerfed beyond usefulness.

Interrupts were largely unused back in the GWFC days, and I'd hardly call that an era of stale gameplay. Disruption being reduced to spamming Diversion on recharge and hoping your ping is good enough to reactively interrupt a spell, if they didn't happen to get a fast cast, is extraordinarily stale compared to what I was used to during this game's golden age.

erk · Jan 15, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Interrupts were largely unused back in the GWFC days, and I'd hardly call that an era of stale gameplay. Disruption being reduced to spamming Diversion on recharge and hoping your ping is good enough to reactively interrupt a spell, if they didn't happen to get a fast cast, is extraordinarily stale compared to what I was used to during this game's golden age.

By the same token I am not a fan of Rangers doing nothing else but standing there with Apply Poison and spamming Magebane -> D-shot -> Savage -> D-Shot on a single caster all day, as the recent spate of mindless Magbane interrupting seems to have produced. Ranger interrupt camping is not a great show of versitility like the old solo BA ganker use to be. And Rangers are overloading RA/TA as well as GvG with the Magbane fotm. So spamming interrupts are back in style.

/EDIT I should probably emphasize that I am on a 400ms ping here in Australia so we can't play the Interrupt game back at them very well, but most Australian teams use builds from obs that were created by low ping teams. That's an issue where blockway might work better.

frojack · Jan 15, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

By the same token I am not a fan of Rangers doing nothing else but standing there with Apply Poison and spamming Magebane -> D-shot -> Savage -> D-Shot on a single caster all day, as the recent spate of mindless Magbane interrupting seems to have produced. Ranger interrupt camping is not a great show of versitility like the old solo BA ganker use to be. And Rangers are overloading RA/TA as well as GvG with the Magbane fotm. So spamming interrupts are back in style.

Well it's not like this situation isn't entirely artificial. Izzy & co aren't stupid. They knew exactly what they were doing manufacturing that change.

Warmongers from 15 energy to 10? An obviously dangerous-to-broken creation, even dwarfing it's admittedly pointless contemporary (Wailing) by a huge margin. The whole LoLsin epidemic...

It seems that the game will always drift from one extreme to another in terms flavor (or simply Fotm) and Anet seems content with this. So much as to continue doing the above and even as 'obviously' as this. The game balance ninja act seems long dead... If it could ever be called that.

From a cost/benefit stand-point, it makes cold, logical sense. Their situation in the market is entirely unique and maintenance/expense is always a tricky business.
It's not entirely bad from a casual perspective. Change is good for the most part, and stagnant is still stagnant. Even in and ideal scenario. However from the perspective of most of you here (the hardest of the hardcore) I can completely appreciate how exasperating this situation is....

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 15, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Reduce the amount of NPCs to what it was before, move VoD back to 20/25 at the very least.

Agree 100%, though I really hope they make it 30-35.

Lordhelmos · Jan 15, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

To me there really has never been a point of ideal balance in guildwars PvP. The metagame each month is really just shifting the power of one extreme tactic to another. In this case, overwhelming partywide defense and interrupt games to crack the gambit are really at the forefront of GvG. With so many skills in guildwars there will probably never be a "perfect balance," as a community I think our insights and discussions on what the problems with the metagame are important. Afterall who wants to see the same problems all through next month?

Currently I am in agreement with the rediculousness of the interrupt game and issues with server ping. Alot of cracks in the blockweb feel as if they are chance based, due to the fast casting chance and ping as mentioned before.

The problem with blockwebs such as aegis chains and ward v. melee is that they are % based skills. When two teams are pitted in a deadlock against each other in such conditions, the pressure game turns into a dice roll in regards to how many warrior attacks can make it through the 50% as both teams ward camp; while of course mesmers and rangers are struggling with luckshots from fast cast skills praying that the enemy doesn't get a lucky draw off their 40/40 set for their ward cast.

It really feels like your getting shafted based on just a dice roll rather than actual skill. In otherwords, the dependency on the meta off these % based means of partywide damage reduction feeds the pressure each team places on the other towards random number generators over actual player skill. I mean hell, you can lose monks just because some warrior gets a lucky spike on a guy standing at the edge of the ward and the almighty god of heads and tails decided to take a dump on your backline.

Zuranthium · Jan 15, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

- 40/40 sets can turn guild wars into a game of chance.

Yep, never been a fan of this mechanic.

~Z

Sinful Doom · Jan 16, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Reduce the amount of NPCs to what it was before, move VoD back to 20/25 at the very least.

I am really in favor of this. The only real drawback would be towards AT's though. There is enough setting around waiting for the next match as is with all the forfeits that occur...

Cass · Jan 16, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Kaon, none of these are reasons to address interrupts specifically IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

- Lag plays a HUGE role. That's why japanese never run mesmers or rangers, as they are only useful when playing against their own countrymen, and why they always run hexes because you cant interrupt them anyway. This also gives euros a disadvantage over americans.

Because lag means those interrupts on your bar are suddenly much less powerful, they need to be nerfed more?

Yes, lag will determine whether you can get spells in the .66 (e.g. mesmer ward) - 1s (e.g. fc aegis) range. In my view, you should always be able to get these, ping-wise, the fact that you cannot is more a reason to buff Anet servers than to nerf things though.
Lag is bad in any game. It is however reasonably fair. In my experience the host server is somewhere 'in the middle' of both guilds' home base, which normally results in both teams experiencing similar lag. So all it does is change interrupting dynamics for everyone, reducing their power.

Quote:

- 40/40 sets can turn guild wars into a game of chance. Having played water elementalist a lot it happens quite often that an enemy runner comes close and getting my snare through means boost. However i KNOW i have a mesmer and ranger on me, this means the only way i can snare him is by fastcast or by faking correctly (which usually isnt possible at all). This practically means we have a 36% chance on a boost, it's a simple dice roll. Other examples for instance are fastcast wards (where interrupt on ward can often mean rickroll) aegis, and a few months ago LoD to a heavy degree.

Yes agreed, to an extent fc sets do introduce a strong chance element. So does a Ward's 50% block though. And when I am trying to hit stuff under Price of Failure it always seems like that 25% to miss manages to 'luckily' make 3 out of 4 attacks miss. GW is based on a lot of chance rolls. Are you OK with 36% recharge then? Those aren't directly affected by interrupts but they do make a similar difference, based on chance entirely (i.e., a fr aegis when you've suffered a disruption in your defense will prevent a teamwipe).

Anyway, it also seems to me that bringing a water snarer means you willingly take this chance (^^) of getting interrupted-- their spells aren't mostly slow casting for nothing. Besides, HEV > water ele, talk about a game of chance.

Quote:

- It's impossible to interrupt 3/4s spells (you can only interrupt these vs your own continent) when drunk or tired!! And against asians or sometimes even against americans it's even impossible to interrupt 1s spells then, this of course depends on your level of tiredness and intoxication

.

Beer needs a nerf!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The buffing of interrupts to a ridiculously good level (Power Leak) has resulted in Mesmers, for the vast majority, becoming about who has the better computer/reaction time/server rather than who is the most aware. I like interrupts to an extent. The ability to keep track of skill recharges and stop them comng to the fore requires solid play, but when the class entirely revolves around server and connection it gets really stupid.

Cancel spamming vs. a bar with 3 interrupts makes you completely useless. And once again is determined based on ping.

Reaction time is a big part of personal skill, it should pay off in my view. As I argued above, lag only reduces interrupt power, and it acts as a universal pacifier for both teams.

Mesmers usually carry only power leak and power drain as far as I am aware, so cancelling is generally quite worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign

Interrupts were largely unused back in the GWFC days, and I'd hardly call that an era of stale gameplay. Disruption being reduced to spamming Diversion on recharge and hoping your ping is good enough to reactively interrupt a spell, if they didn't happen to get a fast cast, is extraordinarily stale compared to what I was used to during this game's golden age.

Maybe, but I begin to wonder whether this partially reflects positively biased memories of longtime players. What was so dynamic then? Gale locking monks?

RotteN · Jan 16, 2008, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

What was so dynamic then? Gale locking monks?

gale locking was addressed before the GWFC

however, i disagree interupts were unused back in the days

just look at the builds from WM vs Te in the GWFC :

http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3968

1st match :

WM : gale, a hammer war, 2 power return

Te : dchop, 2 shock, gale, pleak, pdrain, dshot and savage

i'd say that's a fair collection of interupts

Riotgear · Jan 16, 2008, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Because lag means those interrupts on your bar are suddenly much less powerful, they need to be nerfed more?

They need to be made less important in the overall scheme of things when factors other than actual player skill interfere so easily.

Quote:

So does a Ward's 50% block though.

The odds of doing much to a target with 50% block up are so bad that unless you're going to get a major effect out of a single hit that it's more of a suppression effect than something that leaves things up to chance. This is not the case with making sure your Aegis/Ward saturation keeps up, which is indeed based largely on luck.

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Besides, HEV > water ele, talk about a game of chance.

HEV needs to go away.

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Maybe, but I begin to wonder whether this partially reflects positively biased memories of longtime players. What was so dynamic then? Gale locking monks?

The fact that monks were capable of standing up to the offensive threats without layer upon layer of defense to protect them.

Vanquisher · Jan 16, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Reaction time is a big part of personal skill, it should pay off in my view. As I argued above, lag only reduces interrupt power, and it acts as a universal pacifier for both teams.

Mesmers usually carry only power leak and power drain as far as I am aware, so cancelling is generally quite worthwhile.

Maybe, but I begin to wonder whether this partially reflects positively biased memories of longtime players. What was so dynamic then? Gale locking monks?

First point - reaction time is and should not be the biggest part of skill in this game. There are far more important factors such as awareness, and decision making that should be taken into account. Others include (pre-)kiting, skill use, and positioning. Reaction time is there, sure, but it shouldn't be the trump card. Especially when the mechanic isn't even put down to that only.

Rangers now are taking 3 interrupts, all with very quick recharges. Power Leak's buff from massive recharge to short recharge was really, really bad.

Anyone who played back then who plays now will fondly look back on those times. I never got to a World Championship but I can tell you that the game was much more dynamic and fun. The competition was more fun, and people were constantly tested by different players playing builds, different or the same, in vastly different ways.

Yue · Jan 16, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

The fact that monks were capable of standing up to the offensive threats without layer upon layer of defense to protect them.

Monks are still capable of standing up to offensive threats without defense webs.

Quote:

Rangers now are taking 3 interrupts, all with very quick recharges.

What? I've only seen 2 teams do that, and one was a bunch of japs with a shitty ranger.

Zabe · Jan 16, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Monks are still capable of standing up to offensive threats without defense webs.

As I have monked bout 2 years now from the boonprots, through different forms of blessed lights to current meta. I must say that Try to do a 4/4 split with your current monks, oh yea, you can't, because you just will be rolled (Speaking of normal balanced). With boon or blessed you could do that. Ofcourse there were the EP HP spammer taking care of widespread pressure, but still, I do miss the good old BProt and Blessed monk days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

What? I've only seen 2 teams do that, and one was a bunch of japs with a shitty ranger.

Atleast I have seen a ton of euro magebaners carrying MB, Dshot and savage.

red orc · Jan 16, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

As I have monked bout 2 years now from the boonprots, through different forms of blessed lights to current meta. I must say that Try to do a 4/4 split with your current monks, oh yea, you can't, because you just will be rolled (Speaking of normal balanced). With boon or blessed you could do that. Ofcourse there were the EP HP spammer taking care of widespread pressure, but still, I do miss the good old BProt and Blessed monk days.

Atleast I have seen a ton of euro magebaners carrying MB, Dshot and savage.

MB+DShot+Savage, is a little overdoing it, dont you think ?
I'd rather take MB+Dshot and some pressure/damage over Savage (cannot go without DShot for it's skill locking)

RotteN · Jan 16, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

carrying savage shot when you already have magebane is stupid to say the least, who needs that seriously ? It's not like you're going to interupt so much more with it ...

Elrodien · Jan 16, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Most Magebanes I see bring Dist. Shot and Sloth's not savage. 3 interupts kinda gimps the bar imo.