Curse

Yue · Jan 13, 2008, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Uhm, people pretty much stopped running blockway since LoD got nerfed.

I remember alot of blockway in a certain recent monthly tourney.

Do you?

And contrary to that assertion, people started running blockway again BECAUSE of lod nerf.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 13, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

And then what?

As far as I remember teams went from three monk backlines to two booners and an EP ele, with bflash on a flagstand ele. Wards were also common too, I know last pride had a ward on their flagstand team for a long time.

Aegis was common on the flagger too when it wasnt earshot range. Especially around the release of factions till a long while into nightfall this was true.

Joe

So you would send shit into their base to force them to keep that extra defence away from the stand.

red orc · Jan 13, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

When I go observing I see a lot of high end guilds playing bloackaway 8*8.
I dont get it, realy.
When I see a guild coming with a para/blockaway, I almost always split, the flagstand group turns to defensive play while the other group that may consist of 1, 2 or 3 people (and the number change during the game) play aggressive game to make a break, or gain advantage in VOD.
What am I missing here ? why something that is used by the low end guilds is missing from the high end ?

Vanquisher · Jan 13, 2008, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

As far as I remember teams went from three monk backlines to two booners and an EP ele, with bflash on a flagstand ele. Wards were also common too, I know last pride had a ward on their flagstand team for a long time.

No. The majority of teams used 1 Boon Prot and 1 Infuse when they went to a 2 Monk backline, if even picking up a Boon Prot. Most builds at the time were spike, so most Eles still packed Mind Shock then also.

When teams started running Eles more and more at the stand, it was only natural to run a Ward as well, but it didn't just appear all at once, it gradually came in to assist. Besides, Wards have been run since BWE's as one of the ways to deal with builds that rely on Warriors to get kills.

Quote:

Aegis was common on the flagger too when it wasnt earshot range. Especially around the release of factions till a long while into nightfall this was true.

Very, very few people ever ran Aegis on Flaggers when Factions was released. Don't know what you're talking about there. And even when they started to do so, it's not like it hadn't been done in the past (Te's Glyph Renewal / Aegis E/Mo prior to Observer Mode is the first one that springs to mind).

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 13, 2008, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

I remember alot of blockway in a certain recent monthly tourney.

Do you?

And contrary to that assertion, people started running blockway again BECAUSE of lod nerf.

I wasnt around for last monthly, but look at the euro meta right now, everyone runs 2 warriors, paragon, mesmer, ranger, 2 monks, rit.

DutchSmurf · Jan 13, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

What is the problem with that so-called blockway anyway? How is it any different then running 2 wards, 2 guardians, often at least 1 copy of aegis and most important, distortion on everything that isn't a warrior? I think as warrior you have a better chance to hit something then you had a year ago. Just because half of it was called evade instead of block doesn't mean you hit more. What people call blockway now isn't that much different then the perfectly balanced build before Factions came out. Or am I missing something?

Kaon · Jan 13, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

What is the problem with that so-called blockway anyway? How is it any different then running 2 wards, 2 guardians, often at least 1 copy of aegis and most important, distortion on everything that isn't a warrior? I think as warrior you have a better chance to hit something then you had a year ago. Just because half of it was called evade instead of block doesn't mean you hit more. What people call blockway now isn't that much different then the perfectly balanced build before Factions came out. Or am I missing something?

Quoted for truth.

Also, on the HEV topic: That skill is a piece of shit and the ultimate evidence of Izzy's failure as a game balancer. It is either entirely useless, or it totally wtfrapes the opponent team. It makes running a water ele simple rock paper scissors. Eventhough a good water ele can slightly manage it, the entire purpose of the skill is ridiculous.

R O C K Y · Jan 13, 2008, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Yeah a lot people are running duel aegis monks plus tactigon with ward melee on the mesmer.

You can break it down with gud memser + ranger, teams are running magebane rangers (with a snare runner) which helps break down this web faster.

The currtent meta SoR/ballad tactigon passive defence (meh except Shields up) isnt blockway, just lame global passive heals and armor which more then makes up for the lack of LoD.

Vanquisher · Jan 13, 2008, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

What is the problem with that so-called blockway anyway? How is it any different then running 2 wards, 2 guardians, often at least 1 copy of aegis and most important, distortion on everything that isn't a warrior? I think as warrior you have a better chance to hit something then you had a year ago. Just because half of it was called evade instead of block doesn't mean you hit more. What people call blockway now isn't that much different then the perfectly balanced build before Factions came out. Or am I missing something?

Like I said, Aegis wasn't in as many builds as you'd think before Factions came out, nor was it afterwards. It was more after the GWFC that people bringing it more, and quite a big part of that was down to seeing how you can go in and play defensively, before nuking NPC's down at VoD and winning, as demonstrated by iQ in Germany. Prior to that people tended to run condition pressure, builds with a strong ability to split, or what would often be called "balanced" despite playing it in a purely adrenal spike manner, and there was little deviation from that.

Distortion needed to get nerfed. Though nothing is wrong with it, other mechanics, most importantly a really quick VoD, make for boring games. 2 teams running massive defense webs just sitting there trying to spike each other out is bullshit, and it's generally worse because big mistakes have a fallback so they go unpunished a lot of the time. I don't care because I don't bother to watch those games, and don't think balance should be altered on account of interesting viewing, but I can understand how people could want to rip their eyes out of their sockets playing in such an environment.

And when people ran Distortion every Warrior in the game bitched about the amount of block they encountered. Also, who, aside from PnH, ran 2 Wards? I don't really remember seeing more than 1 Ward against any team that mattered.

And finally, teams are required to run heavy defense webs because of the way of thinking in terms of game balance. Nerf defense, buff offence has been going on for a long time now, and it's clear from the lack of willingness to do anything about the power of certain interrupts that this probably won't be changed any time soon.

Farin · Jan 13, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

EviL ran 2 wards a few times.

Captain Robo · Jan 13, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

People will whine all they want about blockwebs, but there is no other option.

The fact of the matter is that you don't have to mop up lots of damage with party healing when your party doesn't take damage in the first place. Passive defense allows your party to mitigate their own damage, while maintaining aggressive momentum and making healing much easier for your monks. Party healing is great when you can use it to top off party members and keep multiple people alive under condi/hex-spam, general warrior pressure, and really anything else that deals damage to multiple targets.

But party healing in place of passive defense is just a waste of time. You have to constantly pump energy into keeping those red bars up, where a simple Aegis/DA/Ward would have made your job a lot easier. LoD was hands-down, the best party healing skill ever made. Nothing healed as much, as many people, as fast, and for so little mana as LoD did. However, LoD wouldn't have been as good if there wasn't so much passive defense at the same time! The skill, by itself, can't carry a match without a blockweb up; and it just goes to show how frail a blockweb is when so many teams crumbled after their LoD went down.

Now that we've been reduced largely to single-target healing, it becomes a lot harder on the monks to keep multiple people alive, even when the blockweb is preventing a lot of damage. Where LoD could clean up that mess in a single casting, [insert random monk skill here] requires at least eight to do the same job.

Also consider this: LoD received a healing nerf, and a casting time nerf. Aegis has received many nerfs over its lifetime, and is still being used today. Aegis has a long recharge, short duration, and 2 second casting time; but the effect it provides is so vital that you can almost never afford to leave this skill behind. Can we say the same thing about LoD nowadays? Absolutely not.

Partywide Protection is infinitely better than partywide healing could ever be, because it allows your teammates to avoid taking damage altogether.

However, if you want more "active defense", you will regret it. If we compare Aegis (passive) to Guardian/SoD (the active versions), the shortcomings of these skills are immediately apparent. SoD and Guardian will prevent lots of damage on their own, BUT ONLY IF AN ATTACKING WARRIOR IS STUPID ENOUGH TO NOT SWITCH TARGETS. A good warrior will see Guardian/SoD go up on one target, and immediately switch to a new target of opportunity.

In this way, your Guardian/SoD has done NOTHING. It has prevented no damage, and you have wasted energy preventing something that never came. Aegis, however, does not have this disadvantage! Warriors cannot switch targets effectively under aegis, because everybody has a 50% block rate, and must simply wait it out the best they can.

By no means am I saying that Guardian/SoD are bad skills; but they are certainly much harder to use than Aegis is, and far less effective in the long run (though SoD is great for stopping spikes). They're great for single targets, but neither of those skills mitigates damage in the way Aegis does.

At any rate, you should understand that the amount of time and energy spent micromanaging active defense skills would be downright stupid in the face of passive defense. This is why Aegis, Wards, and DA are king. They have unremovable effects, can protect multiple people at once, and are bargain-priced for the effects they provide.

If you're having trouble dismantling an opponent's blockweb, I would recommend that you follow the advice first given to you in this thread:

Get a better ranger or mesmer.

Either play it, or get beaten by it. The great thing about balanced is that two teams can play the same build completely differently... how's that for diversity?

erk · Jan 13, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Uhm, people pretty much stopped running blockway since LoD got nerfed.

Matches go to vod because every map has 9001 NPCs now and it's easy to turtle.

No they haven't, of the dozen or so matches I played this weekend, we either faced Blockway or Hexway teams.

DutchSmurf · Jan 13, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

No they haven't, of the dozen or so matches I played this weekend, we either faced Blockway or Hexway teams.

Think you are just unlucky with who you face, or playing in the US. Since the EU/Asian metagame is changing to more mobile builds lately. Saw many guilds changing their ele from Blinding Surge to Water Trident. I even watched 5 interesting matches in a row (interesting as in mobile teams, enough deaths to keep things entertaining).

Vanquisher · Jan 13, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Deaths don't make things interesting. If they did, people would love pure spike. They don't though, because it's not an interesting option in comparison to the tactical game.

erk · Jan 13, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Think you are just unlucky with who you face, or playing in the US. Since the EU/Asian metagame is changing to more mobile builds lately. Saw many guilds changing their ele from Blinding Surge to Water Trident. I even watched 5 interesting matches in a row (interesting as in mobile teams, enough deaths to keep things entertaining).

I play B-Sure warder a lot, but I would like to be more mobile too but the Monks like wards

The hexway were mostly Asian teams and the others ran blockway, even a couple using SoD in the top 300 still. Came across one guild who I forget the name of, about 130 on the ladder using Migrane, Depravity, Corrupt in the midline, quite nasty with just a couple of Veils in our team. Mind you I have nothing against a dual Necro + Mes midline as long as it's not passive crap like spirts or minions. Anti-melee hexes are nice change from blocks.

Kaon · Jan 13, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Deaths don't make things interesting. If they did, people would love pure spike. They don't though, because it's not an interesting option in comparison to the tactical game.

Eh... What? An interesting game for me involves both teams constantly pressuring (including some kills) the each other with the upper hand varying constantly. Strategies adjust and for the full length of the match you squeeze the best out of your bar and position you can.

8v8's without deaths can be interesting, but are always more boring without deaths. Splitting action without death is a useless 20minute wait.

sidenote: Vanq, have you actually played the last 4months?

TheOneMephisto · Jan 13, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Deaths don't necessarily make things interesting, it just happens that a lot of the things that do make things interesting involve deaths or focus on creating them.

Morgoth the dark · Jan 14, 2008, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Not having to play with 500 ping everytime facing euros while they get their average 150 ping would be nice...

/fail.
i'm from EU and i have about 300+ ping almost all the time facing other continent players. It's not big ping just for you...

Vanquisher · Jan 14, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Eh... What? An interesting game for me involves both teams constantly pressuring (including some kills) the each other with the upper hand varying constantly. Strategies adjust and for the full length of the match you squeeze the best out of your bar and position you can.

8v8's without deaths can be interesting, but are always more boring without deaths. Splitting action without death is a useless 20minute wait.

sidenote: Vanq, have you actually played the last 4months?

Closer to 14 months, other than a short time during the summer. I have watched quite a lot though, and kept up with balance updates, sort of.

Re: interesting game, one that is evenly matched is often interesting, but the post mentioned deaths alone, and the only way you're almost completely assured such things is in spike builds. Personally, I like seeing two good teams playing well, punishing mistakes, and trying different things to get around the others defences. I don't think there has to be a special type of build to make for interesting games, though there are definately ones that make for boring games. Mind, I also don't think how interesting a game appears to be on Obs Mode is any reason to talk about the balance issues and they should be done based need.

Persh · Jan 14, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

*snip*
Partywide Protection is infinitely better than partywide healing could ever be, because it allows your teammates to avoid taking damage altogether.

proactive vs reactive