Curse

Lordhelmos · Jan 12, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Lately in the GvG meta, I've been noticing a rediculous amount of blockwebs being put up in balanced teams due to the loss of Light of Deliverance on the monks. Now that monks have been reduced to singular heal builds, mainly with Word of Healing + Infuse at the core of the backline healing.

Blockway (or the stacking of a rediculous amount of wards, aegis chains, and defensive anthem paragons/weapon of warding rits/eles) is more prevelant in GvG play because there is so much damage pouring into the party from the front line melee, mindblasters, and pressure game that the only way the monks are able to keep up with the damage is to turtle in a fortress defense that allows them to keep their party alive through the use of 2-3 layers of blocking.

This has transformed the metagame into King vs. King matches and deadlocks that run long into VoD as each team is forced into keeping up their blockwebs while trying to shift the battle into their favor by either controlling the morale boost or interrupting the enemy wards.

The amount of passive defense being seen in GvG is downright rediculous. The result of having removed nearly any efficient means of partywide healing has caused the use of partywide blocking skills to replace what was lost by the raw healing power that monks were once capable of with LoD.

Currently heal party and healer's boon is hardly an option because of the retardness of interruption from nearly unstoppable rangers who have the ability to stand outside of the blockweb and maintain themselves with natural stride while pelting the enemy team with either crippling shot + disruption or magebane shot. Notice in most GvG's how extened rangers are outside of the friendly ward? Almost 90% of the time theres an enemy ranger camped out in the enemies midline spamming skills if both teams are caught in a deadlock and no split is involved.

Because of that classes ability to evade so efficiently with natural stride, the cripshot ranger, along with the interruption from the mesmer, have become the two staple classes that have the ability to break the deadlock between two teams.

The result is a metagame that is heavily slanted towards the performance of a select few characters, while the rest of the team spams passive defense and prays the ward gets diversioned or dshotted so that their warriors can see something other than "block block block block block" on their screen.

Other teams have turned towards the SoR paragon as a means of covering the partywide healing due to the inability of the monks to covered so much spread damage. The result of the SoR paragon into the meta has resulted into a powershift into teams that carry heavy snares and ganks for splitting and reducing the mobility of a team with an SoR so that they become forced to either give up the flag stand or let their base get ganked and get pwnt at VoD.

The above example is shown through Mistral Edge's used of pious haste memsers and assassins in order to effectively outflank and gank the enemy team's npcs while allow them to do nothing about it due to the lack of mobility from relying on either wards or a SoR paragon.

In the currenty meta it's common to see a Ward of Melee on either a mesmer or ele, SoR paragon or DA paragon with shout covers to provide partywide support, and an aegis chain usually being run on both monks. Thats a alot of freaking blocking and it only takes ONE of those defensive line to go down in order to break a team because of how ridiculous melee damage is in the current meta in comparison to the monk's ability to outheal it on a partywide scale.

Because of this builds that apply large partywide pressure, such as the Sway gimmick, which uses a bile bomb, tainted flesh, barbs, and tons of physical damage to overpower an enemy team, are becoming so prevalent.

Really what it boils down to is that the stalemate games between opposing blockwebs results in a long drawn out and boring match. Most GvG's are now boiling down to the frontline warriors ramming their heads against steel walls of passive defense while waiting for the enemy flag runner to mess up or a crack in the blockweb to show up (I.E. "my ward got interrupted" is the last thing you usually hear on vent before someone gets pwnt). Between good teams, usually VoD is what decides the match and alot of teams now carry rodgort's invocation and splinter weapon to punish SoR and ward campers during the NPC face off. VoD has almost turned into "whoever brings more AoE wins" because both teams know damn well the monks are going to have hell dealing with partywide damage with their single target heals. VoD can now be said to be simply decided by what partywide pressure skills are brought and many teams build just for VoD, in hopes of smashing the enemy team with an overwhelming amount of area pressure once 18 minutes pop.

With the amount of area damage being held for VoD, sometimes it turns into a AoE coinflip where people constantly C-spacing NPCs and trying to milk as much damage out of splinter weapon or rodgort's as they can in order to crush the opposing team. Because with the damage buff at VoD, monks are no way in hell going to be able to outheal heavy area damage. This is why not bringing ancestor's rage, splinter weapon, and even rodgorts can completely throw the game at VoD for a team. In fact your would be absolutely insane not to bring splinter weapon for VoD, if you don't have it you might as well just /resignspike once VoD hits.

The only tangent stemming from this sort of play is a dedicated split, in which if the opposing team doesn't have a cripshot to deal with it outside of their blockway fortress, they find themselves screwed royally during a tug of war between their base and the flag stand. This meta makes dedicated split extremely powerful because with the earshot range of blockwebs and the inability to effectively heal a balanced team trying to divide during a split, ganking becomes so freaking easy. Sins can usually eat a balance split alive once they leave the safety of their warded fortress and continue to push into the base if there isn't a cripshot or dedicated snare to stop them so that the balanced team can regroup. In fact with the ability of a cripshot/magebane to survive outside of a ward and become unkillable with natural stride (which is pretty imba IMO, but not as stupidly broken as magebane), his ability to catch up and disrupt a flag runner solo, to gank NPCs, and to combat a split by snaring and possibly even killing the guild thief, it would be nuts not to run one.

Suddenly the team that brought 3 layers of defensive blocks to survive a pressure roll finds themselves royally screwed against a 5 man hold team with snares and a 3 man gank with the guild thief pushing their base. Now the weight of the game falls mainly on the ability of a cripshot ranger and a Rt/D metagame flag runner to stop the offensive split before they get into the base and crucify the bodyguard. The the forced seesaw between the balanced team to either hold the flagstand against a super-snare 5 man team build for defense and protect their base against a gank simply showcases the fact that dedicated splits completely take advantage of the currently reliance on earshot ranged blockwebs, and thus become incredibly powerful teams can just jerk the tail of a balanced team, hoping the balance team screws and either gives up morale or allows a gank that can throw the game.

Overall my 2cents on the meta is that this uprising of 500 block skills being intergrated into GvG for pressure survival is stagnating the the game. Partywide healing is at an all time suck, and teams that take advantage of that fact are pushing rating. It's even gotten to the point where desperate teams are putting protective was kaolai or life on a flag runner Rt/D because they simply have no other options as far as partywide healing goes.

The absence of partywide healing and the rise of blocks to fill the void is simply breeding stalemate games that don't allow either team to offensively push or take strategic action. It also forces teams that want to play strategically build for dedicated splits that put blockway teams in a catch 22 over the flagstand and base in the hopes that the split tactic will force the other team to screw up under the pressure.

GvG is currently rediculously defensive, become long and drawn out, and too reliant on passive skills such as wards, aegis chains, and earshot ranged protection. Players are stuck turtling and kiting in wards just hoping for a screw up on the enemy team just so they might be able to act once or twice in a 20 minute game. It's pretty rediculous IMO and leads to games with less emphasis on active play and more on putting up a rock wall at the flag stand and hoping the flood of damage doesn't pour down on you.

This is just my 2cents on the meta and some of the issues im seeing. I have reason to believe that with this current GvG weekend and the past HA weekend, ANET will likely have a skill balance go into effect very soon. I just thought I would throw this out here for discussion so that maybe with the next balance, more active play will be promoted and GvG can maybe get pulled out of this alacatraz lets hide under 1000 blockwebs nonsense. The reality that I see in it, is that with the current state of backline healing, there just isn't enough there to deal with a whole truckload of pressure against the party.

~Helmos

Kaon · Jan 12, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I say get a mesmer and ranger that don't actually suck at guild wars and your problems are solved.

Yes i stopped reading after the first word in the topic title.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 12, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Uhm, people pretty much stopped running blockway since LoD got nerfed.

Matches go to vod because every map has 9001 NPCs now and it's easy to turtle.

Vanquisher · Jan 12, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I say get a mesmer and ranger that don't actually suck at guild wars and your problems are solved.

Yes i stopped reading after the first word in the topic title.

Low ping + good server = being amazing at the game.

Div · Jan 12, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Low ping + good server = being amazing at the game.

Not having to play with 500 ping everytime facing euros while they get their average 150 ping would be nice...

yesitsrob · Jan 12, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

My average euro ping is 300, it's never over 200 - Most americans I play with have immensely better pings than I ever do...

Zabe · Jan 12, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Not having to play with 500 ping everytime facing euros while they get their average 150 ping would be nice...

This thing is laughable. Atleast in the guilds I have played when they face Asian teams they say that the match will be all "korea lag" or "japan lag", when, atleast in the interview from HaND, they state that they also have about 500 pings against euros. And same thing goes to american people imo. Ofcourse its highly dependant from the internet you got. My friend had 24 mb cable, and had steady 100 ping against japanese guild, when others had around 500 ping.

But yeah, the amount of block havent changed. Only thing that has changed is that you don't have defensive anthem, but aegises and wards are there still, and ofcourse, not to forgot mention that SoD got increased recharge. Only thing why people wipe at the moment is that there is huge lack of partyheals.

Sneaky Mcsneaksneak · Jan 12, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Uhm, people pretty much stopped running blockway since LoD got nerfed.

Go watch some gvgs. Aegis, ward, guardian, occasionally SoD, sometimes DA, all of those include 50% or higher block. Add in a Bsurge for good measure, maybe a secondary on a monk for extra defense, and hell I'd call that blockway.

Quote:

I say get a mesmer and ranger that don't actually suck at guild wars and your problems are solved.

Wait, I'm sorry, do top rated matches go to VoD or past? What? They do? Oh, snap. Anything that can stop a defensive web can also be countered? What a revelation!
If you don't think passive party defense has taken hold without an effective way to get through it, you need to get back in the game, and try playing against people with a skill level comparable to yours.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 12, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

This thing is laughable. Atleast in the guilds I have played when they face Asian teams they say that the match will be all "korea lag" or "japan lag", when, atleast in the interview from HaND, they state that they also have about 500 pings against euros. And same thing goes to american people imo. Ofcourse its highly dependant from the internet you got. My friend had 24 mb cable, and had steady 100 ping against japanese guild, when others had around 500 ping.

It also depends on which server the game happens to be hosted on.

Div · Jan 12, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

As for blockway, it really depends on how you define it. Americans think of a standard "euro balance" with paragon-ranger-mesmer as a form of blockway, whereas euros won't consider it that. Blockway certainly still exists, if you look at teams such as rawr or the old pG dual para build, it's still an example of a strong blockway under the new WoH meta.

To Mokone: I SEE YOU NINJA EDITED MY POST!!!

Re: stfu wash the dishes

Kaon · Jan 12, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneaky Mcsneaksneak

Go watch some gvgs. Aegis, ward, guardian, occasionally SoD, sometimes DA, all of those include 50% or higher block. Add in a Bsurge for good measure, maybe a secondary on a monk for extra defense, and hell I'd call that blockway.

Yet whenever a good team faced a decent or quite bad team the good team totally obliterates the opponent within minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneaky Mcsneaksneak

Wait, I'm sorry, do top rated matches go to VoD or past? What? They do? Oh, snap. Anything that can stop a defensive web can also be countered? What a revelation!

And whenever 2 good teams face each other it's usually a vodgame with deaths on both sides, sometimes one side slightly dominating the other. Matches between good guilds have - ALWAYS - gone to vod (go check playoffs or GWWC/GWFC) the way they go to vod only differs. At least these days its generally with deaths instead of 30minute wait. They go to vod simply because the teams know how to react on the opponent, and try different strategies when something goes wrong. The only times such matches often didn't go to vod was because the game was horribly imbalanced (read: SBRI, Thumpers, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneaky Mcsneaksneak

If you don't think passive party defense has taken hold without an effective way to get through it, you need to get back in the game, and try playing against people with a skill level comparable to yours.

What are you saying? I'm the one without knowledge of guild wars? I'm the bad player here? You're a joke. But I need to stop being a cocky bastard just because I'm in a better guild. My previous 2 statements say everything that has to be said, and those are FACTS, if you deny them you're even more stupid than i thought.

LEARN2PLAY

HolyHawk · Jan 12, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

I'm not sure how the high level gvg plays is right now, last time I checked, I was begging for someone to explode on observer, but the low level is full of teams with ward, aegis chain, sor paragons and bbots, all in the same team. Recently, my team packed a sod monk and a snaring warder for a stand defense, and added mobility in almost every other char, and we are managing to make things happen by spreading them, earning morales and with frequent colapses. However we did try a direct confront without this network of defenses, and we couldn't stand long, more defense was simply necessary.

As for skill balances, I now feel that hex eater vortex is far too strong. It should not punish casual hexing so hard as it may do with over-hexing. A strong nerf on dmg might be needed, wastrel's worry-like maybe, even less.

Also, I'm more inclined to offensive runners than a third healer; I feel that windborne speed could have a 1/2 cast buff, illusion of haste could last up to 17 seconds, since it's self, and maybe some buffs on wind prayers, to allow dervishes to play something else other than melandru and order spammers.

Divinus Stella · Jan 13, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Not having to play with 500 ping everytime facing euros while they get their average 150 ping would be nice...

I hope your joking.

Euros facing Americans = Playing on American servers
Euros facing Asians = Playing on Asian servers
Americans facing Asian = Playing on Asian servers

Europeans get nothing but lag against non European teams, always an orange ping in a GvG against Americans and 1k~ against Asians.

I remember someone from EW complaining about the lag they had to put up with against American and Asian teams back when there was a real ladder that lead to the championships, the only thing anet had to offer was "tough luck".

Riotgear · Jan 13, 2008, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

Also, I'm more inclined to offensive runners than a third healer; I feel that windborne speed could have a 1/2 cast buff, illusion of haste could last up to 17 seconds, since it's self, and maybe some buffs on wind prayers, to allow dervishes to play something else other than melandru and order spammers.

I'd kill to see hydro runners back right now.

neoflame · Jan 13, 2008, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'd kill to see hydro runners back right now.

Remove a Hex from target ally. If a Hex is removed in this way, foes near that ally take 30..102..120 damage. If that ally is still Hexed, foes near that ally lose one Enchantment.

HolyHawk · Jan 13, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Exactly, I'm playing icy shackles ele, more as a utility, not exclusive runner, and it's powerful, unless there's the vortex there. I can do absolutely nothing, or I'll be their 9th character. Doesn't make much sense that an entire attribute line gets owned by a single skill, especially water magic that has several utilities. And a little offtopic, It's so frustrating when you run towards an e/mo and it's just a monk in disguise, with freezing gust a perhaps gale as elementalists skills. Of course, because all that defense is still not enough... It's not as frustrating because they die even faster when ganked.

And to be honest, I don't think there will be a fix for blockway; I just wish it was less passive, and more reactive. It's boring to dedicate a character slot just to act as shutdown, and at times it feels like a mesmer or a ranger is forced into teams in order to beat those. And watching mirror blockway matches is just a torture, at least now.

Riotgear · Jan 13, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

Remove a Hex from target ally. If a Hex is removed in this way, foes near that ally take 30..102..120 damage. If that ally is still Hexed, foes near that ally lose one Enchantment.

Would be a nice step forward. It needs to be brought down to Shatter-level damage anyway.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 13, 2008, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Yet whenever a good team faced a decent or quite bad team the good team totally obliterates the opponent within minutes.

And whenever 2 good teams face each other it's usually a vodgame with deaths on both sides, sometimes one side slightly dominating the other. Matches between good guilds have - ALWAYS - gone to vod (go check playoffs or GWWC/GWFC) the way they go to vod only differs. At least these days its generally with deaths instead of 30minute wait. They go to vod simply because the teams know how to react on the opponent, and try different strategies when something goes wrong. The only times such matches often didn't go to vod was because the game was horribly imbalanced (read: SBRI, Thumpers, etc).

What are you saying? I'm the one without knowledge of guild wars? I'm the bad player here? You're a joke. My previous 2 statements say everything that has to be said, and those are FACTS, if you deny them you're even more stupid than i thought.

LEARN2PLAY

Kaon is obviously good at Guild Wars.

People need to go back to having guardian and bflash as their only defence ~_-

HolyHawk · Jan 13, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Would be a nice step forward. It needs to be brought down to Shatter-level damage anyway.

Wouldn't the way around be better? I mean, trigger dmg for heavy hexing and remove enchantment for casual? Just a thought.

pah01 · Jan 13, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Kaon is obviously good at Guild Wars.

People need to go back to having guardian and bflash as their only defence ~_-

And then what?

As far as I remember teams went from three monk backlines to two booners and an EP ele, with bflash on a flagstand ele. Wards were also common too, I know last pride had a ward on their flagstand team for a long time.

Aegis was common on the flagger too when it wasnt earshot range. Especially around the release of factions till a long while into nightfall this was true.

Joe