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Dec 03, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31
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#21 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Profession: N/
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HA is full of lamebuild pugs, like usual, only now, the rank 3+++ people started using lamebuilds to just farm fame.
i for one just want to play HA for fun, quite hard with those lamebuilds out there. |
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Dec 03, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32
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#22 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Profession: N/
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and those whining around about timers play at nubhour, at 20:00 i nearly always join straight away.
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Dec 03, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02
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#23 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Ive delayed posting in this thread until i could think of my own view of what the main thing wrong with HA is. And right now i believe it is the following...
*Maintaining a competitive environment that supports casual players more than anyone else* Why do i say this? Because i compare the health and reputation that GvG has with HA... and i think there is a clear reason why high level competition thrives and drives GvG and why low level competition thrives and tries to drive HA and ultimately fails. In the 2 year long history of HA, skill balances have been way too slow to get rid of the horribly degenerate builds like iway/spirit spam/rit spike. Builds like these thrive in the HA environment because of the focused objectives that encourage 8vs8 encounters. Degenerate builds take a long while to seep into the GvG meta, because it is harder for these builds to compete at the level high enough to get into the top 100... in HA there is no such barrier. In HA the aim is to farm fame and win HoH, unfortunately the number of good teams participating in HA gradually declined as more and more players got tired of Anets inability to balance properly. With few good guilds and teams in HA, the door was left open for degenerate builds to dominate... which only helped to cement the status quo and drive the remaining good players away. This is how low level competition has been allowed to thrive in HA... at the expense of high level competition. Low level competitors tend to be part of the more casual crowd (most but not all) and therefore do not have the time/patience/desire to commit to achieving high standards of play that might allow them to compete at higher levels... at low level play farming titles and holding HoH with some holding build is the desired objective... being individually good at the game is not. Fortunately for the low level competitors they have had access to a continual supply of degenerate gimmicks with which to achieve their limited goals... iway being the most infamous of builds that caused the reputation of Tombs/HA players as being mindless scrubs. The presence of high level competitors in HA has always been dependant on the patience of the players... how long can anyone stand competing in environment where they face opponents running builds that never change, that follow the same patterns, that require little to no thought... against opponents who run degenerate gimmick builds because it allows them to farm fame off inexperienced players? After two years... its pretty safe to say that there arent many old players left... because their patience just ran out... you can only fight in HA for so long against the same faceless buttonmashers or 321 spikers... high level competitors need a great deal more competition than than. Which is what you get in GvG. Some might say that theres nothing wrong with HA being the arena for degenerate mindless builds... that maybe GW needs an arena which caters for the more casual crowd who just want to buttonmash and farm fame for emotes and titles. That is a valid sentiment, and i understand the need to cater towards the casual crowd... However, you must realise the consequences of catering to this crowd at the deterioration of the high level competition. Without high level competition, like in GvG, a blackhole forms. The blackhole occurs at the same point that casual players place their aims at. EG... many casual players just want to get the tiger emote... they will run any build they can, no matter what build it is, as long as it gets them fame efficiently. Once they get their tiger emote at rank 9 they leave HA and move on to farming another title... whether it be PvP or PvE... The new Hall of Monuments only made this situation worse... because acheiving a series of high level titles will reward players when they play GW2. So i am pretty confident that we have many PvErs coming to HA purely to farm the rank 9 title for that reason alone... which totally defeats the purpose of the rank system in a PvP arena. The same could be said for rank 12... the number of players who keep playing HA regularly once reaching rank 12 is tiny... rank 13 even less and to be honest there are probably only 1 or 2 players who HA regularly who are ranked 13-14. The problem with this, is that there is no incentive for players to remain regular HAers once they have achieved their title aims.. whether it be rank 6, rank 9 or 12 etc etc. And because of the horrible skill balancing thats plagued the game for 2 years... most players would just run the latest degenerate build to reach their title as fast as possible. The amount of players who earn their rank playing more involving builds is insignificant in terms of their influence on the HA meta, especially since all they ever get to fight is the people running degenerate boring builds over and over again. What explains GvGs lasting appeal? (even though the GvG community has been in natural decline over the years) The fact that reaching no1 spot and a gold cape is not something every guild can achieve... you truly must be one of the best guilds competing in GvG to be in for a chance of achieving them. So even though people are farming champ titles in various smurf guilds... the champ title pales in significance compared to maintaining no1 spot on the ladder and getting a gold cape. People will dedicate far more time and effort into achieving these objectives and in order to do so they must generally become extremely good at the game... and that means not running mindless buttonmashing builds that rely on 8vs8 encounters. There you have... my explanation of the reason why high level competition in HA does no exist and why it does in GvG... and why the health of high level competition is important for the health of a PvP arena in general. HA died as a serious competitive arena because its high level competition died. And if people do like it as a low level competition arena they must accept the consequences of it being as such... its simply a title farming arena that is destined to become stale and unpopulated once chunks of its playerbase reach their quite easily obtained goals of ranks 6/9/12. Right now HA is feeling the detrimental effects of a ever decreasing influx of new players... and an ever increasing amount of players finally obtaining their rank goals who then stop playing. No influx of new players + current players leaving = dead arena. |
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Dec 03, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08
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#24 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Profession: Mo/
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lol vel i was there that night with the "train" running around id1 for like an hour
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Dec 03, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13
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#25 | |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
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Dec 03, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42
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#26 | ||
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2007
Guild: Boku Wa Kawaii Neko Desu [MS13]
Profession: W/E
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Quote:
/fail On a latter note, some incentives for guilds that hold halls constantly (apart from the obvious fame and chest drops) might do the trick. Just what that incentive is and how it would be played out, I don't know.  Quote:
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Dec 03, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47
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#27 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2006
Profession: W/
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Quote:
Your example of GvG is absolutely wrong. Give me a count of good GvG players who are "in part of the high level competition". If guilds like SoG and such come into your number calculation, I have nothing to say, but, if we are talking about guilds who are worth noting, its just a handful of players. For calculation sake, lets assume there are 100 great high level guilds who still play. Assuming a core of 12 - 16, we are talking about 1200 - 1600 players. Now, they generated a onetime revenue of $190(campaigns and GWEN $50x3+$40x1)*1200= $228K to $304K. If Jeff Strain decides to make a game that caters to this crowd, not only he should be fired from his job but, also should be labeled as such that no other company in the industry will hire him for anything other than probable janitorial services, if that. I can draw the similar calculations for HA and prove the same point. However, it will be unnecessary. The sole reason HA died is because of people just got bored with the arena and the game. They got what they were looking for and moved on for the next adrenaline rush. It is the nature of the beast. The titles are just there to keep people engaged. And how far you will go in your quest to earn titles depend on your age, responsibilities, environment you are in and social surroundings. So, if the game does not attract your average new players regularly, it eventually will die and community will dry up. This is what has happened to GW and the effect is seen in HA. - Vel |
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Dec 03, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59
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#28 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I mostly agree with OP but I think it's kinda too late for Guild Wars. I wish I was wrong tho...
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Dec 03, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04
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#29 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Quote:
Get over it. The vast majority of the experienced community has quit just because you can't expect people to keep playing the same thing for 2 years. The top-level HAers have all either quit or moved on the GvG (and then quit). The amount of teams is smaller because everyone has quit and the game is old, there's nothing more that's new or fresh about it. New gamers are going to newer games rather than continuing to come to GW, and people are quitting. Get over, the game is dying. Just wait for GW2 or find something else to do. |
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Dec 03, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28
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#30 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Oct 2006
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
Almost everybody I know didn't quit Guild Wars because it was old. They quit because it was poorly managed by Anet and took a ridiculous amount of preparation time to properly play. |
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Dec 03, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29
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#31 |
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: England
Guild: Leteci is [sexy]
Profession: Mo/
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There was problems with HA while the game was active, just because the game is old it does not hide the fact that there are problems in the arena.
I personally don't deem the lack of populations a problem; however, I do deem it a problem when I win halls a few times and there's always a gank. |
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Dec 03, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33
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#32 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: :D:D
Profession: D/W
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they should make new ways of gaining fame, so that HA balances out
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Dec 04, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53
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#33 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Profession: W/E
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Quote:
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Dec 04, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10
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#34 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Not just HA is bleeding. Every PvP section is bleeding from the loss of Players. Watch the ladder how much guilds are active.
Their is a diffrence in Europe and American play times. At American play times their is nothing going on. On Europe play times their is more activity. Last edited by Deaths; Dec 04, 2007 at 07:13 AM // 07:13.. |
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Dec 04, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39
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#35 | |
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has 3 pips of HP regen.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Guild: The Objective Is More [Cash]
Profession: W/
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Quote:
The failure to satisfy casual players has been accomplished more by inaction: The jump from AB/RA/FA to HA/GvG is huge, and has only been growing. There has been absolutely nothing to break people in to more-advanced forms of play, which is why the whole "rank discrimination" whining thing exists in the first place. HA died for a number of reasons: The game's getting old. Most of the changes have been poorly-received ever since the original change to 6v6. A poorly-received change in any game invariably drives off some of the player base permanently. Gimmicks have become powerful enough to drive even deeper down the map list and have been slow to fix. PvP in general has been bleeding players for the same reasons. Most people have not been happy with power creep disaster that was and still is Nightfall. HvH is useless. TA is unsupported. AB is wasted potential. RA is RA. Everything else is too hard for casual players to get in to, and if people can't move up, they move out. Veterans are always going to bleed out for the same reason, but new players are the lifeblood of any game. At this point, it's too late to fix anything. The game is too old, too difficult to learn, and too EXPENSIVE for new players, and the old players aren't coming back. Last edited by Riotgear; Dec 04, 2007 at 09:46 AM // 09:46.. |
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Dec 04, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45
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#36 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cambridge / Oxford
Profession: Mo/Me
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i dissagree, the way to get into the pvp part of the game is though firstly well mastering pve im my opion try every class where its not so important well it is important but youhavent got 7 other team mates to worrie about, if your used to your roles from pve it backs up your knowlegde for pvp this is not saying everyone should jump to pvp, im just saying if you really wanna get stuck in get to know ever class / skill combonation first, twas the way back with proph and it was leet back then anyhow ciao for now
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Dec 04, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21
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#37 | |
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The Fallen One
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Oblivion
Guild: Irrelevant
Profession: Mo/Me
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Quote:
It is a sad reality, but it is reality nevertheless.  Hopefully GW2 has a more dynamic form of the HA we have grown to love, and then hate/not care for anymore. |
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Dec 04, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45
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#38 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Guild: Lack of Talent [Luck]
Profession: P/
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The biggest problem by far is lack of players, you cannot make any change to mechanics for such a tiny community. If the playerbase (tombs player base) were to suddenly triple, I can almost promise that within a few weeks, the meta would start to shift on its own, people would want to develop builds to beat the new gimmicks that start appearing that were developed to beat the last gimmick and so on and so forth. With the small playerbase you have now, there is no incentive to change builds if your build is only cockblocked by 1 other build thats hardly run. But lets say
15% plays gimmick one 50% plays gimmick two 30% plays gimmick three 5% plays their own guild build where gimmick two and three are even in a matchup, gimmick one owns gimmick two, and is even with gimmick three or whatever you want, the point is that the gimmick builds are buildwars, and the guilds get stuck in the middle with small counters to all the gimmicks. Now we have a small sample size of teams, but, triple the sample size, and all of a sudden gimmick one is looking as a very popular option because half of this huge playerbase is playing gimmick two. So people start to shift to gimmick one, and gimmick two is forgotten. Then some new build is developed (yay non stale meta) and this cycle repeats itself every few weeks. This USED to be the case back in proph days, where iway was one of the gimmicks, and several gimmicks started poping up as well. Bloodspike came after iway (it was around before but it wasnt overly popular first like iway was), anyway, random gimmicks begain to emerge that crushed iway, and severly shutdown bloodspike, NR/Tranq comming to mind after early factions. Hexes before that in proph days only to crush iway (dual migraines) and so on. In anycase, iway stayed the same because about 50% of players used it, (which is odd considerign how hard iway got owned by some gimmicks that started to be fairly popular, but iway groups still got enough fame to be playable considering how huge the playerbase was) however the other gimmicks continued to change and evolve which was fun and how the meta should be. Yes some builds still stayed at the top such as NR/Tranq in factions era. blah blah blah stuff If you want to fix HA, there needs to be incentive to play HA, both for the upper tier players and the newer players. IMO, the newer players want fame, but the upper players already have that, and cba to grind for r15. If you want upper players to even consider getting back into Tombs, there needs to be GvG scale rewards, such as a ladder system in HA, otherwise HA will continue to dwindle in population as these top players quit and move on to a format where they can seek recognition (gvg) |
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Dec 04, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12
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#39 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: England
Guild: Leteci is [sexy]
Profession: Mo/
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I really find king of the hill exciting, I think it's a shame that the end battle in HA isn't just king of the hill, and nothing else.
I think that with so many objectives, you have to adapt your build too much which limits versatility in the build. There are lots of skills but when you know you have to have certain types of skills somewhere in the build it is a huge limitation of what you can make. Of course you have to have certain things in GVG but it doesn't limit the versatility of a build so much. Having to bring song (generally) is just a wreck to a secondary. This skill should just be changed. Buff it, then disable it on the ghostly. More people would help; however, I remember when IWAY was everywhere and there was a limit of builds. It's hard to change peoples ignorance, stupidity or lack of drive. Not meaning to sound offensive (by all means edit the post if so). I do think that in any competitive format, running, swimming, FPS games, guild wars - the biggest separation between good and bad is a drive. If people had the drive to improve. If people had the drive to play balance and lose a few times (but later improve). If people had the drive to make their own builds. It's all ifs and it's all a load of ifs that are missing. Also GENERALLY I would say that people winning halls get enough faction. They don't need these damn flames of balthazar. Wtf. No one buys them anyway, there isn't a decent auction to sell them. They just go straight in my bin. In every group I've been in, I've heard someone whine about it. I'm not alone on this. Flames of balthazar after you just won a match is NOT COOL. I used to think 'yay, wonder what I'm going to get in the chest'. At present if I don't get a flame of balthazar I think I'm going to have a heart attack from sheer shock of it anyway. Please remove these damn things. Have them as a reward from winning five or ten RA matches. Not HA. Sigils are near worthless too. Make the chest give decent rewards. If it is going to give an ugly weapon, at least have the game such that it gives you perfect mods. Don't get me wrong, if I got a sigil for every flame of balthazar I would be happier. Some things I recently got: Ancient axe. 19% (not even 20 ffs) chance of higher axe mastery. Highly salvageable. Now you may think highly salvageable is bad. Actually it's pretty damn good, because if you aren't getting a flame of balthazar or a worthless sigil you are getting a weapon which needs salvaging anyway. I say you, maybe it's just me with this rotten luck. Break hammer: 14%^50 29+ HP. Would an extra point of been so hard? Rune of superior energy storage. This is great. I think I am going to crash GW's economy with such an expensive item. Need not put any more of the worthless things I get, but this is just a demonstration. I don't know about a ladder it might be cool or even give special trimmed capes (or patterns to a cape) for people that won the halls the most in a week. I don't think trims would be that good and might cause too much conflict but at least have something new. I am tired of bad HoH drops. Make it something personal too that can go on a player even if he pugs a lot. Quote:
Last edited by elektra_lucia; Dec 04, 2007 at 07:55 PM // 19:55.. |
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Dec 05, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48
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#40 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2007
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There is this idiotic assumption that 6 districts(HA used to have 9) worth of players who left the game were all good players who cared so much about the delicate balance of the game that nightfalls made them quite. What HA was you playing?
I say it again, gimmicks don't destroy HA, quite the opposite. Gimmicks make HA playable. No gimmicks, no pugs, no HA. Let me say it again, "no pugs no HA". Let me say it a little louder, "NO PUGS NO HA". Even if you wanted to argue that HA can survive without pugs, check the amount of players in American District 1. then go to ID district. Then start visiting the euro servers. Check how many groups are being formed in party chat then count the districts. Only time gimmicks are a problem is when they hold halls consistently, and they don't. And never will. The abundance of gimmicks have never prevented guild teams running balance builds from holding halls for hours at a time before and it still doesn't now. Limiting the amount of builds will give players less incentive to play not more. Spend 1 hour forming a balance or join a randomway? What a great game people will think that is. I can see people talking about Guild Wars right now "Hey man, guess what there is this game called Guild Wars and you know what the only teams you can join don't even make it past the NPC's!". Concerning the gap between, HA/GVG and RA/AB/HB has been already filled. Its called TA. Its were I learned to download vent, call tactics, and best of all RUN CERTAIN BUILDS ON REQUEST. Something RA/AB/HB players don't understand. The one thing i blame anet for is letting TA die. You want to see the quality of guild wars pvp drop as a whole, watch TA go down the tubes. They should have never made AB or if they really wanted to add the arena leave it in PVE were it belongs along with RA. Last edited by wuzzman; Dec 05, 2007 at 12:53 AM // 00:53.. |
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