Curse

Epinephrine · Jan 25, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

We play GVG for the joy of fighting other players. The insane buff to the NPCS at VOD changed winning to a PVE fight. This is not a step in the right direction. NPCS should play a part, but now they are what matters in VOD and not the human players. This should be changed.
Also, as to splinter, I think that having my ele go /rt to provide AOE skill is wrong. Splinter should be changed as well.

At the same time, making NPC a powerful element allows for split strategies, a nice bit of flexibility in terms of builds in the metagame. The overly weak NPCs meant that NPC advantage was not meaningful. It seems a difficult balance, and I'm not in the calibre of player that can accurately judge where it should be.

And yes, fixing the AI to not shoot into obstructions would be good for both PvP (in VoD) and PvE (though not for farmers who wall farm).

wally · Jan 25, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I've been thinking about VoD NPC pathing a bit. Would it at all be viable to have the npcs have a sequence of spots that they hit at certain times?

For the sake of example:

at 18:30 the NPCs dash to a series of points between the base and the flagstand and then stay there (attacking) until

19:00 the NPCs dash to another series of points (closer to the flagstand) and stay there "on guard"

and so on and so forth until they hit their marks at the flagstand.

Currently, I think the issue is that the AI is sufficiently unstructured that one can't do anything to counter an opposing team drawing aggro and clumping up NPCs. The only counter is to do the same with the opposing party's NPCs, etc.

Giving NPCs sequential destinations doesn't the solve the problem of NPC AI exploitation per se, but it might at least give teams other layers of countering.

For instance, if a team wants to wipe out NPCs by Deep Freezing them en route to VoD point #1 (when this is the only time the NPCs would really be bunched up) and then Splintering them, the opposing team can counter the problem directly (fast hex removal, etc) because the NPCs will not be clumped indefinitely, which I think is part of the problem currently.

I'm not sure what the time increments or the distances that the NPCs dash should be, but I think it's crucial to somehow structure it that NPCs cannot be balled up indefinitely without some mechanism that can be employed to *unball* them.

To analogize, the current balling up of NPCs is kind of closing a door. Except teams aren't given tools to re-open a door that's closed or even adequately prevent it from being shut in the first place. The only thing that they can do is shut the other person's door, which I don't think is a sufficiently nuanced mechanic for what VoD should be -- a sort of higher-stakes point in a match.

Not having played in quite some time, I have no idea if this makes sense -- but it's just an idea. Any possible merits?

Alternatively, is there any possibility to piggyback off the PvE AI that discourages solo farming? I'm thinking of mobs where only 3 monsters at a time will attack a single target. The others will withdraw (and could conceivably pick another target).

Obviously this would need some tweaks so npcs don't go running off into never neverland to find a target, but there might be something there which discourages (or repositions) the npcs if there are more than 3 in an area of predetermined size (like adjacent, nearby, etc).

assassin of the god · Jan 25, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I' glad to see that Andrew realized that the whole "healing through splinter weapon" was a pretty bad argument. After that, the new, more deadly NPCs are a slight improvement and may or may not encourage splitting. That being said, splinter weapon is a great skill pre-vod and helps counter blockway, and is good for punishing people for balling up in wards or bad positioning, and the ideal option would be to make npcs not ball up, but AI is something that has been beaten to death and as I understand its not going to get better. Imo, the best way to encourage splitting would be, killing splinters and ancestors(too easy to spike with), buffing the rits healing and party healing abilities, specifically PwK(maybe a 10,12, or 15 recharge, and a slightly bigger heal) and WoW(rebuff duration), and maybe Warmonger's(i would say a longer duration but all the TA people would cry) in order to keep the ritualist playable as the ideal flagger/ split healer class. This should make a balanced war/ranger/rit split more rewarding and playable.

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 25, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

I kinda of like the suggested idea of changing one of the inner archers to a paragon that has the following skills. Shields up, Stand your ground and unblockable throw. He would follow with the 2nd wave of Npc's. Gives another objective to kill and would reduce the effectiveness of balling up NPC's.

Of course i'm also an advocate of the following skills changes with this change.

Shields up- +24 armor, 50% chance to block incoming piercing damage projectiles. Same duration.

Splinter weapon- lightning damage

~~just an idea~~

Akaraxle · Jan 25, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

[21:20] <@Polly> ok lets take a look at how we would turn searing flame into splinter weapon
[21:20] <@Polly> first, lets triple the range of it so that we can cast it without having to be in range of itnerupts, then secondly 15 energy, hah 5 is more than enough for that, lets get rid of the burning too easier if it just deals damage straight up, oh and of course there isn't any reason for it to be elite, guess we can make the recharge 5 seconds so its balanced
[21:21] <@Polly> did I forget anything?

Quoting 'cause it was pretty funny.

Ego · Jan 25, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

What is your guys' opinions on the NPC change? Did it make things better, worse, or not really change anything?

Hypothetically, if Splinter Weapon is dealt with and your NPC's are able to stay up longer, do you feel the damage increase is a good thing or a bad thing? Obviously it is irrelevant if they die before the bonus takes effect heh.

Are there additional changes you would suggest? Please keep in mind changing their pathing and AI has complications involved, but if you have additional ideas on how to improve their role in GvG (someone suggested Elemental protection at one point) please share them.

It does too much damage really. Unblockable and now +30% damage (Like +50% when NPC's arrive.) is just retarded.

No comment on the other stuff really.

diabiosx · Jan 25, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Splinter Weapon is not broken. What is broken is the balling of NPCs. Andrew and Izzy get this through your heads and repeat 10x: "Splinter is not broken, balling NPCs are."

In Player V Player, a player knows how to spread out so splinter does not hit any1 else, it tells players that positioning is important.
Remember GvG is Player V player not Player V NPC.

Kaon · Jan 25, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

I asked Izzy about the NPC's AI, and he said that, when instructed to split up, they tend to neglect that whole attacking thing. So it was a matter of NPCs that attack from a close ball, or NPCs that take their sweet time getting into position that usually die before they actually start attacking.

It's not something that isn't being considered, nor is it something that hasn't been tried. I imagine if the changes to Splinter Weapon prove ineffective, alternatives will be explored and NPC AI may be looked at again.

If they'd stay up i'd consider superincreased damage bad. For reasons i mentioned in my 3 posts earlier. There's no reason why their damage should increase to start with.

langola · Jan 25, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Please keep in mind changing their pathing and AI has complications involved, but if you have additional ideas on how to improve their role in GvG (someone suggested Elemental protection at one point) please share them.

Giving them elem protection is a bad idea. It would prevent an entire class from doing damage to them, including before vod.

Riotgear · Jan 25, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I do kind of like the mentality that the NPCs should become more dangerous during VOD to encourage squishing them before, however, their lack of damage threat is not the problem, the fact that they get mowed down is. Right now, NPCs need resilience at VOD a lot more than they need a damage boost.

Quote:

Giving them elem protection is a bad idea. It would prevent Mind Blast eles from doing damage to them, including before vod.

Fixed?

So make it just during VOD? Or better yet, just lower the NPC count since it'll become less practical to just farm them with Splinter/Ancestor's?

Sinful Doom · Jan 25, 2008, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by langola

Giving them elem protection is a bad idea. It would prevent an entire class from doing damage to them, including before vod.

Would you feel the same if you didnt run a E/D that often splits to solo bases?

erk · Jan 26, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Mystic Regeneration increase recharge from 5sec to 20sec to match it's duration. It's too spamable.

Sinful Doom · Jan 26, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Mystic Regeneration increase recharge from 5sec to 20sec to match it's duration. It's too spamable.

Agreed.

12345678

langola · Jan 26, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

Would you feel the same if you didnt run a E/D that often splits to solo bases?

The point is it nerfs an entire class, which I do not see as a good thing.

Besides the real problem will continue to be the pathetic AI which i hope improves in gw2.

erk · Jan 26, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Perhaps replacing some of the Archer NPC with another class, or at the very least more knights less archers as the knights seem to move ok.

The Meth · Jan 26, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

From another thread it was mentioned that the npcs + damage buffs also affect the damage that they deal from splinter weapon / ancestors. This effect has been present in the rest of the game but now its really bad in GvG. Basically if splinter or ancestors rage wasn't bad enough, cast it on an npc and its 30% + 10% per minute worse. If that can't be changed we got a big problem with the current gameplay.

Sinful Doom · Jan 26, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by langola

The point is it nerfs an entire class, which I do not see as a good thing.

Besides the real problem will continue to be the pathetic AI which i hope improves in gw2.

I highly doubt you will see major NPC AI improvements but we can always keep our fingers crossed. Until then if giving the ranger NPC's elemental armor is for the overall good I would have to say sorry to the elemental class. Besides wont it be just hurting one attribute, fire?

Seef II · Jan 26, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Would it be more prudent to have the archers at 80 flat (their current level, IIRC), or 70+30 elem? 'Cuz if splinter doesn't get touched to lightning damage, they're going to drop even easier to physicals.

Nothing rules out 80+20 elem though...

langola · Jan 26, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

I highly doubt you will see major NPC AI improvements but we can always keep our fingers crossed. Until then if giving the ranger NPC's elemental armor is for the overall good I would have to say sorry to the elemental class. Besides wont it be just hurting one attribute, fire?

No, giving archers elemental armor affects all forms: cold,fire,earth,air (like ranger armor), and not just elementalists either.

Riotgear · Jan 26, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by langola

No, giving archers elemental armor affects all forms: cold,fire,earth,air (like ranger armor), and not just elementalists either.

Who else does it affect? Death necros? Conjure?

It affects Melandru, but Melandru is more of the AOE this would be targetting.

B-surgers and hydros are not known for their NPC killing capacity. Earth is not known for its anything-killing capability outside of obflame.