Curse

Kaon · Jan 28, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

You aren't limited to rit runners atm, you just have to bring the splinter in midline somewhere, and that brings us to new problem, because splinter is the must have skill thesedays.

But yes, I agree to partyhealing packs you atleast on 1 character. In the most used build, on two.

Not running a partygon is in most situation a synonyme for "bad build."

red orc · Jan 28, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

You ARE limited to rit runners, as you have to run a partygon to have sufficient party healing so either you run a rit runner or you don't have splinter weapon.

Bsurge + splinter at the stand and a hp runner is also an option but it's strictly worse.

We run Bsurge+splinter at the stand and water e/mo with elite WOH and heal party to clean party wide damage. And we're able to face all those parashit builds at our end of the spectrum.
We split beter during the game and we can stand our ground and outdamage/outheal them at VOD.

Ensign · Jan 28, 2008, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Bsurge + splinter at the stand and a hp runner is also an option but it's strictly worse.

Isn't Monk Runner + BSurge / Splinter + Partygon twice as lame and thus twice as good though?

Darksbane · Jan 28, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

I think mitchs point here is that what works at whatever level you are at isnt going to work when you actually face good teams. I play runner extensively with top 20 experience doing so and i find the water ele runner far inferior to others. I think you can see this by looking how many people run it. The lack of prot on the bar means you are just going to blow up. The partygon does much more healing and much more damage mitigation and is still there to heal at the stand when the runner has to split and wont necessarily be there to heal. Also i dislike running heal party on a runner because it significantly slows your run times if you have to keep stopping to HP.

The point is that you are basing your argument on your experience (which i dont know but like others assume is limited) when talking about problems in top tier gvg.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 28, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Isn't Monk Runner + BSurge / Splinter + Partygon twice as lame and thus twice as good though?

You'd imagine so, but when you really think about it it means you'd have to drop ice prison on the runner, which means that you can't send your conjure frost warrior back to kill snared characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksbane

The point is that you are basing your argument on your experience (which i dont know but like others assume is limited) when talking about problems in top tier gvg.

^What he wrote.

Akaraxle · Jan 28, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by deya

Okay so, people should just hit there heads on wall during 18 mins of 7v7 spikefest and then flip a coin in VoD-Rampage? Now that's plain stupid and doesn't get any respect from me tbh.

Sineptitude is not instawin build, you need to run it good if you want to beat your enemy. Splitting is now a lot harder than in past - recall nerf hurt a lot and tbh people just learned to play a lot better against splitting. [Me] totally deserved there victory, just shows that this ultimate-meta-blockway-vodrampage-boringashell-build can be beaten.

Guildwars must have more options than ONE which you can run and actually win.

Splitting with sins != other kinds of split, deya, and you know it.

While a non-sin split (such as a warrior+ranger+flagger trio, or any split performed by e.g. WM back in the days) involves performing certain "manouvers" around a map, sinsplits simply rely on sneaking off your NPCs one by one, taking advantage of those couple of seconds of lateness on the defenders' side and teleing away as soon as someone's there. You don't have to push or pull, switch characters with the main and the like: all you need to do is pick off one archer, run away, wait, rinse and repeat. You could call it a cowardly split, since you're not really engaging in a fight most of the time.

That said, all matches should be like RIP vs apr on Druid's. That was so random and kinda fun, though RIP's warriors were like "THEY HAVE WEAPONS EVERYWHERE!!1!1".

Andrew Patrick · Jan 28, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

We were all watching the monthly ATs, but I will also be including this thread on the Community Summary so the designers can read the feedback to the tournament outcome.

Shendaar · Jan 28, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I consider the assassins themselves to be fairly balanced(Although Shadowstepping is still a retarded mechanic). As others have said, the real problem with sineptidude are the mesmers and their anti-melee shutdown crap. The problem is that it does tons of damage and it is pretty much impossible to shutdown/remove reliably.

Kaon · Jan 28, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

If you nerf paragons so i can finally play something else than the most boring thing in guild wars im so happy. Never before have i been bored by a role in gvg. I've played about every role in guild wars, some for many months in a row and I never got really bored at a role.

I now play paragon for 3 weeks and it makes me want to vomit and quit guild wars. It's not just the role though, it's just that the metagame is so linear I feel I have no impact on what's happening AT ALL.

Yue · Jan 28, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

If you nerf paragons so i can finally play something else than the most boring thing in guild wars im so happy. Never before have i been bored by a role in gvg. I've played about every role in guild wars, some for many months in a row and I never got really bored at a role.

I now play paragon for 3 weeks and it makes me want to vomit and quit guild wars. It's not just the role though, it's just that the metagame is so linear I feel I have no impact on what's happening AT ALL.

Or you could get better at another class.

jayce · Jan 29, 2008, 12:03 AM // 00:03

[Me] has been running a variation of that build for what, months now? at least longer than 3 that i can remember. nothing really new, just no one bothered to care until they finally won a monthly. they even outplayed another team with a similar build as theirs. some people may have mentioned something about clumsiness before and ended up getting it nerfed, but the build in general never received as much air-time in discussions as its getting right now.

Jayce Of Underworld

Kaon · Jan 29, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Or you could get better at another class.

I can play any class in the game except mesmer.

My guildies need to better at another class so we can swap.

Farin · Jan 29, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

That was entirely your own fault. You can hardly say you didn't have the same tools available as [Me], and you certainly should have seen it coming.

Never said anything about Me so I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. Out of 12ish 5/2 teams 2 didn't make it, including us. I'm just saying the AT system isn't something I would call good. Maybe we should've spiked.

deya · Jan 29, 2008, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Splitting with sins != other kinds of split, deya, and you know it.

While a non-sin split (such as a warrior+ranger+flagger trio, or any split performed by e.g. WM back in the days) involves performing certain "manouvers" around a map, sinsplits simply rely on sneaking off your NPCs one by one, taking advantage of those couple of seconds of lateness on the defenders' side and teleing away as soon as someone's there. You don't have to push or pull, switch characters with the main and the like: all you need to do is pick off one archer, run away, wait, rinse and repeat. You could call it a cowardly split, since you're not really engaging in a fight most of the time.

That said, all matches should be like RIP vs apr on Druid's. That was so random and kinda fun, though RIP's warriors were like "THEY HAVE WEAPONS EVERYWHERE!!1!1".

You should now that I'm fairly experienced with splits and stuff. As I posted before people knows better how to play against split a lot better now than what they used to. RIP vs apr we totally RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up our build choise cause we weren't excepting a split build to face us and we had like zero snares which is kinda insta loss on druids (bad build it was anyways).

The style of splitting you're explaining is fairly useless now. If you want to make a difference with split you need something which can snare and unleash enough damage to take somethign out in matter of seconds. That's excatly what W+R+Flag team fails at. Warrior sure can unleash a lot of damage quickly if his build but you need skills like Rigor Mortis if you want to kill something. Shadow Prison Assassin is alone a lot more frightening than W+R together IMO. With healing/protting class you can normally survive long enough to make backups ,unless you face Rigor,Shadow Prison and some nasty assa chain of assa skills.

Assassins can also carry shadow step naturally, which can make the difference in getting kills.

IMO Assassins are stupid class for GvG, they're not much to use in 8on8 situation and fits only in splitting, however splitting is like only way to beat Blockway - so in the end it's good that there's assassins who can do the job. :P

Akaraxle · Jan 29, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by deya

You should now that I'm fairly experienced with splits and stuff. As I posted before people knows better how to play against split a lot better now than what they used to. RIP vs apr we totally RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up our build choise cause we weren't excepting a split build to face us and we had like zero snares which is kinda insta loss on druids (bad build it was anyways).

Well, it doesn't seem we disagree on anything here. While the top level of play in GW may be lower now, the average is much higher than in the past and people usually know how to deal with stuff better.
About RIP, we/they were totally expecting sinsplit (I ran weapon of shadow for the occasion)! It was a fun match despite the randomness, I'd have felt a little bit sad if that loss kicked you out of the top16.

Quote:

The style of splitting you're explaining is fairly useless now. If you want to make a difference with split you need something which can snare and unleash enough damage to take somethign out in matter of seconds. That's excatly what W+R+Flag team fails at. Warrior sure can unleash a lot of damage quickly if his build but you need skills like Rigor Mortis if you want to kill something. Shadow Prison Assassin is alone a lot more frightening than W+R together IMO. With healing/protting class you can normally survive long enough to make backups ,unless you face Rigor,Shadow Prison and some nasty assa chain of assa skills.

Well, SP assassin more frightening than a W+R depends on the flagger bar imo. Regardless, the reason you cite is exactly why you run something that has either a 100% or a 0% chance of sneaking a fast kill. There are certainly several reasons why we're at a point where normal splits don't work well anymore (18 minute VoD being a grave culprit IMHO), but the recent updates don't certainly look like a step towards bringing them back to me.

Quote:

Assassins can also carry shadow step naturally, which can make the difference in getting kills.

IMO Assassins are stupid class for GvG, they're not much to use in 8on8 situation and fits only in splitting, however splitting is like only way to beat Blockway - so in the end it's good that there's assassins who can do the job. :P

I don't know, really. I was debating about this with Tale [deya's guildmate, for the readers] earlier this morning.
In the end, it all comes down to whether you prefer spending long minutes trying to break the other player team's defense to finally crush them, or killing enemy PvE NPCs until VoD so your PvE archers have an easier time nuking their guild lord. It feels like the pressure play Izzy and americans in general wanted to promote has been nerfed once again.

deya · Jan 29, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Well, SP assassin more frightening than a W+R depends on the flagger bar imo. Regardless, the reason you cite is exactly why you run something that has either a 100% or a 0% chance of sneaking a fast kill. There are certainly several reasons why we're at a point where normal splits don't work well anymore (18 minute VoD being a grave culprit IMHO), but the recent updates don't certainly look like a step towards bringing them back to me.

Well ofcourse it depends on the flagger but most of flaggers are running atleast some defensive skills which slows W, R or even W+R enough so that backups can make it in time, on the otherhand Assassin can provide everything needed to get the kill. And I'm not talking about flagger only here, duo assassins can take 2 archers down in matter of seconds meanwhile W+R couldnt get one kill. Again Shadow Stepping plays big role in here 'cause it takes a lot of time to run the aggro bubble to be @ cast range to save the NPC. It is true that recent updates doesn't encourage splitting, atleast the oldschool splitstyle, but maybe it encourages puresplits, like assasplit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I don't know, really. I was debating about this with Tale [deya's guildmate, for the readers] earlier this morning.
In the end, it all comes down to whether you prefer spending long minutes trying to break the other player team's defense to finally crush them, or killing enemy PvE NPCs until VoD so your PvE archers have an easier time nuking their guild lord. It feels like the pressure play Izzy and americans in general wanted to promote has been nerfed once again.

I smell these recent updates will bring even more defense to builds that they could survive VoD, atleast a bit longer which doesn't sound too great to me. As long as Izzy doesn't nerf sinsplit, people will have to adapt somehow there playing style which could evolve a bit more builds than there has been for last X months, which on other hand could be a good thing.

Anarandil · Jan 30, 2008, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Not running a partygon is in most situation a synonyme for "bad build."

Which is why the guild who won the monthly didn't run a partygon.

PS: Euros are bad.

pah01 · Jan 30, 2008, 06:12 AM // 06:12

lol, As if the build they ran wasn't even more retardedly broken than a motigon.

Persh · Jan 30, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

there have been 5/3 splits before...people act like this is something new

Anarandil · Jan 30, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

lol, As if the build they ran wasn't even more retardedly broken than a motigon.

What does that have to do with the claim, "Any build without a motigon is bad." ?