Curse

Son Of The Axe · Jan 30, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

rawr has already won two or three monthly tournaments running their version of balanced. I doubt they care about proving their skill to people.
Are you really suprised that rawr lost to 2 Hex Breakers, 2 Cure Hexes and a Spotless Mind while running hexway?

no not surprised, just thought it was funny, gave me a good giggle.

And JR if you wanna post something other than a personal atk that works too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Originally Posted by Mokone
and HEV. (=

moo

Meh. I spent 30 seconds obsing that match then got bored

yea hexes are boring to watch.

rawr can run hexes if they want, but they are not the best guild in the game, and i'm all for build variation, but i would rather not see a MAT full of hexway and sineptitude.

I don't know i just thought i was funny that they would run a build that usually wipes team in under 3 minutes and then get outbuilded and outplayed by dR.

Not saying rawr is a crappy guild or i'm the best player in the game, and can call other guilds shit, but just saying that personally, I, thought it was a bad build choice and would've liked to see rawr playing the build they play best against dR. In order to see a better match up in terms of skill and strategy.

Lord Darksoul · Jan 30, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I don't see why a good guild like rawr would have to rely on something like that. Winning is important, but sheesh, it's so much better to do it in your own style, not run a gimpway.

BTW Ad Hominems attacks show that you're a pro game that knows what he's talking about.

DutchSmurf · Jan 30, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son Of The Axe

rawr can run hexes if they want, but they are not the best guild in the game, and i'm all for build variation, but i would rather not see a MAT full of hexway and sineptitude.

No matter what rawr runs, if people think hexway wins matches, people will run hexway. So what is the point of this whole thread actually? A guild tried a hexbuild, other guild saw it coming and countered it, other guild won. What is the point of discussing it any further?

ChopChop · Jan 30, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son Of The Axe

Not saying rawr is a crappy guild or i'm the best player in the game, and can call other guilds shit, but just saying that personally, I, thought it was a bad build choice and would've liked to see rawr playing the build they play best against dR. In order to see a better match up in terms of skill and strategy.

I don't really post much on forums and I don't think this post is going to achieve anything, but I figured that I might as well throw a bit of insight in the general direction of you guys if anyone cares.

dR have enjoyed quite a bit recent success against us running a build which is stripped of everything that makes a balanced build..well..balanced, in fact the build they under normal circumstances run against us have so little disruption and removal in it in favor of map control that they cannot even attempt to play 8v8 but must have everyone in the team play defensive and split right away when forced into an 8v8 situation.

This is in fact a very powerful strategy when it goes up against a team which normally brings skills for doing well vs. a variety of builds.
We did indeed plan to take advantage of this in the monthly tournament, but we ended up going into it unprepared and with almost no practice, missing a few our of regular players, so we bumped that plan back to the next time we would play them.

Due to some people guesting for us, and carelessness on our part (who cares its a game), they ended up knowing pretty much what we would play and after that well, if they want to bet the game on a full blown counter build and happen to hit it right, then thats ok, can't really do anything but smile at the outcome.

I view dR as an overall stronger guild than rawr, mainly due to being able to sustain a high level of activity with the same 8 people, and thriving in a somewhat stale American metagame. Much the same way we did it 6-7 months ago.
However I do not think they are beyond beating, in the end the outcome of any single game between us matters little, and if we can make them start bring less movement control and protection skills in expecting that we will not always run the same build, then the games between us will be more evenly matched.

Doji · Jan 30, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

dR have enjoyed quite a bit recent success against us running a build which is stripped of everything that makes a balanced build..well..balanced, in fact the build they under normal circumstances run against us have so little disruption and removal in it in favor of map control that they cannot even attempt to play 8v8 but must have everyone in the team play defensive and split right away when forced into an 8v8 situation.

There are the same number of strips and just as much disruption in our build that are in every other "balance build" being run, infact we have more disruption then most. How ever our build has neither enough party healing, or enough defense to fight 8v8 for prolonged periods of times thus the style thats been adopted with the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

This is in fact a very powerful strategy when it goes up against a team which normally brings skills for doing well vs. a variety of builds.

A variety of builds being what exactly? Other euro style balance builds? Its not a powerful strategy for people that bring skills for doing well vs."a variety of builds" Its a powerful strategy for going up agaisnt teams that have poor movement control, and overall poor split tactics.

Why would you even bother fighting 8v8 vs extremely defensive builds accompanied by extremely defensive play styles instead of exploiting the weaker areas?

ChopChop · Jan 30, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doji

There are the same number of strips and just as much disruption in our build that are in every other "balance build" being run, infact we have more disruption then most. How ever our build has neither enough party healing, or enough defense to fight 8v8 for prolonged periods of times thus the style thats been adopted with the build.

That is exactly what I said, also note that by removal I mean condition and hex removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doji

A variety of builds being what exactly? Other euro style balance builds? Its not a powerful strategy for people that bring skills for doing well vs."a variety of builds" Its a powerful strategy for going up agaisnt teams that have poor movement control

I intentionally left out the personal attack, but to keep on topic I believe this is exactly my point as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doji

Why would you even bother fighting 8v8 vs extremely defensive builds accompanied by extremely defensive play styles instead of exploiting the weaker areas?

I believe I said that it was a strong strategy in exactly this situation.

So thank you for repeating me, but lets keep it from being personal shall we?

Doji · Jan 30, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

How does me saying we have the exact same tools for "removals and disruption" equate to

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

so little disruption and removal in it in favor of map control

Also I don't see how bringing the tools for one particular build along side a linear style of play is the same thing as bringing tools to deal with "variety of builds" as you put it.

Your post just seemed one sided to me is all.

ChopChop · Jan 30, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doji

How does me saying we have the exact same tools for "removals and disruption" equate to

Also I don't see how bringing the tools for one particular build along side a linear style of play is the same thing as bringing tools to deal with "variety of builds" as you put it.

Your post just seemed one sided to me is all.

ok, so, since you are insisting on the long winded explanation I will attempt to will some kind of cognitive ability together and actually think my words through instead of going with the first thing that strikes my mind as being close enough to the meaning I was intending.

The mesmer build has to my understanding only 1 interrupt where 2 is the norm, this is in favor of skills such as glyph energy, gale, and blackout all to take advantage of heavy movement around the map.
Also in a shields up / aegis centered meta-game running a cripshot ranger over a magebane is indeed focusing on movement control over 8v8 power, yes the actual *number* of interrupts are the same but I hardly need to explain this one to anyone.

You yourself pointed out the lack of party wide healing in favor of self and single target healing obviously also focusing on creating skirmish match-up around the map and not full team encounters.

am I saying this is bad, or other such things?
No not at all, I pointed out the strength of that tactic vs. a somewhat stale American meta-game.

I guess I wasn't going for long and elaborate when I made my original post I was really just attempting to get the point across that the build doesn't have the kind of utility to deal with 8v8 scenarios that is normally brought by the so called 'balanced' builds.
Here again just using both the term utility and balanced loosely in favor of spending several pages of text elaborating, on the exact meaning of both terms, since it really does not matter much the end result is the same.

Everyone has their own view on how words are defined, what is fun and how the game should be played.
And I beleive I have a fairly long history of not really caring to much about what other people think, either about me or what I do.
I am generally not a person to speak out in public about anything, just because I don't think it has any value to me to do so, these posts kind of illustrate why, I was posted for the general interest of the (assuming) PvE favoring crowd here.
If you feel I misrepresented your guild in any way I would much appreciate if you would start out being specific rather than beating around the bush about it.

I do enjoy discussing things which interest me, but I when do so I general attempt to do it verbally simply because it is much easier to realize when your points are getting understood correctly.

So instead of trying to spend a long time thinking up the exact and precise way to define my meaning I just used the first thing that came to mind, simply because I do not think that a forum like this one has much value in it in the first place, and trying to be precise and absolute here, is much like trying to fist fighting a fire truck, not very productive and all you get out of it is sore fingers.

I still hold that my assessment is fairly objective, and on several occasions, as seen on observe mode over the last weeks time, also proven.

Div · Jan 30, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

The mesmer build has to my understanding only 1 interrupt where 2 is the norm, this is in favor of skills such as glyph energy, gale, and blackout all to take advantage of heavy movement around the map.
Also in a shields up / aegis centered meta-game running a cripshot ranger over a magebane is indeed focusing on movement control over 8v8 power, yes the actual *number* of interrupts are the same but I hardly need to explain this one to anyone.

I fully agree with the cripshot statement focusing on movement control rather than 8v8 power. However, I don't completely think the mesmer interrupt skills is completely accurate. If you look at most mesmers in the current defensive meta, they spend a good half of their interrupts on diversions, shames, and occasionally aegises. Since that's often the case, gale can be seen as just as effective (if not more since its recharge is lower) as power drain. In fact, gale is more effective against certain spike-oriented builds revolving around dervish avatars because it makes the mesmer capable of interrupting the form.

Regardless, the build that we designed matches the style we play. We play our best in builds where there is a lot of individual freedom in terms of deciding when and where to split, and that is why we have strong movement control characters such as the cripshot and strong splitters like the mind blast ele. We dislike banging our heads against wall for 18 minutes, and that is part of the reason why we chose to run a more split-oriented build in this meta. The build has the necessary shutdown tools to break down a team, but lacks the layers of passive defense and party healing. In the right circumstances where we don't need to engage for long, our build is still capable of taking down a team 8v8.

Quote:

is much like trying to fist fighting a fire truck, not very productive and all you get out of it is sore fingers.

That's a weird image :O

And I don't understand why people are trying to give rawr shit for running hexes. It was a good choice to make on their part, and we just got lucky with our hex removals.

langola · Jan 30, 2008, 03:52 AM // 03:52

There's no reason for us to get into an argument here.

1) there is no such thing as "balanced"
2)yah, we cannot fight extended 8v8 battles since we do not have the heal party or defense necessary and its rather obvious that some of our bars have a few skirmish oriented skills. Everyone knows this. As far as the cripshot vs magebane, I think they are both good 8v8, just for different styles of play. Offensively we are fine 8v8.
3)your running hexes against was the smart thing to do. Your build cannot compete with our mobility on that map. I would have done the same and applaud rawr for trying to outbuild us, thats part of guild wars. As far as whether or not the build was good, who knows, we had a billion hex removals, so its a moot point.
4)your as objective as you can be, coming from your point view, ill agree with that. We are also just as objective, just coming from a different viewpoint.

so lets just drop this pointless argument.

Div · Jan 30, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by langola

yah, we cannot fight extended 8v8 battles since our monk, Langola Redmonte, got his finger fractured by his gf when she found out he was cheating on her

Agreed. That's the main reason why we can't fight extended 8v8 battles.

langola · Jan 30, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Agreed. That's the main reason why we can't fight extended 8v8 battles.

FYI, my tip for the day for everyone here, dont slam your car door on your left hand. It breaks fingers and sux

Lews · Jan 30, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Everyone complaining about what top guilds run should shut up. You play to win, not to feel good about yourself. Why am I still repeating what I've been saying the GWWC?

Signet Of Hell · Jan 30, 2008, 09:24 AM // 09:24

lol @ people who said top 100 was boring because builds never changed, then complained about rwar changing their build. You aren't super awesome and leet if you stick to one build, never change, then bitch about people changing.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 30, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by langola

3)your running hexes against was the smart thing to do. Your build cannot compete with our mobility on that map. As far as whether or not the build was good, who knows, we had a billion hex removals, so its a moot point.

So they ran a hex build with even less mobility (no proper flagger and no real characters suited for defending a base as well as (almost?) no snares) I didn't pay too much attention to the individual skill bars they used but the team build seemed really weak to me and looked like there hadn't been much thought put into it. ("Ok guys we're playing against dR next match, let's run hexes, ok 2 migrainers an ineptitude and a corrupt, let's go! Wait, we dont have a flagger! Oh well too late to change now.")

Doji · Jan 30, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

So they ran a hex build with even less mobility (no proper flagger and no real characters suited for defending a base as well as (almost?) no snares) I didn't pay too much attention to the individual skill bars they used but the team build seemed really weak to me and looked like there hadn't been much thought put into it. ("Ok guys we're playing against dR next match, let's run hexes, ok 2 migrainers an ineptitude and a corrupt, let's go! Wait, we dont have a flagger! Oh well too late to change now.")

I'm not sure if their build was good or bad, its hard to judge a hex build when the hexes don't stick. However proper flagger (I think standard flagger would be a better term), rits don't equate to better mobility, especially rits having to fill gaps in builds with weak snares on the rit etc.

Comparing a good character that works well with the rest of the build to a character thats filling in gaps...

In rawrs shoes I would have attempted the exact same thing, they just got sloppy this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

The mesmer build has to my understanding only 1 interrupt where 2 is the norm, this is in favor of skills such as glyph energy, gale, and blackout all to take advantage of heavy movement around the map.
Also in a shields up / aegis centered meta-game running a cripshot ranger over a magebane is indeed focusing on movement control over 8v8 power, yes the actual *number* of interrupts are the same but I hardly need to explain this one to anyone.

This goes back to what you said later in the post about words being defined different, but you originally used the term "disruption." Disruption isn't exclusive to interrupts. Knock downs, and blackout are huge forms of disruption. All you're doing with disruption is creating windows of opportunity to do something.

The impression I got from the original post was "They can't 8v8 because they don't have enough disruption/or enchant removals/utility." This isn't the case, we can't 8v8 for extend periods of times because we don't have the "utility." This is where I didn't agree, but utility in this case obviously has different meanings depending on who speaking, and goes back to later in the post. I think its more appropriate to say the reason extended fights with full teams are hazardous is due to a lack of party wide healing and defense, not a lack of utility.

If I said anything more then this we would have to define terms which, I agree with you is completely pointless, and unccessary. Also for the record, gale functions fine as a interrupt in several instances, and is available more often then p drain is. Is it always as reliable? No.

Joe Hostile · Jan 30, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

dR, props on being class acts.

JR, good to see you around dude.

Lews, Morello told me to tell you Fi ain't dead just reincarnated.

Chop, you're as lovable as a panda.

Sorry I don't know who you other people are, but HI!

Billiard · Jan 30, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Well I for one am glad that some players from top guilds decided to share some insights from an interesting AT match here on our forums so other folks can get an idea of their inner workings. I hope it can continue.

Kind of disappointed by the lack of any real drama though . . .

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 30, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doji

I'm not sure if their build was good or bad, its hard to judge a hex build when the hexes don't stick. However proper flagger (I think standard flagger would be a better term), rits don't equate to better mobility, especially rits having to fill gaps in builds with weak snares on the rit etc.

It does equate to being able to keep npcs alive while you get splitted on better.

xhappy feetx · Jan 30, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

is should be on QQ.......