Curse

Son Of The Axe · Feb 05, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Chaos and rage on vent isnt a shortfall of map design......

no but they make for good forum humor? well no you need to have a soul for that....

TheHaxor · Feb 05, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

It is a pug killer map, especially when you have a couple of bad players that cant make their own decisions who just flail around waiting for their fearless leader to shout something at them.

This is completely wrong, unless you are playing with like r3 pugs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

I think the best part about the map is that its not something that people really prep for so its purely down to making the best of what you have, rather than having your build pull you through.
Its the same with relic runs, its great when neither team has much prep, but when people pack a foes and a snaring character in for those maps it removes a lot of the fun for me.

Teams that don't prep for these style maps are bad (considering both relic run and cap points are in halls). That means you are fame farming, which is fail.

Killed u man · Feb 05, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Chaos and rage on vent isnt a shortfall of map design......

Lol? It isn't always, but it definatly is in Capture Points. I've played StP in Forgotten Shrines before.

So as a reply to your "I've won because of good strategy", I say to you: The ONLY reason why you have EVER beat me, is because the DPS of a Warrior, and it's armor make it "overpowered" in 1v1 scrimmages. But that wasn't the problem, seeing I could send someone with WoW back, the biggest problem was HOW you abused 2 Fire Eles and A splinter weapon rit. 1-2-3, everything dies, HURAY, I WON CUZ I HAVE GOOD STRATEGY. No, it just doesn't work that way, you won cuz your Fire Eles were able to select someone on top of the shrine, and spam, NOTHING more, NOTHING less, they were able to spam their bar into oblivion, and even a 3 monk (Will usually have 1 or 2, seeing how you have to send 1 with ghostly) team CANNOT hold against 2 Searing Heats, 2 Tenai's Heats, 2 Rodgort's Invocations... Not when Anet forced you to TANK them all. (Rougly 700 Damage on EVERY target, that's WITHOUT counting: Wands/Warrior/Splinter/AR...)

No my friend, you don't run balanced, you abuse some broken features in the map design for Capture Points (The fact that you HAVE to ball up), and gues what, that IS a reason for chaos and rage on vent...

Kyp Jade · Feb 05, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Before someone makes the argument that you dont HAVE to tank that aoe on the shrine, you can split and go somewhere else, please stop and think before you post that.

The entire strategy to winning cap points is based on time, and how you get ahead of your opponent, its like 1v1 relic runs. You want your relic times to be low, but your opponents to be high. Same idea in capture points.
There are two kinds of ways you will split on those two maps.

Proactivly and Reactivly

Reactive splitting to exploding in aoe like that will always net you with 1 or two things you dont want. Usually both
1) you lose time, lots of time, you give them an point advantage over you for forcing them to split. What I mean is, you give up the shrine you were taking/holding, so they will have that for a point, you wont, and they have longer to think about what to do next . ENd result, they are either ahead now, or gaining momentum that you lost.

2) some of your people will get snared and die, giving them more time, which results to more points conceded to the other team as the match progresses.

Proactive splitting, means you only suffer 1, you get away before you become to pressured for someone to get snared and die easily But you still lose time.

If I recall correctly, last time i was with StP, kain gave you guys a really wicked kill build. 1 melee, 1 SA sin, fire ele, mes, water, warmonger rt, and 2 monks. Most of those characters work well at TA level (which cap pts forgotten and antechamber are really), and work amazing in the scrimmages you are forced to fight on cap pts, You dont need much strategy other than kill them to win with that build.

Btw does kain still play?

edit--Addon

When I play HA, I want to play Heroes Ascent, where on maps past burial mounds, superior tactics and skill net the win, not build wars.

When you are on capture points, if your opponent has outbuilt you, then you have to play many many times better than them to win, which is not something I feel HA should be. I do not think HA should be like gvg, sinsplit vs vodcamp

Divinus Stella · Feb 05, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Lol? It isn't always, but it definatly is in Capture Points. I've played StP in Forgotten Shrines before.

So as a reply to your "I've won because of good strategy", I say to you: The ONLY reason why you have EVER beat me, is because the DPS of a Warrior, and it's armor make it "overpowered" in 1v1 scrimmages. But that wasn't the problem, seeing I could send someone with WoW back, the biggest problem was HOW you abused 2 Fire Eles and A splinter weapon rit. 1-2-3, everything dies, HURAY, I WON CUZ I HAVE GOOD STRATEGY. No, it just doesn't work that way, you won cuz your Fire Eles were able to select someone on top of the shrine, and spam, NOTHING more, NOTHING less, they were able to spam their bar into oblivion, and even a 3 monk (Will usually have 1 or 2, seeing how you have to send 1 with ghostly) team CANNOT hold against 2 Searing Heats, 2 Tenai's Heats, 2 Rodgort's Invocations... Not when Anet forced you to TANK them all. (Rougly 700 Damage on EVERY target, that's WITHOUT counting: Wands/Warrior/Splinter/AR...)

No my friend, you don't run balanced, you abuse some broken features in the map design for Capture Points (The fact that you HAVE to ball up), and gues what, that IS a reason for chaos and rage on vent...

We havent played HA for about 4 or 5 months and when we did im pretty sure that i never played with 2 fire eles, the build you likely got farmed by was just a simple build with a warrior, shattering assault sin, SH fire ele, water ele, weapon rit, PD mesmer and 2 monks. I cant imagine how you can view that as not being a balanced build.

If you find you keep getting farmed on cap points for balling up in AoE then perhaps you should stop playing zergway or atleast learn to play the map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

If I recall correctly, last time i was with StP, kain gave you guys a really wicked kill build. 1 melee, 1 SA sin, fire ele, mes, water, warmonger rt, and 2 monks. Most of those characters work well at TA level (which cap pts forgotten and antechamber are really), and work amazing in the scrimmages you are forced to fight on cap pts, You dont need much strategy other than kill them to win with that build.

Btw does kain still play?

Thats the build, i can see why you think its strong in a split situation but its the fact that people arent afraid to go off and do their own thing that makes it strong, most teams that fail on that map lack people with confidence to take matters into their own hands, which usually means you have people stood on shrines that they arent capping while they are losing their home shrines.

Kain still plays if someone calls him, but hes not that active.

elektra_lucia · Feb 05, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Warcock - are you sure it was as much as four month ago?

'cus I remember playing with stp less than four month ago. I also remember a forgotten shrine map with you. A mesmer was trying to interrupt and you threw him off with fake casting under glyph. You were bragging about it on vent. The ironic thing is you were in the wrong place anyway but it was still cool. We won. I recall playing forgotten shrines three times. I only remember specific details of one match.

We were playing legoway in this group.

IMO you should not argue about a build or players tactics with someone like warcock. StP has some nice, decent players. Warcock just spoils that. I remember flaming a bit, because of him being a nub. At the end of the day they're all saints for keeping the twat in the guild.

Quote:

I've played StP in Forgotten Shrines before.

So as a reply to your "I've won because of good strategy", I say to you: The ONLY reason why you have EVER beat me

Again, you're kind of arguing with the wrong guy as he's just the fire ele spamming crap and talking absolute bollocks on vent?

P.S. I stand corrected. I do remember him being a water ele too (this wasn't in full StP team). We were in HoH, and he snared the yellow team instead of the red team...

Killed u man · Feb 05, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

We havent played HA for about 4 or 5 months

No need to lie, I DID play vs StP less than 1 month ago... (I can't prove it, obviously I don't screen every time I face you o.0, and I don't feel like a Yes/No conversation, so if you say StP DIDN'T play for months, so be it, no point in argueing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

and when we did im pretty sure that i never played with 2 fire eles

No StP did... (Not sure if it was YOUR team)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

the build you likely got farmed by was just a simple build with a warrior, shattering assault sin, SH fire ele, water ele, weapon rit, PD mesmer and 2 monks. I cant imagine how you can view that as not being a balanced build.

Ok, so wait:
*shattering assault : Spammable Dual Enchant removal, which often does up to 80 Dmg EACH (160 Total) every 4 Seconds IS balanced nowadays?
*SH fire ele: I Think you missed the INTIRE point of this thread
*weapon rit: Lol? You're joking right? You did NOT just call this balanced I hope...
*PD mesmer : As much as I like to play/use PD myself, we ALL know diversion is a broken skill. But it is an accepted one, such as Axe Warriors and RoF is...

WHY do claim to run balanced, when HALF your build is all about abusing overpowered AoE skills. (It's not the skills itself, it's simply a broken mechanic, Make AoE unstackable, so that you can only take X-ammount of AoE dmg per second)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

If you find you keep getting farmed on cap points for balling up in AoE then perhaps you should stop playing zergway or atleast learn to play the map.

So wait, ANY team that doesn't abuse Fire / Splinter Weapon is concidered lame now? I think you got it ALL mixed up :s

Kyp Jade · Feb 05, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

I agree that having multiple ppl with confidence to say hey you lazy ass come over on this shrine and stand here, we have to many ppl over there. Things like that generally can win matches, but when you run a build such as that, which is still very strong when you begin to strip away other components of it, then stuff dies anyway.

What I mean is on cap points, good teams split up, bad teams stand at the top and fight over it forwever.

(not always true, if your playing a holding build, you certainly want to stand at the top and try to pushyour way down, avoiding splits at all costs, because yourbuild is specced to take punishment such as on HoH cap pts)

WHen you split up, which you will do inevitably, certain ppl go certain ways, some ppl split for different reasons, such as you send pd to camp ooa no matter where he is because orders is broken and has gigantic range. In any case, you end up fighting over shrines, or between shrines trying to slow them down from reaching a shrine.

Let me just be hypothecal here

Team A (StP)
Warrior
Sin (shatter assualt)
Fire Ele
Water Ele
Mesmer
Ritualist
2 monks

Team B (random unknowns)
Warrior
2 paragon (DA, or DA + SoR)
Fire Ele
water ele
Mesmer
2 monks

Both teams will send 1 monk to babysit the ghost and poke at each others shrines, either leaving the water ele or the mesmer on the bottom to help disrupt the other teams efforts.

Both teams will run to the top capping the middle shrine on the way.

Legoway will explode if it stays at the top, so they split. No matter how they split, StP will gain the top shrine if they havetn already, and then counter legoways split.

Now, both teams have strong templates for scrimmages, but, ill point out the better ones

StP
Warrior
Assassin
Weapon Rt

Legoway
Warrior

I did not mention the water ele because generally he is busy already

Why is StP's build much more likely to win on this map?

Because even when they split up the components of thier build, they still have a lot of kill power, and not something you can expect a HA template monk to stand against. Maybe a TA monk template, not an HA one.

kudowar · Feb 05, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Why don't we go back on topic and talk about Capture points rather than calling each other noobs.

I think that winning capture points is about tactics in a 1v1 situation. Whether facing a hexway, spiritway, or heavy aoe build, tactics is the main winner in this situations. I don't want to explain all the tactics and whatnot.

BUT, in a 3-way situation in halls, capture points is the most useless map in the world. Capture points in halls is where most holders lose due to a gank from a noob team ganking in the end because "blue has 1 more point" but not realizing red has 3 shrines and blue has none. Capture points in HoH just promotes ganking and really, does not show much skill. I am in [No1] which is a remake of LuNA and we usually get kicked out of halls during a 3 way capture point because we "held" for to long. That is just retarded.

elektra_lucia · Feb 05, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

What is there to actually discuss? It fails.

Divinus Stella · Feb 05, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Nurse is diplomatic, guildchat was more along the lines of "this pug monk sucks".

I do say what im thinking on vent, a lot of pugs that play dont like me because i usually say if they are doing something wrong which hurts their ego, if i wanted to spew flowers out of my mouth and be encouraging to bad people i would play PvE.

elektra_lucia · Feb 05, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Yes you think you are a big tough guy :3. I care little about your guild chat. If I wanted to flame StP. I could flame it, and pretty badly too

.

You my friend, have not played HA as a guild in four to five months you said. Now you're admitting you have...

Quote:

they are doing something wrong which hurts their ego

To be honest, I found the whole thing amusing. You really believe/believed the nonsense you were coming out with <3.

Divinus Stella · Feb 05, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Where did i say that i have played HA recently?
Nimble is the only person who still plays HA.

elektra_lucia · Feb 05, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

When you said your infuser monk complained (when you just grabbed the relic, hope someone else lols @ this) that he infused too much, I used gift (when I didn't have gift on bar) and, you died (when no one died). I think that was like saying:

Hi. I remember this match. As it was recent and I was in it. Then I must of played recently...

kind of obvious, whatever. You bitching at monks means nothing...

I heard your vent when your team lost to sup I think it was. Even though ward of melee got put up too late and therefore got interrupted. Don't get me wrong. We all make mistakes, but whatever. Of course people will naturally bitch at someone they're new to playing with.

Phe Belladona · Feb 05, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

i would take this point to mention that we normally win on forgotten shrine because we send warrior and mesmer down to kill single monk and ghost over and over, the most help it gets is a water ele which isnt going to stand up to a mesmer.

complaining that you're not allowed to take any powerful skills in a balanced seems silly.

and yes i think warlock has played the odd HA game in the last 5months i think he's meaning "we havent HA'd seriously in 4-5months" which we havent as a guild, the assassin build was given by Kain from BSP anyway. most other time you'll have seen stp tags in HA would be myself or nimble pugging, nimble occassionally gets a couple of the guild who aint busy to play - these are usually term'd Nimblepugs

fun but not serious

elektra_lucia · Feb 05, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

If it wasn't serious he had no reason to be a stressed eric. lol.

Anyways. I don't like arguing with warcock. It brings StP into it, and they're mostly a nice bunch of people. If what was said is true about people complaining in guild chat about my monking (fair enough) but saying different things in PM then fair enough. I would actually like to know.

I enjoy being an arsehole, I just prefer to do it with some reason.

Divinus Stella · Feb 05, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

When you said your infuser monk complained (when you just grabbed the relic, hope someone else lols @ this) that he infused too much, I used gift (when I didn't have gift on bar) and, you died (when no one died). I think that was like saying:

Hi. I remember this match. As it was recent and I was in it. Then I must of played recently...

kind of obvious, whatever. You bitching at monks means nothing...

I heard your vent when your team lost to sup I think it was. Even though ward of melee got put up too late and therefore got interrupted. Don't get me wrong. We all make mistakes, but whatever. Of course people will naturally bitch at someone they're new to playing with.

Obviously that was a general comment about your monking and not about the one game on unholy. I dont think we have lost against sup in HA, iirc they play ranger spike so i dont see where a ward comes into it and i usually insist on having ranger spike counters when we play since it was at the time nearly as popular as zerg.

elektra_lucia · Feb 05, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

GVG. I think it was sup. The point here was the monks were bitched at in this game, when ward of melee was attempted to be put up late.

Anyway. Pointless debate. You're wrong about me and you are bad player (liar too).

Simple as <3. bai.

Killed u man · Feb 05, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by kudowar

Why don't we go back on topic and talk about Capture points rather than calling each other noobs.

I think that winning capture points is about tactics in a 1v1 situation. Whether facing a hexway, spiritway, or heavy aoe build, tactics is the main winner in this situations. I don't want to explain all the tactics and whatnot.

BUT, in a 3-way situation in halls, capture points is the most useless map in the world. Capture points in halls is where most holders lose due to a gank from a noob team ganking in the end because "blue has 1 more point" but not realizing red has 3 shrines and blue has none. Capture points in HoH just promotes ganking and really, does not show much skill. I am in [No1] which is a remake of LuNA and we usually get kicked out of halls during a 3 way capture point because we "held" for to long. That is just retarded.

Ok, but not matter how U twist or turn it, Retarded AoE always has a mile advantage, because U HAVE to tank it. Not tanking it would mean you're not on the shrine, which would mean you're loosing it anyways...

AoE is just the minor (Still very "large", Be honest now, HOW much AoE did you see before Cap Points was introduced? Traps and Oppressive Gaze are the only ones popping up in my mind right now... (List won't be much larger tough) How much do you see know? Well, On everage, teams have ATLEAST 1 Fire Ele, Sometimes 2 AND sometimes 2 AND an extra earth ele... ON TOP of splinter weapon.

Let's see, that's from an average of 0 didicated bars to AoE to an average of 2-4 bars of AoE upon the introduction of Capture Points... I rest my case...

Lorekeeper · Feb 05, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

i think the popularity of fire eles is explained by several contributing factors including but not exclusive to the fact that HA has 3 capture point maps in it.

They include

1) loss of LoD - HB+Heal party just doesnt come close to LoD's value cos of the energy cost
2) buff to rodgort's invocation making it an extremely powerful spike skill
3) rodgort's invocation on a mind blast ele bar = plenty of energy to regularly spike with a 25 energy spell.
4) dervish lead spikes buffed with splinter weapon and joined with rodgort's invocation = insane aoe dmg spike (and we all know HA scrubs love their 321's).

mindblast fire eles are everything an HA team would want for HA.

a) relic running ability with flame djinns haste
b) aoe ability for clearing altars and killing spirits and general pressure with tenias and searing heat
c) massive spike damage with rodgort's invocation
d) incredible energy management with mind blast+fire attune (so easy my grandma could do it) that allows it to spike as often as spikes are called.
e) and it fits the buttonmashing requirement for builds that HA scrubs lurve.

now, its important to remember that the majority of teams with these kind of builds also have scythe leading the spike with splinter weapon.

Splinter weapon has also become quite a problem in GvG.

And dervishes with scythes have had a history of balance woes.

perhaps if splinter weapon gets balanced things wont be so unbearable for you altar ballers...

and if not... id definately support something done to rodgorts invocation, its crazy damage with the burning factored in.

As for Fire damage over time aoe... id hate to see it nerfed... it discourages lame teams that ball in multiple wards... thats the compromise you gotta make. Id hate to see monk balls on the HoH altar because noone has any aoe to kill them...

but then again HA scrubs tend to think that holding builds like that are fun...

oh well... if they like it... give it to them... im sure they will come crying on the forums about something else in the future.