Curse

pah01 · Jan 30, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Hi,

I haven't seen something written about this kind of thing in a while. A lot of people call this "active" play as opposed to "passive" and it is assumed that the reader knows that active play requires more skill and is therefore a lot more fun than "passive" play. I would like to use these concepts to explain why the new classes are just bad.

The mind-game between active protection skills and melee.

Active protection skills are protective enchantments that have to be cast directly on the person who needs them when they need them. Examples of such skills are Guardian, Spirit Bond, Protective Spirit, Shielding Hands and Shield of absorption.

Monks of a good level watch the battlefield to predict from positioning and movement those people on their teams who need those protections.

Warriors of a good level on the other hand watch this and try to hide their intentions and avoid these protections.

At a high level of play this basic interaction is a lot of fun and requires a significant deal of skill to play.

The next level here is that it is not eneogh to keep teams up with just these active skills alone. People have to "kite" from melee to help get the most use of the monks skills and mitigate damage from melee this way.

[This is why teleporting actually destroys some of the skillful aspects of the game. It just takes away from battlefield awareness and is just completely open to abuse. This is one of the reasons why assassins are considered skill-less.]

What about "Passive" defense

The problem with passive defense is that it is "Fire and Forget" until its recharged. It is something that doesn't require skill to put up outside of fake casting with GOLE and becomes something that warriors don't avoid but simply hope their mid-line interrupted it.

Because positioning and movement and smart choice of targets doesn't effect skills like aegis I don't think that its a good thing for teams to have multiple forms of it, This is even tho it does take awareness to put the skill up due to the proliferation of interrupts.

The mind-game between other control templates and melee.

On top of this teams have other character templates that help to mitigate damage specifically Blind and cripple conditions to prevent damage directly or inhibits the warriors ability to even get into a position to deal damage. This adds another layer of complexity to the game.

Skills that inflict these conditions benefit a lot more in the hands of a skilled player who knows when the best times to blind a warrior are etcetera. Blinding a warrior just as he is unloading his eviscerate is a very good thing to do whereas using it at the wrong time is a waste of energy. Crippling a warrior just after he shocks a target isn't very good either.

[This is why it is so completely stupid for "avatar of remove a whole aspect of active play from the game" to even exist in the form it does. This explains one of the retarded qualities of the dervishe.]

Some Hex spells are actually active as well. Skills that don't last very long but have high rewards are very effective in the hands of the right player. Catching both warriors in a blurred vision or a reckless haste isn't that easy.

Skills like Price of failure which are just put it on and leave for 30 seconds are the exact opposite. This is a passive skill.

Active Play vs Passive Play and the new classes

I will be the first to admit things are not quite as clear cut as these concepts but almost everything that the new classes has brought to the game has been a detraction of some kind from the kind of play that is healthy.

In general people take most satisfaction from "outplaying" their opponent. I would put money on the idea that the best players in the game took most satisfaction from victories won through good tactics rather than we brought along our build.

JR admits in his post that the ritualists/assasins are bad for the game, seriously though so are the nightfall classes.

Why do I think it is bad for paragons to output significant pressure?

Generally because of the ease with which Paragons can avoid active prots by simply changing the target on the spot. The fact that Paragons are barely effected by positioning and kiting is a bad thing for the game. While I have absolutely no problem with them being a very good spike assist I think that their attack rate should be nerfed, along with making aggressive refrain a non-permanent skill.

This is one of the reasons why passive defense is necessary because active defense is insufficient to deal with the threat of paragon pressure on top of warriors.

These are significant tweaks IMO.

The dervish is just redundant

If you want to encourage skillfull play you just make dervishes play like warriors do which is redundant. Otherwise they see play for broken reasons like Ridiculous spikes, Aoe scything NPCS/Altars and Retarded Avatars. There is nothing more to say about this class.

Joe

Vaga · Jan 30, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

I agree with what you say about paragons, I think this is a pretty obvious problem with the game right now.

Dervish I think could be fixed if they took the class in more of the direction of making them into a midliner. There were quite a few quality midline builds floating around during the preview weekend (aside from stacking enchants) like with pious renewal and avatar of melandru guy with draw. I think it could be possible for them to act a bit like a smiter with some aoe spells + some healing whilst being a reasonably skillful class.

ANet wont do that but even so the whole glass cannon thing was an ok place for dervish, if you wanted to take the risk of having a 60al frontliner some of the scythe mastery elites could be made to be pretty good for spreading deep wound/conditions and just punishing poor positioning. Obviously at the top level they wouldn't be used that much since theoretically there wouldn't be positioning to punish but at lower tiers or just if you want to try rick roll some teams on open ladder it would be ok. The main problem with them is just that they aren't worth the risk of running without melandru form, and if you buff their other skills they'll just be run with god mode since they aren't prepared to nerf that form.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jan 30, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

All of this sadly falls on deaf ears. The only time things change for better or worse, is when Izzy gets drunk, decides to nerf heavily used meta skills, and buffs some random shit that gets abused for the next 3 months and shakes the meta up... At this point in time I may say bring it on,tabs on me.

Kaon · Jan 30, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Passive defense doesn't allow for mistakes and therefore is wrong by default.

Yes there should be some to keep the game in balance. Ward against melee is one of the best passive defenses because placement of it requires skill.

deya · Jan 30, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Passive defense doesn't allow for mistakes and therefore is wrong by default.

Yes there should be some to keep the game in balance. Ward against melee is one of the best passive defenses because placement of it requires skill.

IMO it's just plain stupid skill cause sitting in wards is basicly instawin vs warriors as long as it's up..

tigros · Jan 30, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Wards are not stupid... you cannot take them on your back and run away with them

placed correctly they're good semi active defenses... You can have aegis or DA on you and on top of them freedom of movement... that's passive.

Sitting in a ward might be good prot vs melee, but it kills your battlefield mobility... if the attackers shift the pressure outside the ward range, you can still sit in it to be protected, but in the same time be of no help to your team or the battle hot spot that had just moved away...

Wards encourage spatial tactical play...

Nazka2002 · Jan 30, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by deya

IMO it's just plain stupid skill cause sitting in wards is basicly instawin vs warriors as long as it's up..

I dont think thats true, its like saying blind is dumb. no. justfind a way around it. rigor mortis, interupt the next ward... its really not that hard, you just need to know what to do and when.

if the ele goes to put up a ward and u shock, disrupting (50%), mesmer interupt.. gale.. there are many ways to get out of this. ive never seen any melee ward be auto win... usually the eles that use it dont know how to and use it in stupid locations then spend all their energy on meteor shower so in the end, its a good skill if used right but can be countered pretty easely aswell.

Kaon · Jan 30, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by deya

IMO it's just plain stupid skill cause sitting in wards is basicly instawin vs warriors as long as it's up..

As long as it's up and as long as your character is in it. It's got a very active element in it and the counters all make the skill interesting. We raped [rawr] in september MAT final so fast BECAUSE they had ward, if they didnt have the skill they wouldve died slower.

Compare this skill to shouts that go up without cast time, position, and are uninterruptable. Surely of ALL passive defenses ward has to be the best-designed one.

AshenX · Jan 30, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Throughout history warfare (and PVP is warfare IMO) has been in a constant state of evolution. New technology (professions in GW terminology), new tactics, new ways of thinking. All have made their mark. Tactics are not ruined by new technology but rather are encouraged. Without innovation (technological or otherwise) tactics become stale and repetitive. With an influx of new possibilities (through technology, professions, skills, etc) new tactics must evolve to meet new challenges. I am sorry that I must respectfully disagree with you but the addition of new professions/skills/etc is not bad for the game-just bad for old tactics. Ont he other hand your post was very well written and extremely well thought out. Thank you for your insight.

deya · Jan 30, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

As long as it's up and as long as your character is in it. It's got a very active element in it and the counters all make the skill interesting. We raped [rawr] in september MAT final so fast BECAUSE they had ward, if they didnt have the skill they wouldve died slower.

Compare this skill to shouts that go up without cast time, position, and are uninterruptable. Surely of ALL passive defenses ward has to be the best-designed one.

Yes propably best-designed one, but overpowered imo. You can basicly keep it at all times, it's fairly hard to interrupt when on a mesmer or even better, putting up a ward with GoLE. I've never said that ward only sucks, I hate passive defense - all forms of it.

Double Pact · Jan 30, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I don't mind a ward as long as there aren't tons of other passive defenses on top of it.

@Thread poster: Quite right, but most of it is known to the community anyway and is constantly being ingored by anet.

Kaon · Jan 30, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by deya

Yes propably best-designed one, but overpowered imo. You can basicly keep it at all times, it's fairly hard to interrupt when on a mesmer or even better, putting up a ward with GoLE. I've never said that ward only sucks, I hate passive defense - all forms of it.

Agree on all parts, but passive defense is a necessary against massive physicals.

I say fast cast sets and gole should be nerfed, also interrupts should be nerfed so whenever you can use them it needs to hit on the right spell. You can keep a ward down for a long time by shocking the mesmer at the right time or putting diversion on him.

pah01 · Jan 31, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

Throughout history warfare (and PVP is warfare IMO) has been in a constant state of evolution. New technology (professions in GW terminology), new tactics, new ways of thinking. All have made their mark. Tactics are not ruined by new technology but rather are encouraged.

This is quite true in warfare. You will use whatever tactic, deception to win because it is your life on the line.

However Guildwars GVG is a competitive game which attracts people because it is "fun" to play and so direct comparisons between actual real-life warfare is not the best way to think about a competitive computer game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

Without innovation (technological or otherwise) tactics become stale and repetitive. With an influx of new possibilities (through technology, professions, skills, etc) new tactics must evolve to meet new challenges.

I am not against innovation. The issue is not with the fact that there "was" innovation. It is the actual content of those innovations that the GVG and PVP community actually take issue with.

The innovations by arenanet in factions and nightfall should have brought to the table a set of professions that brought "active" types of play to the table. The fact that they brought more and more "passive" types of play to the table is the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

I am sorry that I must respectfully disagree with you but the addition of new professions/skills/etc is not bad for the game-just bad for old tactics. Ont he other hand your post was very well written and extremely well thought out. Thank you for your insight.

I have a question, do you understand why I say that teleporting is bad for the game? If you can see why this is the case for teleporting and especially why I am hating on Melandru then we can try and reach a sort of consensus.

On Ward Vs Melee

The problem with ward melee is the fact that if you bring it you want it to be up all the time. This skill needs to be directly comparable to aegis in its duration and recharge because of the fact that its "fire and forget" usage is always going to have a great passive element in it.

It needs its duration cut by around 3 seconds at each attribute breakpoint and its recharge upped to 30 seconds.

Joe

Seamus Finn · Jan 31, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I say fast cast sets and gole should be nerfed,

Nerfing the wands sets is a pretty big hit to casters in a game that is already all about the physicals. You sure about that?

TheOneMephisto · Jan 31, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Nerfing the wands sets is a pretty big hit to casters in a game that is already all about the physicals. You sure about that?

Yes. The game always has been and always will be about physicals (besides degenerate spike builds). I don't see anything wrong with that, it's the very basis of the game.

However, I do think that the random chance that the sets present is quite detrimental to the game, especially in the interrupt-heavy meta where luck becomes even more of a factor. There's a reason why GW attempted to reduce the impact of luck as much as possible. A potentially game-breaking play should not depend so heavily on luck in order to work/fail.

C2K · Jan 31, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I think there is merit in the argument against AoM.

AoM was always the strongest of the avatars even during the WPE. The only thing that has happened to it is a reduction in hp bonus by 100.. ok..

Avatar of Grenth was has another formidible avatar. It was strong, arguably very strong, but nowhere near the power of AoM in any environment. Instead, it took a nerf in duration and practically killed its application in pretty much all competative play.

That said, its probably time for AoM to recieve that duration reduction or another similiar nerf.

erk · Jan 31, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

However, I do think that the random chance that the sets present is quite detrimental to the game, especially in the interrupt-heavy meta where luck becomes even more of a factor. There's a reason why GW attempted to reduce the impact of luck as much as possible. A potentially game-breaking play should not depend so heavily on luck in order to work/fail.

In that case lets do away with other random chance things like critical hits from Critical Strikes and Weapons Masteries.

Or perhaps the random chance of a successful block etc. I am sure people would love Guardian to offer 100% block.

Chance has always been part of the game design.

Micro management of caster weapon sets, eg. knowing when to switch to a 40/40 set, is one of the key indicators of good players vs scrub.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 31, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by deya

I've never said that ward only sucks, I hate passive defense - all forms of it.

Deya rather runs a 3rd monk and puts distortion on all chars

pah01 · Jan 31, 2008, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Facing four gale warriors is reason eneogh to run distortion on all softies

Kaon · Jan 31, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

In that case lets do away with other random chance things like critical hits from Critical Strikes and Weapons Masteries.

Or perhaps the random chance of a successful block etc. I am sure people would love Guardian to offer 100% block.

Chance has always been part of the game design.

Micro management of caster weapon sets, eg. knowing when to switch to a 40/40 set, is one of the key indicators of good players vs scrub.

It's always been part of the game and that's bad. Chance should be minimalized as much as possible.

Micromanaging weaponsets as a reason to keep them? Insane, i think almost everyone just casts on their 40/40set always and switches to shield set when they get spiked, or enchantment set now and then for enchantments. Next to that they switch back and forth from high and low set but 40/40 has little to do with that.

40/40 Sets are a chance element in the game that snuck in mostly after Nightfall release with the new PvP characters. It serves no purpose but to let lucky (and lesser skilled) people give a better shot. Especially in short skirmishes, fastcasts on weapon of warding WILL turn around the skirmish and probably the game.

I'd say remove them and nerf interrupts massively while buffing other forms of shutdown (gale, blackout).