Curse

Riotgear · Feb 10, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

If you don't think WoH or guardian is the problem, then what do you think caused the sudden change from massive death to massive being alive?

Not getting spammed by p-leak, mountains of defense from motigons.

WoH could use a slight recharge hit regardless.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 10, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

I agree with you there, Mitch, but I don't know that the block % on guardian is the real problem. No matter what it is, you don't want to be swinging into it, especially if there is Aegis or ward present. So hitting something like the recharge or duration might be more effective.

Yeah the block % probably wouldnt change that much, and I think that touching the duration would mainly make it a lot less viable on splits (I don't think it's a problem on splits) so I'd say add 2-3 seconds to the recharge and see how it works out.

Kaon · Feb 10, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Not getting spammed by p-leak, mountains of defense from motigons.

WoH could use a slight recharge hit regardless.

Read please. Im not talking about a 2day old meta. I'm talking about the horrid game we had ever since 8november 2007. Powerleak was the only thing to pressure.

Before 8/11: Massive deaths, games take 8minutes or less. A bit of build variation.
After 8/11: Far less deaths, games are 1 dimensional, boring, and often go to vod. Barely any build variation.

Putting the blame on powerleak for people to stop dying is quite ridiculous as the skill remained unchanged.

Farin · Feb 10, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

When DF wins the game is balanced.

erk · Feb 10, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Read please. Im not talking about a 2day old meta. I'm talking about the horrid game we had ever since 8november 2007. Powerleak was the only thing to pressure.

Before 8/11: Massive deaths, games take 8minutes or less. A bit of build variation.
After 8/11: Far less deaths, games are 1 dimensional, boring, and often go to vod. Barely any build variation.

Putting the blame on powerleak for people to stop dying is quite ridiculous as the skill remained unchanged.

All that happened back on Nov 8th. was LoD got nerfed so people discovered new builds eg. Motigon and block webs. You can put LoD back exactly the way it was and people are not going to suddenly stop using those builds!

assassin of the god · Feb 10, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

[email protected] is OP.
As for VIO, it is a good idea to make npcs more rewarding and vital, but as it stands a team can have 2 guys at 45% DP and win at vod because they ran around all game and killed 2 archers to the other team's 1. Making npcs and splitting pre-vod more important is good, but doing it by making everything else meaningless is pretty dumb.

Vaga · Feb 11, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

All that happened back on Nov 8th. was LoD got nerfed so people discovered new builds eg. Motigon and block webs. You can put LoD back exactly the way it was and people are not going to suddenly stop using those builds!

why do you even post here? you clearly don't gvg you should just stop. When LoD was nerfed you had to stop running an offensive guy in slot 5 which is what you needed to break the defensive teams 8v8. Teams also ran lod runners so that changed as well.

I have to say guardian as it is right now is slightly op, it lasts like over 7s at 14 prot i think? but there's a lot more broken stuff that needs to be fixed before you start looking at stuff that actually takes some skill to use like guardian.

Cass · Feb 11, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Guardian is absolutely fine compared with the shittiness of GoLE's FREE cancelling mechanic.

This is going in the direction of the moaning about power leak, which was equally silly. Active play with a skill like Guardian should be encouraged. Passive play with wards, Song of Resto, WY, and cancel-Aegis should be toned down and we'd have a more interesting meta IMO.

deya · Feb 11, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Guardian is absolutely fine compared with the shittiness of GoLE's FREE cancelling mechanic.

This is going in the direction of the moaning about power leak, which was equally silly. Active play with a skill like Guardian should be encouraged. Passive play with wards, Song of Resto, WY, and cancel-Aegis should be toned down and we'd have a more interesting meta IMO.

Best post of the year my friend!

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 11, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Guardian is absolutely fine compared with the shittiness of GoLE's FREE cancelling mechanic.

This is going in the direction of the moaning about power leak, which was equally silly. Active play with a skill like Guardian should be encouraged. Passive play with wards, Song of Resto, WY, and cancel-Aegis should be toned down and we'd have a more interesting meta IMO.

I don't disagree, but this doesn't mean that active prots can't be overpowered, guardian could do with a little recharge nerf.

Akaraxle · Feb 11, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

It would be nice if active play such as blinds and cripples wouldn't be owned so hard by condi reducing runes too.

Kaon · Feb 11, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Guardian is absolutely fine compared with the shittiness of GoLE's FREE cancelling mechanic.

This is going in the direction of the moaning about power leak, which was equally silly. Active play with a skill like Guardian should be encouraged. Passive play with wards, Song of Resto, WY, and cancel-Aegis should be toned down and we'd have a more interesting meta IMO.

Yes of course! Aegis is retarded beyond comparison but that is common sense and doesn't even need discussion. And OF COURSE active prot needs to be encouraged. The problem is that currently guardian synergizes so extremely well with WoH that the simply sucks right now.

Using guardian and such types of spells should be encouraged, but not by making them also superoverpowered compared to superoverpowered passive prot. Right now monks are in a state of immortal godliness. They can heal and prot excessive amounts of damage with barely any energy at all! This is WRONG. It's funny how people always complain about overpowered offense but only rarely people complain about overpowered monks. Games take too long because stuff doesnt die. Stuff doesnt die because defense currently is overpowered. The only defense that changed lately were guardian and word of healing. This already leads to a logical explanation. Next to that you can analyze it very easily like i have done countless times in this topic.

So why don't they fix what's broken then? Because people rarely complain about monk skills. A quarter of the players in guild wars is a monk, Andrew is a monk, and the only time i saw Izzy play he was a monk too. This leads to extreme biases. For years we've never really minded overpowered monk bars, because whenever they buffed it, 25% of the players were happy. How can I complain about a skillbalance when there's 2-3 guildies shaking with excitement cause they can keep the team up better. I'm happy myself cause I know we won't die as much. It's hard to protest against something that appears to only benefit you. You can see it very clearly in this topic that many players dont want to see guardian/woh nerfed because their monks will die faster, they forget that opponent monks die faster too! Objectively speaking guardian and WoH are the direct cause of what turned this game into shit.

Before 08/11 you had an lod monk with only very little selfprotection, right now you have a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing WoH monk with guardian. I'd almost say 2 old LoD monks would die faster than a single WoH monk of nowadays, eventhough that probably isn't true :P.

But as I said before, it might be interesting to note that when the game had it's peaks of best playstyles, monk bars were many times weaker than they are right now. Winkwink.

Kahmal · Feb 11, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

and the only time i saw Izzy play he was a monk too.

He has played for us on a paragon.(not a healagon)

but thats beside the point I guess.

JR · Feb 11, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

A quarter of the players in guild wars is a monk, Andrew is a monk, and the only time i saw Izzy play he was a monk too. This leads to extreme biases.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Do you honestly think that they balanced based on influence/bias from the classes you seem to think they play the most?

I have played with Izzy with him on Warrior most frequently, but also Me/A runner, Paragon, Assassin and Monk. No doubt he has played many other classes in GvG too.

As much as you may not like the way he balances it is truly condescending to assume he is so simply minded.

Kaon · Feb 11, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

That's absolutely ridiculous. Do you honestly think that they balanced based on influence/bias from the classes you seem to think they play the most?

I dont think so but there's a good chance the bias players have will also affect the devs. One of the standard ways of thinking seems to be: "If things die really really quickly, something must be overpowered, but if things barely die, then it's not special so nothing is overpowered."

Yue · Feb 11, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

In september and october 2007 this game was in one of it's BEST balance states and metas it had ever been in. Only the prophecies and post-factions metas were better because there was much more build variance and it allowed more build variance. In terms of skill and play adaptability many things were possible and rewarded. Yes people ran only 1 build with slight variations (balanced with ele or paragon variance, sometimes dropping their ranger, and sinsplit) but matches features countless deaths, skill was rewarded, and you could try different strategies. There were still a few flaws that could've been adressed.

This is an important point to emphasize. During this period, the only primary game fixes that were needed was for sineptitude and vod. Most of the skills and skill synergies were already pretty balanced, and promoted balanced gameplay that emphasized split as a TACTIC and not as a BUILD, the way it should be.

Guardian wasn't really imbalanced since someone who uses it that often could get punished with a pleak. Too bad you can't do that anymore.

Problem. · Feb 11, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Guardian is absolutely fine compared with the shittiness of GoLE's FREE cancelling mechanic.

This is going in the direction of the moaning about power leak, which was equally silly. Active play with a skill like Guardian should be encouraged. Passive play with wards, Song of Resto, WY, and cancel-Aegis should be toned down and we'd have a more interesting meta IMO.

I'm going to have to disagree with your statement being a more interesting meta.

If you tone-down defense, offense will just walk all over monks. Essentially, that means games will come down to whoever can deplete the enemy backlines energy the fastest or score the first chain kill. Im not sure how interesting that would be, of course this would probably force more skirmishes, but now that your team is wiped, the enemy team can overcompensate to ensure kills on those characters splitting off.

I seriously think the problem lies within that P/W template with Song of Restoration. My guild currently runs various forms of balanced day to day. In particular, we tend to run the "DF-esque" build that DF won with in monthly, and teams are generally able to score kills on us. Granted we run dual-Aegis, dual Guardians, and a Ward. Monking in that backline, I tend to favor Mending Touch over Glyph of Lesser, just because I find thats its really helpful in negativing trains of conditions + warrior damage on me. However, my point is, teams are able to score kills on us, just because they can out-last us. This is why we generally split off and force mistakes vs. teams with that P/W.

I will agree however, with encouraging active play. Active play will always reward the more skilled players/teams. I just don't see anyway of making Aegis, any more active than it already is (or lack thereof), not to mention its necessity in today's current metagame. The addition of a ranged DPS character, that can switch targets on the fly, essentially avoiding all forms of active prot, will take too much of a toll on backlines without the passivity of Aegis. If you destroy Aegis, you will more than likely stagnate the metagame even more, shatter any hopes of build diversity, because Paragons are currently the superior midline in terms of dealing damage.

erk · Feb 11, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

why do you even post here? you clearly don't gvg you should just stop. When LoD was nerfed you had to stop running an offensive guy in slot 5 which is what you needed to break the defensive teams 8v8. Teams also ran lod runners so that changed as well.

I have to say guardian as it is right now is slightly op, it lasts like over 7s at 14 prot i think? but there's a lot more broken stuff that needs to be fixed before you start looking at stuff that actually takes some skill to use like guardian.

Cut the insults please, I will reiterate my last post, on 8 Nov the major change was the LoD nerf which resulted in the use of some other builds. You can put LoD back the way is was and people will not stop running these new builds they have now discovered, all you will do is make a new meta again.

Martin Firestorm · Feb 11, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I have played with Izzy with him on Warrior most frequently, but also Me/A runner, Paragon, Assassin and Monk. No doubt he has played many other classes in GvG too.

We played against fianna with Izzy once--he was a warrior, a good one.

Kaon · Feb 11, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

If you tone-down defense, offense will just walk all over monks. Essentially, that means games will come down to whoever can deplete the enemy backlines energy the fastest or score the first chain kill. Im not sure how interesting that would be, of course this would probably force more skirmishes, but now that your team is wiped, the enemy team can overcompensate to ensure kills on those characters splitting off.

What makes you think that toning down defense means everyone will get destroyed or that they will tone it down so badly things die within a second?

And even if that happened it wouldnt always be a bad thing. A strategy that used to be viable for a long time against split was to just wtfpwn their mainteam and grab their base while holding them up with a monk in the base. See september quarterfinal vZ vs BG. Flawless victory for vZ after 6minutes. We knew they'd run their split and it was nomads. We had a monk defending the base, took a HIGHLY offensive mainteam and just raped their standteam within 70seconds. They baseressed and at 3:59 they didnt have any NPCs left, they baseressed again and at 5:30 it was game over. Right now this strategy is only possible with something like paragonway.

Falling back on the "bronze age" of guild wars before 08/11, I don't see why it's impossible to return to that age, or even make it better. The game was clearly better back then so why not take a step back and improve stuff from there on? The step they took on that date was clearly wrong and it would be admirable see Anet admit they made a mistake and revert it.