Curse

Lorekeeper · Feb 04, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Hi all

Can anyone who has developed or learnt a reliable strategy to tackle sineptitude post it here so that the less experienced teams in the GvG community?

Or post some small tips or vital things to remember while fighting the build?

Me and my guildies were trying to think of how to beat it but couldnt come up with a comprehensive approach, we faced it in an AT recently and saw that even low ranked guilds who chose to run the build boosted their ranks from 500+ to 100-200.

Things i could think of doing were (depending on the map)

1) run a build with no physicals and bypass the dual ineptitude mesmers with caster based damage (so we see things like caster spikes eg pp/shatter and enchanters conundrum like we saw spnv or hand running, or things like vwk rit tanks and dual ele nukers ala PvE)

2) defend all NPCs until VoD pack significant VoD utility like fire ele and splinter weapon, perhaps dual paragon midline with defensive shouts like DA watch yourself and shields up... etc etc

3) chase down the assa split so they cant get anything done (but they just send a mes to help and ur pressure is *poof* gone.

4) is a guild lord gank at VoD possible vs the build assuming your NPCs win the stand?

But to be honest i have had little experience fighting the build so all i can think of is in terms of theory... i just thought that considering the hooha thats surrounding the build for the recent monthlies perhaps the more experienced of the community could come out and share their insights in ways they have tried to beat the build... even posting failed strategies can help...

so the floor is yours...

Burton2000 · Feb 04, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Wouldnt iQing it work? Obviously with a different team build to the standard one so you have counters to the inteptitudes.

kvndoom · Feb 04, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I did see someone over the weekend run a Dwayna dervish with two spammable stances. A fast-recharging skill could be spammed to keep health up and hexes off while under Dwayna, and heal enough to ease the energy demand for monks. Energy would be an issue though. Reversal of Fortune, maybe? With 15 Mysticism it would pay for itself, and the recharge is low enough to be effective.

Elean · Feb 04, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Anyway, generally when playing vs. sineptitude, you should keep a PS on both your meleers, and preferrably veils on both, too. This way they can stay on frenzy, because they won't take any more damage then (inep and clums both hit for over 60 without frenzy anyway) and your mes and ranger (and warriors, if they carrey interrupts, like most do) have a better shot at interrupting and disabling the mesmers' clumsiness spam.

If you have problems with staying alive in your defensive split, you can most of the time split the RC (assuming you're on RC+WoH). The WoH should be able to handle the main team with PS and veil bonding.

My 2 cents.

Elean

lacasner · Feb 04, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Go go go spellbreaker on melees.

Idk, the real way I see it can work is probably make different type of damage output from wars and such to more caster-ish or maybe switch to different derv avatars for counters.

Burton2000 · Feb 04, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

You cant go full caster damage otherwise they just send their mesmers to the split and your not gonna be able to kill 2 monks.

Div · Feb 04, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Can anyone who has developed or learnt a reliable strategy to tackle sineptitude post it here so that the less experienced teams in the GvG community?

As far as I know, no one has a reliable strategy to counter good sineptitude team without completely speccing them and making the team build really bad against other builds. Sure, there are team strategies that one can follow, but that's only reliable up to a certain point and one mistake can still destroy you.

Quote:

Or post some small tips or vital things to remember while fighting the build?

Contain their sins that are splitting into your base. Make sure ineptitude mesmers don't pick off archers. Don't get behind on flags because they run really fast and have multiple snares (siphon, shadow prison, grasping earth, imagined burden).

Quote:

Me and my guildies were trying to think of how to beat it but couldnt come up with a comprehensive approach, we faced it in an AT recently and saw that even low ranked guilds who chose to run the build boosted their ranks from 500+ to 100-200.

Expected. Guilds are capable of riding it to way above what rank they should be if they played any other build.

Quote:

1) run a build with no physicals and bypass the dual ineptitude mesmers with caster based damage (so we see things like caster spikes eg pp/shatter and enchanters conundrum like we saw spnv or hand running, or things like vwk rit tanks and dual ele nukers ala PvE)

Great, but as I mentioned, a team that has multiple builds would wreck this. Going into a match vs, say, SpNv preparing for sineptitude when they pull out balanced or dual paragons will be pretty disastrous for your team.

Quote:

2) defend all NPCs until VoD pack significant VoD utility like fire ele and splinter weapon, perhaps dual paragon midline with defensive shouts like DA watch yourself and shields up... etc etc

Sure, but you have to note in general, sineptitude does a lot less damage over time than normal builds, so if they run any normal build, they'll probably be able to crack your NPCs, even if it means making suicide runs like they do in BYOB.

Quote:

4) is a guild lord gank at VoD possible vs the build assuming your NPCs win the stand?

Possibly one of the more interesting strategies, as you can threaten splits and force their assassins back. We've been discussing a similar strategy that has been untested at the moment. You don't usually see high ranked American guilds running sineptitude, so it's hard to get the practice. Against bad ones, you'd be able to outsplit them by sheer skill and win easily.

Quote:

But to be honest i have had little experience fighting the build so all i can think of is in terms of theory...

Welcome to American times. I'm sure Euros and Japanese would have more insight, as many of them run or have fought against top sineptitudes.

Winstar · Feb 04, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

If you play at American times enjoy the relatively sin free ride to monthly champs and hope that by that time something is done to reduce the build to obscurity.

Iotan · Feb 04, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

One of the worst things that the new sineptitude has is Shroud of Silence and Rigor Mortis. A lot of Euro and Jap guilds have been bringing CoP (it lives again!!!) for defending the base. This seems to be working relatively well, and along with a stance it should keep your monk alive vs. the sins. I don't think anything else would be able to defend the base. The dual sins are still able to take out archers on the periphery but the boat can stay largely in tact for a decent amount of time. The sins will get lucky eventually so it isn't foolproof.

I'd like to try bringing some Eles using some of the damage elites. Shatterstone and Mind Schock are great damage if you have some way of taking down SB/PS. I don't know the Mo/A's bar on these sineptitudes but speccing to take him down in a 3v3 situation is something I think could be done well.

Of course this build would also be a pretty big gimmick but it appears that's what is needed. I can't see how the traditional physicals (derv, war, para) can function well against sineptitude so I just wouldn't bring any. You get screwed when the opposing team changes builds but what can you do?

Lucius2 · Feb 04, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

idk, but when i watched today the 2 games of apr first vs sts and then vs goh, i just thought omfg and my conclusion was then, that this sinsplit cannot be beaten if played well.

first again the map rotation e.g. is perfect again for sinsplit (worms, corrupted,...).
2nd) sts and goh played both total gimp builds, just created vs sinshit.
worms isle: sts had 1 dwayna derv, 1 mel derv with hex breaker, 1 GoE mes, 2 mindblasts with blind and ofc 3 monks. they couldn't keep up, either themselves nor the archers and just blew up in vod like always vs sinsplit.

corrupted isle: goh played 5 eles, 3 monks (2 e/d mind blast bflash eles, 1 bsurge, 1 sh, 1 mind freeze with blurred and stuff). well they could prevent themselves from dieing, but had at vod only the bodyguard left lol. and this is exactly the point: u cannot watch all ur 8 guys + the whole base, because everyone is too mobile in this build and always porting around and so on. well the conclusion was, that goh blew also up vs all the npcs after a while, despite they had lots of aoe.

and i mean this can only be a joke if u still lose with a total counter build, what shall u do then? i would be really interested what izzy might say to this lol

Andrew Patrick · Feb 04, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

We are looking at skill changes, as well as changes to VoD and the NPCs for the upcoming update. I have been passing on all the feedback regarding the sudden popularity of Sineptitude, and it is being looked into.

NamelessBeauty · Feb 04, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

To anti Sin Split + Inep you could do 1 or more of the following options:

1. Run hex way, my guild beat Sin Inep with hex way before.
2. Hope for small map that you can run (or teleport) back to base QUICK. The best thing is Burning Isle because they can not split well.
3. Diversion those Inep (easier to say than do this.)
4. Run hex breaker (nobody run this but it will serve what need to be done against Inep.)
5. Tutle back home till VoD. I would not suggest this but some certain build can give you advatage in VoD vs sin split (CASTER spike build - bspike, Invoke Lighting.) Just making sure ALL the NPCs are alive.
6. Just run Sin split or M-Blast split like them which I would not reg because it's lame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

We are looking at skill changes, as well as changes to VoD and the NPCs for the upcoming update. I have been passing on all the feedback regarding the sudden popularity of Sineptitude, and it is being looked into.

Thank you! Looking for that!

JR · Feb 04, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Crushed a number of sin split builds recently by running a good old MH splitadin Warrior. Disciplined Stance makes it almost impossible for sins to kill, while it can pressure and kill the monk quite effectively with a bit of support.

Splitadin
Warrior/Monk
Strength: 2
Swordsmanship: 13 (12+1)
Tactics: 14 (12+2)
Protection Prayers: 2

Frenzy (Warrior other)
Sprint (Strength)
Savage Slash (Swordsmanship)
Mending Touch (Protection Prayers)
Crippling Slash [Elite] (Swordsmanship)
Gash (Swordsmanship)
Disciplined Stance (Tactics)
Healing Signet (Tactics)

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 04, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Crushed a number of sin split builds recently by running a good old MH splitadin Warrior. Disciplined Stance makes it almost impossible for sins to kill, while it can pressure and kill the monk quite effectively with a bit of support.

Splitadin
Warrior/Monk
Strength: 2
Swordsmanship: 13 (12+1)
Tactics: 14 (12+2)
Protection Prayers: 2

Frenzy (Warrior other)
Sprint (Strength)
Savage Slash (Swordsmanship)
Mending Touch (Protection Prayers)
Crippling Slash [Elite] (Swordsmanship)
Gash (Swordsmanship)
Disciplined Stance (Tactics)
Healing Signet (Tactics)

That was vs r300 and worse guilds tho ;o

erk · Feb 05, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

We are looking at skill changes, as well as changes to VoD and the NPCs for the upcoming update. I have been passing on all the feedback regarding the sudden popularity of Sineptitude, and it is being looked into.

It's good for obs to see splits being popular again, it's bad when they are pretty much one formula. The holding team back at the stand is probably the main issue for the 8v8 teams trying to fight em. I like the idea of the Splitadin Warrior to chase the split, saw that in obs, very entertaining. Hex Breaker sounds like a good idea too, I ran it on the B-surge for a while against diversion. Might chew up a bit much energy on the warrior as they hex them often.

JR · Feb 05, 2008, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

That was vs r300 and worse guilds tho ;o

Most of the people complaining about sin split on this forum are from sub r300 guilds, and that doesn't necessarily make it a bad play anyway. A defensive flagger and that warrior can fairly easily stop the three man sin split killing anything important in your base, and i'm fairly sure that wouldn't change if they were 'top 50' sins.

HolyHawk · Feb 05, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Sinsplit doesn't seem threatening to your team, vod, however, does. The games I have watched, most of the teams don't get killed by the sins, unless they do huge mistakes. Considering tournement play, the mesmers can't kill anything straight away, so bringing melee shutdown (a lot, given the baby-sit-monk) would work? Water templates sound the best to me, since you could have movement control, shutdown and damage at the same bar; shatterstone seems so attractive at first glance. Anyway, camping until vod, at least from what I saw, did not make much difference; I am not sure if it was bad execution, but npcs did not stay alive anyway, so I'd think that overwhelming their split right away would be the best choice.

As for build wars, anyone ever tried vow of silence dervishes? I mean, the sins need one hex for the combo, and mesmer can't do anything either? Wouldn't that open gaps for some kills, assisted by caster spike? Fit in sig of rejuvenation on the monk to clear casual damage, and just don't use it at vod. Just a thought; even vengeful was kanhei made its appearence in gvg, so why not? =P

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 05, 2008, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Most of the people complaining about sin split on this forum are from sub r300 guilds, and that doesn't necessarily make it a bad play anyway. A defensive flagger and that warrior can fairly easily stop the three man sin split killing anything important in your base, and i'm fairly sure that wouldn't change if they were 'top 50' sins.

How are a warrior (without KDs) and a flagger (usually a rit) going to stop 2 sins and a monk from killing shit?

You might be able to keep the boat alive but eventually you'll lose all outside NPCs and probably knights as well.

The split warrior might not be a bad template for splitting/skirmishes it's not gonna stop sins from killing shit, maybe it'll give you a better shot at beating the 2 sins + monk in a 3v3 skirmish though, but generally the sins will just snare you and collapse.

Akaraxle · Feb 05, 2008, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Against bad sineptitude teams (those not run by jpns or notorious people such as [apr]), I've found that dealing aggressively with the split team works well.

Most of the players on sins end up dying chewing more than they can take while pushing in your base, which leads to one of them dying or the monk running out of energy: the perfect chance for your ranger to cripple the shit out of them while the warrior scores kills. You then grab your own thief, if possible, and split in their base to clean some NPCs.

The problem with this approach is that it gets damn hard to run flags if they have "Doctor Snare" at the stand, and they'll get boosts. Another problem is if they send a mesmer with the split, in which case I wouldn't know what to do (haven't fought many sineptitudes recently).

tigros · Feb 05, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

As for build wars, anyone ever tried vow of silence dervishes?

combine it with Paragon's healing shouts

that's an interesting idea hehe

(still prone to hard interrupts, conditions and paragon shutdown though - but would prolly be a fun build to watch at work)