Curse

zergtrader · Feb 13, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

bsurge at 5 e is bad for guildwars

JR · Feb 13, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by zergtrader

bsurge at 5 e is bad for guildwars

Do you know how long a 5 second blind lasts with rune and shield reduction?

zergtrader · Feb 13, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Do you know how long a 5 second blind lasts with rune and shield reduction?

who cares how long it lasts if they land it on your evis/exe

JR · Feb 13, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by zergtrader

who cares how long it lasts if they land it on your evis/exe

Oh of course, active defense is bad! God forbid anyone need use timing or awareness to win games.

Lets keep the mindless blind spam instead, it's much better.

zergtrader · Feb 13, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Oh of course, active defense is bad! God forbid anyone need use timing or awareness to win games.

Lets keep the mindless blind spam instead, it's much better.

anychance you remember that start of nf where bsurge was at 5e and people ran it on mesmers even if you just spamed it the effect was still redicilous

moriz · Feb 13, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

that's because it lasted 7 seconds at 6 air. with the spread now being suggested, it will last.... 2 seconds?

zergtrader · Feb 13, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

that's because it lasted 7 seconds at 6 air. with the spread now being suggested, it will last.... 2 seconds?

dosent change the fact that you can run it on 2 dom mesmers since they dont really have any must have elites and blind spam the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out homever u want , just seems like the change to 5 e will put it back on dom mesmers for spamage especially since alot of euro guilds seem to be going back to the whole 2 tele wars /2 mes/1 ele or para and 3 monks euro spike template that ofcourse assuming that anet takes these suggestions seriously which i doubt they do

JR · Feb 13, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by zergtrader

dosent change the fact that you can run it on 2 dom mesmers since they dont really have any must have elites and blind spam the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out homever u want , just seems like the change to 5 e will put it back on dom mesmers for spamage especially since alot of euro guilds seem to be going back to the whole 2 tele wars /2 mes/1 ele or para and 3 monks euro spike template that ofcourse assuming that anet takes these suggestions seriously which i doubt they do

You are completely missing the point. The change to the skill discourages it's use as a spam skill, and encourages it in active play. The blind is reduced in duration by 3 seconds, and the recharge is increased by 2. This makes it a decent defense against spikes, and bad at spamming to passively reduce pressure.

Depending on breakpoints you would probably get a 3 second blind on a Mesmer at most. Add reductions and it's 2 seconds. 2 second blind on a 6 second recharge, oh noes! Still strong if you save it for screwing adren spikes (such as: omg eurospike), but definately not worth spamming.

Stop posting, start thinking.

DutchSmurf · Feb 13, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

You are completely missing the point. The change to the skill discourages it's use as a spam skill, and encourages it in active play. The blind is reduced in duration by 3 seconds, and the recharge is increased by 2. This makes it a decent defense against spikes, and bad at spamming to passively reduce pressure.

Isn't an elite that causes a 3 second blind (including reduction) completely worthless? Even against spikes I don't think it is worth taking anymore with a change like that. It does save a condition removal tho, 3 seconds you can just wait until it is gone. Making it last as short as suggested would also turn it into a reaction depended skill. Like some kind of interrupt. Meaning we get that ping discussion again. Would almost get to the point a mesmer with Lightning Javelin does a better job.
And besides, randomly spamming always happens. But I think we all know that with some skills (Diversion, blinding skills), a timed use is far better. As soon as the best use of a skill is spamming it on recharge, there is a problem. I don't think that is the case with any blinding skills, even if many people do use them that way.

Sha Noran · Feb 13, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Very good post Mitch. Tragically, I'm sure it will be largely ignored, as have been long and accurate posts on such topics in the past that have come from Ensign, etc. It's too bad that ANet is so afraid of listening to it's higher end player base when it comes to PvP balance.

There were two points I wanted to comment on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The problem with this whole situation however, is that there's way too much emphasis on NPCs, the deciding factor should however be the players themselves, it's retarded that right now a close match can be decided at VoD because a team has one more NPC and as such deals 15% more damage.

Exactly right. In the past, NPC advantage was just a fraction of any given GvG, and a good team was able to at least conceivably go for a Lord gank or try to take out the NPCs at the stand before the arrival of their own Lord. As it is now, any attempt at a gank is going to be nigh impossible when the opposing team decends upon you with their trillion damage Rodgort's Invoke and 200-damage-a-swing Dervish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

After the complete obliteration of Power Leak there's not much of a place for domination mesmers anymore outside of spike builds.

...

With PLeak gone mesmers are reduced to spamming glyph energy gale and shame/diverting monks and shattering enchantments on spikes, I think Dom mesmers were once one of the most interesting templates but now the only way to sorta pressure is to spam gale and bridge the gaps with shame and diversion.

I agree that the Mesmer's GvG role has steadily degenerated over time, however your exact notes on it are not exactly what I see as the biggest problem... though your suggested skill alterations make me think that you and I are on the same page, and you just worded your notes a little bit differently than I would have.

In my opinion, the Mesmer bar that most perfectly demonstrated what an incredible threat a skilled Mesmer could be is still the now defunct Prophecies Surge Mes bar that people were running back in the first WC.

[skill]gale[/skill][skill]energy surge[/skill][skill]energy burn[/skill][skill]blackout[/skill][skill]diversion[/skill][skill]shatter enchantment[/skill][skill]shame[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

I'm pretty sure that's correct. No other bar since has so perfectly given the opportunity for a skilled player to completely shut down an opponent indefinitely.

Yes, the ridiculous overnerf of PLeak was the last nail in the coffin of what was once a great aspect of high end PvP, which was energy denial. I don't know of anyone but the old school greats who even bother with low energy sets anymore; in the past, these were required equipment. I think it would be nice if some of the things that made this aspect of the game a legitimate threat could be brought back from the trash can Izzy threw them in, and many of Mitch's suggestions would be a nice start to that.

Andrew Patrick · Feb 13, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Great post! I passed it on to Izzy and James for their reading pleasure.

I agree with a lot of your points. Especially about the flagstand/base importance being shifted too far to the opposite side. I passed on all the feedback about the ViO/VoD and NPC issues (I really think the PvP community needs more abbreviations btw

) yesterday, but I went ahead and sent a follow up to include this thread.

Good stuff; thank you very much for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback.

Legally · Feb 13, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Andrew = Hero of the Day.

Joe Hostile · Feb 13, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Very good post Mitch. Tragically, I'm sure it will be largely ignored, as have been long and accurate posts on such topics in the past that have come from Ensign, etc. It's too bad that ANet is so afraid of listening to it's higher end player base when it comes to PvP balance.

"<[Last]Izzy|Work> Love your post mitch
<[Last]Izzy|Work> good stuff <3
<[Last]Izzy|Work> it's a lot of stuff I've been thinking

"

Be positive!

Zuranthium · Feb 13, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Only one thing I really disagree with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Why would you double run a flag when you can just run it with a character with a permanent 33% speed boost?

Because double running can put you at an advantage, regardless (if you take away this ViO crap). It was still happening relatively frequently. Nerfing DPS will help the cause too.

Fire Elems are the most interesting they've ever been and Flame Djinn's Haste plays into that. I really wouldn't want to see it nerfed. I don't find the template to be overpowered or degenerate at all.

~Z

Kaon · Feb 13, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Great post! I passed it on to Izzy and James for their reading pleasure.

I agree with a lot of your points. Especially about the flagstand/base importance being shifted too far to the opposite side. I passed on all the feedback about the ViO/VoD and NPC issues (I really think the PvP community needs more abbreviations btw

) yesterday, but I went ahead and sent a follow up to include this thread.

Good stuff; thank you very much for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback.

I have to say though, all of what he posted had been said many times before and has sometimes been argued for for months. Does that mean the the only way we can get something done is to constantly summarize everything that's baed?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 13, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Because double running can put you at an advantage, regardless (if you take away this ViO crap). It was still happening relatively frequently. Nerfing DPS will help the cause too.

It could be useful as was/is still used somewhat, but it's not really a good strategy anymore.

Quote:

Fire Elems are the most interesting they've ever been and Flame Djinn's Haste plays into that. I really wouldn't want to see it nerfed. I don't find the template to be overpowered or degenerate at all.

Flame Djinn's HAste is a stupidly overpowered speedboost, the existence of the skill is good and it's good for the template however it would still be useful when brought more in line with normal speedboosts.

Farin · Feb 13, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

I really like most of the suggestions, especially the point about extremeley ridiculous speed boosts. The only thing I'd keep the same is guardian with a longer rechare. I'm not sure about SoA at an 8s recharge, I think you would be able to keep it on 24/7 with an enchanting mod which would be pretty ridiculous if you are unable to interrupt.

Ancestor's needs a nerf really bad. Either make it 10e or do less damage. Splinter doesn't seem to be as bad with the new npcs but I wouldn't mind if it got hit a little.

frojack · Feb 13, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Awesome stuff. A very good summary.

B Surge: I was in favor of keeping this as it is and hitting the recharge to something like 12 (like how SoD got hit), but after thinking about it, I really like this change. Just enough relief from offense, and just enough danger for an elementalist to keep using it.

The Power Lock change is also a good one. A 12 second disable just feels weak for what the skill is (it's not exactly retarded like Magebane for example).

Feedback, E Burn/Surge: I've always liked the e-denial game, even if it could be exasperating when balanced badly. Is this something you'd like to bring back in some form? I'm more a fan of the conditional kind (Feedback, P Leak) than the E Burn kind. Or is this simply (in the case of the last 2) a slight nerf to the strength of the damage?

Ensign · Feb 13, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

VoD/ViO:

I agree with your suggestions in general; I'd like to elaborate on the removal of a few NPCs a bit as well. Adding all of those extra NPCs, plus the new staggered walking time, shifted split emphasis away from getting access to their flagger and threatening their boat and lord to simply farming some archers to set up a bigger VoD advantage. It put more value on splits as a VoD strategy but devalues them pre-VoD; similarly the amount of NPC support a team gets when they fall back into their base is pretty beastly, especially on those maps where there wasn't initially room for all those archers. As far as actual split tactics go, less NPCs would be better.

VoD coming more quickly isn't something I've had much issue with; it's pretty rarely that whatever strategy we're trying to pull off hasn't had any success or failure before VoD. The big difference is on rebounding from losing situations. A couple years ago, teams would fight for 10-15 minutes until one team would decisively won the stand, after which there was a lot of time to run around and try and make something happen on a split. That's not the case now, teams have to start changing gears and splitting pretty quickly if they're going to make any progress before VoD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Kills lose their relevance when you can res a person for free with full health and energy (death pact), sure it comes with a drawback but I think the ability to do so makes it much harder to turn games around.

Other way around, the strong hard resses make it much *easier* to turn a game around. When there weren't good hard resses in the game it was very difficult to turn a game around once your sigs were exhausted; you had this big run around party where you tried to threaten everything and leverage a boost out of it.

The issue with hard resses in my mind isn't that you can actually get them off (heaven forbid...), but the shape they bring people back in; Death Pact ressing people with full health and energy most of the time is what kills momentum with that skill, not that people can successfully cast it. If DPS resurrected the target with your health an no energy, it would be a completely different skill. A 3 second cast time wouldn't crush the skill, but it wouldn't address this problem either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Back in the day teams would push on the enemy's flagger to delay him and double run flags to create a favorable situation to make a strong 8v7 push or force boosts, I think a big part of why this doesn't happen (very often) anymore is (besides the reduced importance of boosts/morale) the fact that flaggers have superspeedboosts now.

I disagree with this. Yes flaggers are slightly faster when running now, but it's not that big a difference in overall transit times. If you are running a flag naked on Warrior's Isle it takes about 58 seconds from stand to flag and back to cap. With the old Windborne Speed you'd get that down to about 50-51 seconds depending on your spec. Everyone's favorite track star with Pious Haste clocks in at about 44 seconds. Now I won't say that doesn't matter at all, but I don't think that 6-7 seconds is why pushing flaggers has so much less value now. I think there are two much bigger issues.

The first one is that back in the Proph/Factions meta the flagger was a much more instrumental part of the flagstand team due to Heal Party support. Running a flag meant the team was down their party heal until you got back into range, and when you did you probably wanted to pump Heal Party several times before moving the flag. That ended up slowing down the flag significantly from your flagger stopping to cast 2c spells a lot, and it also gave putting pressure on the flagger a double purpose in denying the Heal Party as well. A big part of double running in a lethal match was giving your flagger more time to cast parties while someone else moved the flag in - simply double running to get up on flags was more pronounced when neither team was able to make any inroads offensively.

The other is how the character or runners have changed from being a party support character into being a more self-sufficient, split Monk character. Threatening to kill an E/Mo who is relying on Blinding Flash and snares to stay alive and get away is a whole lot different than pushing on a Monk who is preprotting himself as you get close. It's a lot harder to get free space flagger kills now. Also, snaring a flagger has been much more difficult in recent metagames, between Restore Condition pulling the cripshot, Water eles and hex snares being pushed out of the meta by autowin HEV, the game becoming a hostile place for 8v8 pressure in general from the strength of defensive spikes; and Aura of Stability stopping the only remaining thing that could slow down your runner. Runners right now can walk right through an opposing team now better than at any point in the game's history.

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't look at speed boosts; I just think that they are a very, very small part of the issue on this front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Ever since the release of Nightfall there's been a steady decline in pressure builds and they have largely been replaced by spike builds and dedicated splits (sinsplit).

As I mentioned earlier, most of the Nightfall pressure builds were really bad for the game - you had stuff like Grenth trains, or poopnthump, or hex overload builds in the first year or so after Nightfall came out. Heavy distributed pressure defense came out in response and stuck around, particularly the anti-pressure Paragon variations.

Not saying that some of those defensive skills don't need to be looked at - they certainly do, to make sure that you're not getting an undue amount of defense without a sufficient cost to your energy, characters, and builds - but I think we got a really clear sign of what the problem is with the Power Leak nerf. Mesmers have been reduced to Diversion spam and Power Leaking on recharge to provide any sort of shutdown for the most part; that's a far cry from the old pressure builds that relied much more heavily on proactive Mesmer shutdown (Surge, Burn, Gale, Blackout) to rip up defenses while your Warriors killed things.

Put another way, the most fun pressure builds to play as and against were dual dom builds that are barely an afterthought. Yes distributed passive defense is a problem, but I think that instead of evaluating it in a vacuum, all of this should be looked at in relation to how it interacts with Domination Mesmers and shutdown in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Active Defense:

I agree with your evaluation of small prots; Guardian is crazy good and was only really checked by Power Leak. I'm not sure if Guardian itself needs a nerf, or if more Mesmer interplay would be a better way to address it overall. Guardian is less valuable as an ability now from the raw number of physicals being used, but Monks are under so much less energy pressure these days that the cost of spamming it around is trivialized. Essentially, Guardian combos extraordinarily well with a defensive web and the partygon - if that is dealt with, the Guardian issue might go away on its own.

The other small prots could definitely use a buff, they simply do not justify a spot on a Monk bar right now. They haven't been overly valuable ever since the Conjure meta where you got a double reduction out of SH/SoA - though SoA still rocks at VoD.

Blind I don't think needs to be touched at all. It's actually in a really good place right now, between a shortish duration and the blind rune and insignia, plus the high cost of using it - plus counters are there if you really want to make it worthless. Gross blind spamming in an 8v8 fight isn't an issue with BSurge being too good, but more about the ever-decreasing interplay of shutdown. 6 months ago BSurge Eles were sat on hard by Dom Mesmers, that's much less the case now that Mesmers are locked in these dumb interrupt-your-diversion duels that has neither of them doing anything other than Shattering on spike.

The other thing I'd add is the dumb spike skills - Enchanter's Conundrum became a problem after going to a 1c, and Ancestor's Rage continues to be retarded for reasons I can only grasp at. Fast casting, big damage spike skills have been a problem through the history of the game; when I see stuff like Pious Assault receive a buff to become a fast attack, I have to wonder if that lesson will ever be learned.

Lodurr · Feb 13, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Change Blinding Surge to 5e 1..5 blind and recharge to 6s.

Change Blinding Flash to 10e 2..6 blind and recharge to 6s.

Those equate to a buff to Melandru dervs. I like this balance where it is right now. I see a little bit of everything--some water snare, some blinders, some wards--and it should stay like that. No reason to tweak it if it's not unbalanced now.