Curse

kosh · Feb 13, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

ok... from the top of my head.
since the we have atm 5 defensive layers (that being partygon,me/e warder and 3 aegis gurdian if your playing a 3 monk backline) why not just get rid of 2-3 of those.

make guardian and aegis breakpoint at 14 prot. so at lets say 11 prot you got about down to 5 sec and 33% block rate. i don't i have to disagree about nerfing it to 5. the long duration has made a good impact on the a skill that used to never sew day of light before that (if i remember correctly, correct me if im wrong).

same with aegis. at 11 prot make it to 33% block rate, so basically were kicking those 2 skills from the woh and possibly from the hb?
aegis and gurdian at their current state is not that bad. on on a prot monk. it just haveing 3 copies of those stack up to much. one aegis on a team is a good skill to have and to use wisely( same to any good skill but it will make guardian and aegis better timing usage wisely, better then aegis chain and 3 copies of guardian 90% of the time on)
and this is just a crazy idea but what about make the same with wards? block rate for melee breakpoint at 12 ( so still viable at fire eles etc but take some more att points in to it but make it an inviable/not worthy option on an non ele.)

so beside that partygon we kicked out 2 aegis, 2 guardians, and maybe melee unless you run a dedicated ele for for that.

hit me ^^.

Captain Robo · Feb 14, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Those equate to a buff to Melandru dervs. I like this balance where it is right now. I see a little bit of everything--some water snare, some blinders, some wards--and it should stay like that. No reason to tweak it if it's not unbalanced now.

Melandru Dervs are immune to blinds anyway... how do these changes make Meldervs better?

I don't see a problem with Blinding Surge as it is right now. I like the fix you posted: less effect for less cost, requiring more overall skill to use; but the current version of the skill is not in dire need of fixing. Blinding Flash, however... is in dire need of a change, and I think your suggestion is great.

Jaen · Feb 14, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Melandru Dervs are immune to blinds anyway... how do these changes make Meldervs better?

Because if blind becomes stronger, running blind immune alternatives in frontline become more attractive.

miles · Feb 14, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

ward against melee should get nerfed hard, as it is literally impossible to pressure through a melee that is constantly up. even if it is only up 1/2 of the time, the only type of play style that is viable is spiking while it is down. either rework the skill completly or take a huge shit on it

even if it did something like "for 5...19 seconds, you gain a 50% chance to block the next 1..6 attacks" it still might be doable just not take a huge shit on melee in general

ViO should spec with the amount of npc advantage you have, correlating with the + %dmg that is given. otherwise it should just gtfo

vod time should be pushed back, as one of the big problems i think with the sin split builds is that they can just gain such a massive npc advantage and have no intention of killing the guild lord before 18:00. before with old split builds it was almost a necessity to have 3 characters that can kill the guild lord, otherwise you could wipe a base by 15, and than not have anything left to accomplish, similar to what sin split now is doing.

to the kid who was argueing with mitch about b surge... lmfao

everything else is a bit of a moot point tbh

Sneaky Mcsneaksneak · Feb 14, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

My hat is off to you, Mitch. The only way that a person could argue with this post is if they had no idea what was going on in GvG at all.
Now if we could just get some of the skill balances to actually happen... we would have something.

Captain Robo · Feb 14, 2008, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Because if blind becomes stronger, running blind immune alternatives in frontline become more attractive.

Mitch's fix doesn't make blind stronger, he made blinds more tactical. I'd think that getting away from the spamming-blinding-surge play style would actually lessen the need for mel dervs.

Symbol · Feb 14, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Regarding speedboosts, FDH and SDH aren't really that overpowered, since you have to stop and cast them. For example.

FDH at 15 spec:
20 seconds up
1.5 seconds downtime (cast + aftercast)
Effective speedboost of 23.7%
with enchanting mod: 25.2%

Compare this to sprint/EC at 13str:
13 sec duration
20 sec recharge
Effective speed boost 16.25%

or

Dash
3 sec duration
8 sec recharge
Effective speed boost 18.75%

FDH will get you there maybe 8% faster than sprint, and less for dash. No big deal, IMO.

SDH is better than both, but it has a significant drawback. It's really only pious on a rit that's out of line, since you get a full 33% boost and weapon spells aren't enchants so the downside doesn't matter much.

C2K · Feb 14, 2008, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Mitch's fix doesn't make blind stronger, he made blinds more tactical. I'd think that getting away from the spamming-blinding-surge play style would actually lessen the need for mel dervs.

It also kills the need for monks to remove blind. I like blind where it is. Like any condition, its kept in check by the fact it is a condition and that conditions are one of the easiest mechanics to remove. Add in that there is a shield mod that reduces duration, its something that is easily handled.

As for Ward against Melee, its not solely the problem, but part of a larger problem. By its self, you can easily have warriors pressure thru it. But when you add in Guardian, SoD, <insert random blocking skill> it all stacks up against your frontliners. Its one weakness is its stationary, and you can try to position yourself to where you can avoid WaM. It really all depends on the skill level of teams in battle.

lutz · Feb 14, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Another thing that wasn't addressed are two skills that are incredibly imbalanced:

Pious Assault
This allows for unskilled players to essentially create a spike build that is nearly impossible to prot, and requires extreme red-baring to counter. Many teams have been running Avatar of Balthazar with Chilling Victory and Pious Assault, coupled with Grenth's Aura and Shatter Enchantment (and even Mirror of Disenchantment on the Paragon!) This allows for THREE enchant removals - and gives more than enough damage to basically spike any target they want. Pious Assault needs to NOT remove that enchantment and be put in line with other dervish skills. At this point it's incredibly imbalanced and stupid - it's pretty much a staple on any dervish bar now.

Stonesoul Strike/Holy Strike
See: [Goth]. The most incredibly stupid spike ever created - unprottable (goes under SB) and provides incredible defense and stale games. Simple solution: Make all the damage in one packet, not two.

Problem. · Feb 14, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Stonesoul Strike/Holy Strike
See: [Goth]. The most incredibly stupid spike ever created - unprottable (goes under SB) and provides incredible defense and stale games. Simple solution: Make all the damage in one packet, not two.

You can easily beat [Goth] through a series of Splitting/Snare & Collapsing the entire game. They usually send their main monks back to defend, if you overcompensate with offense in their base. This is what you want them to do, because it means, their "spike" team is full of the "fake" monks and will lack tons if healing. If you can effectively snare and collapse, you will wipe that team. It is important to remember that you really aren't going to kill their defensive reaction to your split and that you cannot allow them to boost once you have DP of their team. Of course, this is probably a lot easier on maps like Druids/Frozen. Have fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The other thing I'd add is the dumb spike skills - Enchanter's Conundrum became a problem after going to a 1c,

It really is a problem. It gives mesmers tons of damage. EC + SD can basically solo a frenzied warrior, and it splits really well b/c of the raw damage it generates. Something needs to be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miles

ViO should spec with the amount of npc advantage you have, correlating with the + %dmg that is given. otherwise it should just gtfo

I think the word you're looking for is scale, not spec, but i still got your point. I'd have to agree, this would be the best way to implement ViO, if its to continue to stay.

Captain Robo · Feb 14, 2008, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Stonesoul Strike/Holy Strike
See: [Goth]. The most incredibly stupid spike ever created - unprottable (goes under SB) and provides incredible defense and stale games. Simple solution: Make all the damage in one packet, not two.

Why does everyone feel the need to justify themselves about playing against this build? Yes, thank you, we know it's cheap and 100% gay, but it works. It's a game and we play to win, and believe me, we get a lot of shit for running that build. Sure, it sucks to lose to spike builds, but people wouldn't run them if they didn't have a good chance to win. This build tends to beat inexperienced players, or builds ill-suited for the spike matchup, and once we're high enough on the ladder, we'll play balanced. If you have a problem with that, its too damn bad. Learn to beat the build, and it won't be a problem; but for chrissakes, quit the whining.

People make generalizations about us in attempt to rationalize why they lose to a build like this. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't like this build, and I really would like to see us play more balanced. I'm sorry if you don't like this build, but we're not going to stop playing it.

Quote:

You can easily beat [Goth] through a series of Splitting/Snare & Collapsing the entire game. They usually send their main monks back to defend, if you overcompensate with offense in their base. This is what you want them to do, because it means, their "spike" team is full of the "fake" monks and will lack tons if healing. If you can effectively snare and collapse, you will wipe that team. It is important to remember that you really aren't going to kill their defensive reaction to your split and that you cannot allow them to boost once you have DP of their team. Of course, this is probably a lot easier on maps like Druids/Frozen. Have fun.

I will tell you right now, this is exactly how to beat that build. I don't get an opportunity to play too much with the guild these days, but this is exactly what they've done in every match I've seen. Listen well to Problem if you think Gothspike is just that brokenly awful.

yesitsrob · Feb 14, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

If you lose to Goth spike quite honestly you deserve to lose because the build is absolutely terrible and they are bad.

I Angra I · Feb 14, 2008, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Completely agree with all the points, especially hard resses/speed buffs affecting flags/morale, and fixing ViO/VoD.

Death Pact Signet definitely needs a longer cast time, and not give 100% of current health/energy. Imo it's the one single hard res that has made morale boosts and recharging sigs not nearly as important anymore, and has even made games stretch out longer because it so easily can prevent teamwipes a lot of the time.

I think Flesh could use at least some sort of recharge time also, even if it's only a few seconds.

HolyHawk · Feb 14, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I like all of the sugestions, especially blinding surge. The farthest it could from air attunement, the better, because you will have tactical play instead of pure spikes or spam bots. I still think ancestor's needs to be toned down, and ward against melee could be reworked to prevent X number of attacks.

deya · Feb 14, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I'll sign some parts of Ensigns post --> Active skills & Spiking skills. Great stuffz!

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 14, 2008, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Other way around, the strong hard resses make it much *easier* to turn a game around. When there weren't good hard resses in the game it was very difficult to turn a game around once your sigs were exhausted; you had this big run around party where you tried to threaten everything and leverage a boost out of it.

The issue with hard resses in my mind isn't that you can actually get them off (heaven forbid...), but the shape they bring people back in; Death Pact ressing people with full health and energy most of the time is what kills momentum with that skill, not that people can successfully cast it. If DPS resurrected the target with your health an no energy, it would be a completely different skill. A 3 second cast time wouldn't crush the skill, but it wouldn't address this problem either.

You misunderstood me (or maybe I was unclear), I think hard rezzes are awesome, but I think it's a problem when a hard res is better than a res sig.

Problem hard rezzes: DPS, Glyph Sac+Chant

Good hard rezzes: Flesh, Sig Return, Resurrect

Quote:

I disagree with this. Yes flaggers are slightly faster when running now, but it's not that big a difference in overall transit times. If you are running a flag naked on Warrior's Isle it takes about 58 seconds from stand to flag and back to cap. With the old Windborne Speed you'd get that down to about 50-51 seconds depending on your spec. Everyone's favorite track star with Pious Haste clocks in at about 44 seconds.

It might not be that much different in flagging speed, but when a flagger can outrun a warrior WHILE he's carrying the flag then I'd say it's a problem.

I don't really have a problem with stuff like Dash, it's a strong skill but it gives you small bursts of uberspeed which promote playerskill as you can time it to better dodge cripshots/avoid warriors but when you have a permanent 33% speedboost for little to none attribute investment I'd say its a problem.

Quote:

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't look at speed boosts; I just think that they are a very, very small part of the issue on this front.

It is an easy to fix issue though.

Quote:

Blind I don't think needs to be touched at all. It's actually in a really good place right now, between a shortish duration and the blind rune and insignia, plus the high cost of using it - plus counters are there if you really want to make it worthless. Gross blind spamming in an 8v8 fight isn't an issue with BSurge being too good, but more about the ever-decreasing interplay of shutdown. 6 months ago BSurge Eles were sat on hard by Dom Mesmers, that's much less the case now that Mesmers are locked in these dumb interrupt-your-diversion duels that has neither of them doing anything other than Shattering on spike.

Maybe you're right, I just don't like how blind isnt the finesse skill it used to be anymore, at the stand anyway.

And I have nfi who Goth is or why anyone would care about them, but can we stop talking about it in this thread?

Targuil · Feb 14, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Resurrect

Sure about that?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 14, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targuil

Sure about that?

By good I meant good for the game, a hard res shouldn't bring someone back with full health and a considerable amount of energy.

Res sigs should always be better than hard rezzes.

Captain Robo · Feb 14, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

The more I think about it, it seems like your change to Blinding Surge brings it more in line with skills like Clumsiness and Ineptitude, except its lower damage is offset by the effects of Blinding Surge being unconditional.

Looking at it that way, I can't really decide if it's a good or bad thing. Clumsiness and Ineptitude were only imbalanced because of their duration and the stupid amounts of damage they punished melee classes for. This won't do as much damage, but it will be more effective at stopping melee.

Quote:

Maybe you're right, I just don't like how blind isnt the finesse skill it used to be anymore, at the stand anyway.

I know what you mean. Blinding Surge really hit its stride during the Eurospike days, and could almost singlehandedly shut that build down on spikes. Nowadays it's spammed mindlessly.

Yue · Feb 14, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Gud post.

Though I would keep blinds the way they are right now.