Curse

Numa Pompilius · Feb 13, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Being a PvE player my support is probably a kiss of death, but from my PvE-centric PoV all the suggestions of the OP seem good, wholesome, and made of chocolate.

/signed.

Elrodien · Feb 13, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Nice summarisation of the debates currently on-going on the boards and if Andrew reads anything he should read this and shove it in Izzy's face.

I would disagree on pleak having 15 @ 14 Dom but thats small fish really, everything else seems fine - particularly the blind changes (BFlash is way over-priced imo).

Any changes that allow gvgers choices (ie whether to run split, spike , pressure or a mix of three) are all good as opposed to what we have currently i.e. we are forced to run a certain build or certain templates to have any chance of winning a game.

Nice work

Vaga · Feb 13, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The Motigon/Partygon is by far the most broken. Secondary to that I only see Defensive Anthem Paragons being used for passive defense, and they aren't amazing. Certainly nobody in their right mind would take them over a Partygon.

Fix the clearly broken stuff first, then look at the things that might need tweaking.

You're trying to promote active defense right? but paragons avoid practically all forms of active defense. So if you nerfed all forms of passive defense today so that there's no aegis/shields up etc... paragons will basically do max damage all the time switching targets everytime you guardian the guy they're attacking.

So Mitch want's passive defense toned town, well nerfing paragon damage has to go hand in hand with this.

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I don't think that is possible to do without it either resulting in buildwars or in only 1 build. Wouldn't know how that balanced build is supposed to look then either.

They can basically do this by making the skills that take skill to use the strongest in the game. Although that would probably mean rits/paras/dervs/sins/necros would never see play since 99% of their skills don't take any skill to use. Otherwise there can be a compromise like when DF's build was the strongest all of the characters took skill to play just a couple took a lot less than others (most recent example).

Ego · Feb 13, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

/signed, and I couldn't agree more.

(Blinds are stupid! Remove them from the game instead!

(Kill me later Aka.))

pah01 · Feb 13, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

BTW signed Mitch :P

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 13, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beoishere

The skills don't need changed as much as VoD does.

100% Agreed.

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Change VoD so that NPCs aside from Guild Lord do not move.

Interesting idea, I like it quite a lot, worth trying out but I doubt it'll ever happen.

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The changes made recently to the VoD SKILL are fantastic and should stay like that, but remove ViO from the game entirely, and fire whoever from Arena net came up with that idea.

I assume you're talking about the removal of health reduction and the damage change to 15% down from 25%? If you are then I agree completely.

The increased NPC damage is retarded though.

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Revert number of NPCs back to old amount and change Body Guards back to 2, removing Knights obviously.

Don't know if this would really matter, the reduction of # of NPCs is something that HAS to happen though, I don't think I've heard anyone that's remotely involved with competitive PvP that's against this.

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When VoD hits, at 20 minutes, Guild Lord -runs- to the stand (Makes it there in about 10-15 seconds) all other NPCs don't move.

Interesting for sure, I'm not sure about the 'running' but giving him a speedboost of 25-33% would be fine.

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Guild Lord does as much Damage as 2 warriors, can move around like the Ghostly but doesn't have any skills. (Can't follow people like Ghostly though)

I'd like to see the 2 lords duking it out at the flagstand at VoD with no NPCs involved and having each other as priority targets.

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This will fix alot of things if you ask me, no more "npc advantage" or "winning flag stand" after VoD. It will also fix alot of the splitting builds since they thrive on NPC advantage, and lets face it, the game is way more fun 8v8.

GvG would go back to what it was before. 8v8 forces player skill and actually punishes errors instead of just shrugging them off and retrying later.

I don't agree with all of this, 8v8 isn't more fun per se but I think there would still be enough reason to split/push flaggers if this can be advantageous compared to fighting straight up 8v8.

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Buff ALL of the Assassin attack elites, buff leads, nerf shadowsteps (all of them!)

This doesn't really mean anything without proper suggestions etc, but I do agree with moving away from teleporting instagib sins.

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and COMPLETELY revamp the Paragon class. Needs so many changes I can't even be bothered to list them all.

Paragons are an interesting concept gone horribly wrong, I think they were largely overlooked in the betas because everyone was running around with godmode dervishes, the result is spears having way too much base damage and most shouts/chants being either too good or not good enough.

JR · Feb 13, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Quote:

Change VoD so that NPCs aside from Guild Lord do not move.

Interesting idea, I like it quite a lot, worth trying out but I doubt it'll ever happen.

Interesting idea indeed, but I think it removes far too much of the incentive for splitting. It basically puts you in a position where you only split if you think you can kill the Guild Lord, and if you fail to do so before VoD then you have wasted that effort.

That is ignoring using a split to stall a flagger, but I think that is slightly secondary.

I also compeltely disagree with the line of thought that somehow 8v8 play takes more skill than split play. They are different styles and both should be viable, if anything I would say split play takes more thought and is generally (excepting sin split) healthy for the game. It gives you a method to play around being out-built or countered.

Lordhelmos · Feb 13, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

Nice summarisation of the debates currently on-going on the boards and if Andrew reads anything he should read this and shove it in Izzy's face.

I would disagree on pleak having 15 @ 14 Dom but thats small fish really, everything else seems fine - particularly the blind changes (BFlash is way over-priced imo).

Any changes that allow gvgers choices (ie whether to run split, spike , pressure or a mix of three) are all good as opposed to what we have currently i.e. we are forced to run a certain build or certain templates to have any chance of winning a game.

Nice work

I think the party healing revamp was a result of Andrew shoving it in Izzy's face after getting obliterated on these forums for a week straight.

That and the NPC destruction + ViO at VoD reminds me of Cloverfield. I liked the old VoD, change it back and just keep it so NPCs don't ball. They have been pretty good about AoE after the update btw.

Shendaar · Feb 13, 2008, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Great post. I am especially in favor of the Guardian nerf as I believe it is way too good of a skill. A 4 or 5 seconds recharge like listed above would probably be enough.

Draak · Feb 13, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Agreed.

As for SoR, it would be a good idea to have a 2s cast time yes, but with that I would keep the recharge of 15s or if the recharge is 10s, then I would slightly reduce the healing to something like it was before. Because we all know that DA paragons were still used even with 2s DA as if it didnt affect them because of other blocking in the game (aegis, shields up).

As for weakness, I would also suggest some sort of a buff. For instance, like a -15% slower moving. That would bring new aspects in the game. It could be used for defense, like snaring the warriors - but in the same time they could still use a speedbuff to run equally fast as you. That would cause them to prejudge when to switch out of the speed stance.
For offense, weakness could then be applied on midline and backline chars, so the casters couldnt kite that good anymore. But then again, skills like Enfeebling blood would act like a water hex.

Beoishere · Feb 13, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Isn't that called Cripple?

guild deputy · Feb 13, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

great most but my advice for VoD/ViO is:

remove ViO

VoD:

make it like mitch said like it was before the update but get rid of the additional health loss on npcs at VoD, this way u can actually heal them properly against splinter weapon. Cause in my opinion taking away the health penalty is a way to "nerf" splinter without actually making it suck in PvE.

Let the NPC deal 15-20% more damage not 25% at the start of VoD, and get rid of the additial 5% damage each minute.

This way NPC will remain imporatant and splitting is still a good trategy.

LightningHell · Feb 13, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beoishere

The problem with the game is that so many skills are shitty, no one wants to even take the time to test them to see if there was any way they could be viable.

Anet needs to stop nerfiing, and start buffing.

When discussing a build vent should be like this "I see lots of Melee builds on Obs, maybe we should run some more melee defence" and then you go into the game vs a hex team and have a hard time. That's what I expected from GW, but with only a handfull of skills being viable at any given time, people just run the build that they see win.

I kinda disagree with this. I rather see a few select skills that promote player skill see play, instead of everything being perfectly 'balanced' and degenerate builds everywhere.

Aside from that, Build Wars is, I believe, what most PvPers don't want. Build selection should have a limited impact on the game - speccing for antimelee then getting owned by hexes shouldn't happen, ideally.

Besides, ANet buffs more than they nerf. It's just that most of the buffs are pretty inconsequential.

JR · Feb 13, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Not directing this at anyone inparticular, but it's rather sad to see such a comprehensive and poignant thread being watered down by the random babblings of people who just want to put their 2c in.

Not that discussion is a bad thing by any means, but please lets try and watch the signal/noise ratio. Nobody has yet to improve or correct any of Mitch's points, and nothing new has been added.

Lorekeeper · Feb 13, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I think the five most important changes are the following

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

1) Remove ViO completely and go back to the old VoD minus the health reduction (maybe keep the bonus damage from NPCs against other NPCs).

2) Move VoD back to 20/25 minutes to give teams more time to pull off strategies.

3) Nerf hardrezzes (stuff like flesh is fine but uber hardrezzes, mainly DPS, are too powerful).

4) Nerf superspeedboosts across the board, e.g. Pious Haste 25% speed 8 second recharge, Flame Djinn's Haste 25% speed shorter duration, Storm Djinn's Haste 25% speed shorter duration, etc. (possibly buff some other speedboosts like sprint that could encourage double flagging).

They could even cause pious haste to remove weapon spells when its ends... i dont think there should be parity between non-elite warrior speed buffs and non-elite elementalist speed buffs, they were ''relatively equal'' in the past with windborne speed and armour of mist but i just think that the whole issue surrounding flag running is more about the robustness of flaggers rather than the speed at which running now occurs. But i guess it would be interesting to slow down flag running and see what impact that has on the stand fight and the impact of morale boosts.

Unused hard rezzes need to give more energy to those who get rezzed but not as much as 50% of maximum. DPS can prevent chain monk kills and full team wipes because of its potential to give monks back their full energy on rez. Id suggest the following.

* Death pact signet - resurrect target party member with 50% of their maximum health and energy, for 60 seconds, if target ally dies you die to.

* Flesh of my Flesh - slightly increase percentage of energy party member resurrects with.

* Restore life - make half casting range and lower health and energy given to resurrected party member accordingly.

* Resurrection chant - make full cast range reduce recharge to 10seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

5) Nerf glyph lesser energy to 5..15 or make it so you get the energy refunded after finishing a cast on it.

This alone will have a massive impact i think. I think a nerf to the lower end of the spec is what is needed, to lower the benefit from using gole on ele secondaries... i think that it should remain useful for elementalists to access 25 energy skills apart from glyph energy. 5e at 0 spec would be idea... a monk cancel casting aegis 3-4 times will lose 15-20e from doing so, and will not be able to hide in a low set to fuel it. It would probably be viable to cancel cast it only 2 times, and a fast cast is not guaranteed within those 2 casts anyway. Mesmers with ward melee stand to lose 10 energy each time they cancel cast their wards but with their fast cast they dont generally need to do that so often... they still stand to lose 10 energy every time they use the ward anyway which is good. Monks would lose 5 energy for aegis... but given the power of aegis i think that would be worth it. Hitting gole in that way would probably require heal party to be buffed to 10e, if its cast time is to be increased to 2 seconds i dont think its healing power should be reduced, but rather increased because of the cost of cancel casting to get the fast cast (assuming its at the stand). Then again, if LoD gets buffed down to 7-8s recharge debate about heal party would be unnecessary... especially with PwK on rit runners and +3 mending refrain being so easily specced on paragons (i think they should increase the attribute cost for reaching that +3 mark... at 12 motivation).

Removing the cancel cast benefit of gole would probably need to be done in isolation of other minor or major skill tweaks, especially with regards to your suggestion to buff edenial. Start with the cancel cast nerf... evaluate that impact then consider further changes... the first suggested nerf would have less of a drastic impact and therefore you could probably get away with packing in extra skill changes.

Captain Robo · Feb 13, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

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Paragons are an interesting concept gone horribly wrong, I think they were largely overlooked in the betas because everyone was running around with godmode dervishes, the result is spears having way too much base damage and most shouts/chants being either too good or not good enough.

I think the power of spear damage was well showcased with the R/P builds that DOMINATED gvg on those beta weekends. I remember this quite well. That lead to the expertise nerf for shouts... instead of (or in conjunction with) spear damage.

Every Paragon mechanic, right now up to Song of Restoration has just been stupid powerful. First there were dual paragon midlines, with one paragon being a battery-turret that made your monks invincible. Then Incoming!, then DA... list goes on.

I refuse to believe Anet simply overlooked the problems with this class, as they STILL enable a degenerate metagame wherever they are used. It's hard to believe that Paragons were, at one point, even MORE ridiculous than they are now. That's just shoddy caretaking on Anet's behalf.