Curse

pah01 · Feb 16, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

GVG. Here is how I would do it.

Good Things
Let me be frank, Arenanet as a company you have produced a great game that has kept me interested for a long time and I think that it is the most unique game I have ever played.

Some of your updates have been absolutely awesome. The update before the release of Nightfall which made PVP characters equal with PVE ones. The introduction of reconnects and observer mode were two of the other "best of all time" updates.

Running two world championships which I eagerly watched and awaited gave my friends and I some of the most fun times in game. Some of the matches I have seen were nailbiting and some even had me as tense as when I was actually playing so intent was I on not missing the first important kill going through and then watching a match turn around.

Thanks to Andrew
I also want to say Thank you to Andrew for me and from those people who I talk to that are more interested in the game and the forums due to your public presence here. If you have noticed recently there is an increase in decent discussion here.

Bad Things
On the other side of the coin you have done things that has hindered the gold star in your crown. And before I detail what I would do right now in a decision-making position I want to say what I think have been the five worst things in that have affected GVG.

1. Undeveloped new classes. Especially from a PVP point of view. The new factions/Nightfall classes are fine from a PVE standpoint and don't really affect balance in that area too much. However they are all game-breaking in their elements.

The problem areas are teleporting, Unremovable chants and weapon spells [many of them being too good], paragon DPS, Avatars of Godmode.
I think an understanding of this post is important. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...26&postcount=1

2. Serious Skill Issues. Serious Problems with skill balance need to be addressed much quicker. Things like energizing finale should have been fixed with the same rapidity of the signet of midnight bug which killed off the guildlord.

3. Automated Tournaments. They are a great Idea for Herobattles. These tournaments are the reason why you have been forced to change the duration of GVG battles and this is bad. The tournament setting needs to be changed to suit the format not the other way around.

4. Changes in Format. Using a change in game mechanics to try and solve a problem rather than addressing the problem at its root which is the actual skill-balance of the game with victory is ours.

---------------------

Problem 1: Competitive Play.

I disagree with Kaon about the Golden Age on GVG. It was the three seasons leading up-to the GWFC and the GWFC itself. These seasons were easily the most interesting time to be observing and playing GVG.

I am not asking for a GWWC again but I am asking to do away with the AT's for GVG. The automated tournament system is however really suited to Hero battles so it is not a complete loss.

A good format for competitive GVG would be four seasons a year of nine weeks each for a ladder component and then to close the season with two weekends for playoffs. Ladders can close on a Thursday or a Wednesday evening so that teams can prepare for the weekend. I think the playoff weekends would be interesting with thirty two teams competing too.

Real world prizes need only be offered for the top 3 teams or so and reserve the capes as well for those three which would restore the prestige of that award too.

And it wouldn't be so bad to gain reward points on the open ladder seasons to
compensate for losing the points from AT's. [MINOR ISSUE]

This would probably leave about ten or so weeks of down time from serious play before ladder resets.

Problem 2: Solving the Ninja, Godmode, Loudmouthed and Spiritual problem.

Remove these from competitive GVG, at least for one season. Just see what happens to play. Surely you have wondered how the game would play out with just core skills now. Of course keep the skills from those campaigns. If anything you would learn from it.

Problem 3: Format problem.

I am not against VOD being almost as early as it is now. I have seen teams break from mistakes between twenty and thirty but it really didn't happen that much. Let me say that I am happy with VOD happening at twenty minutes.

However I do not think that there should only be two minutes between VOD and guild lord walking out. This needs to go back to five because some of the greatest Games have been changed by last minute strategies actually working.

I would change back VOD to the old 25% increase in damage done equally but I would be off the opinion that almost all issues with VOD have now been solved via problem 2 having previously been solved and the update that affected archer movement recently.

Problem 4: Current Skill Issues

Glpyph of Lesser - needs to be 5 at zero spec. This one change is all I would be willing to make if you were actually going to implement the solution to problem 2. Let the game settle back into GLORY!!

Joe

Songbringer · Feb 16, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

/agree with everything(even though i love gole in its current form it is imba)

JR · Feb 16, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

This is like Mitch's thread without the accuracy. I'm not sure why you bothered.

Greedy Gus · Feb 16, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

This is like Mitch's thread without the accuracy. I'm not sure why you bothered.

It's pretty much completely different in scope. Mitch's thread was about pushing the worst parts of the status quo in the right direction, and was thankfully listened to when put together nicely. This thread seems to be about why the status quo isn't as good as the game used to be. If anything, it's quite accurate but lacks detail.

twicky_kid · Feb 16, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I've been saying for about 2 years now they only way to truely balance the game and keep the game interesting and fun is to restrict the skills and classes that can used during the season. Have a season of core + factions, core only, core + NF, and a anything goes season. To take it a little further if you wanted to is to take out 2 of the core professions for NF or Factions classes. That would really shake things up.

I do think that 9 week seasons are too long. Unfortunately there is no way to have a short season ladder and be fair. With ATs you don't have to grind the ladder to be competitive but it takes hours out of your day at specific times. Scheduling conflicts are a huge problem with AT.

If we go back to the old ladder system it'll be a grind fest again. What that will do cut guilds out that can't sit and play for hours every single day.

Ladder and AT have a huge problem due to the amount of time you have to dedicate every day. A system of win/loss ratio might be best.

erk · Feb 17, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

I am not a fan of the current AT system, the fact that you can forfeit a game without rating penalty is being exploited.

pah01 · Feb 17, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

It's pretty much completely different in scope. Mitch's thread was about pushing the worst parts of the status quo in the right direction, and was thankfully listened to when put together nicely. This thread seems to be about why the status quo isn't as good as the game used to be. If anything, it's quite accurate but lacks detail.

In short JR

You are a dick

Relambrien · Feb 17, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

In short JR

You are a dick

Wrong tab. You want the one titled "Team Quitter."

(ps haha, lol, joke)

pah01 · Feb 17, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Lol all I can say is that Gus is right.

I would be on exactly the same page as Mitch and I think his skill balances are markedly superior to izzy and co's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOups.

However I think I am correct to blame much of GVG's problems on the bad idea that is the AT system. It may suit hero battlers but it doesn't suit GVG.

JR is still a twat tho.

Joe

Captain Robo · Feb 17, 2008, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Generalizations do not necessarily mean a lack of accuracy. I'd agree with pretty much everything the OP stated, but an elaboration couldn't hurt. Nothing stated here was essentially controversial, nor was it really anything new.

It appears that the sentiments of the pvp community are only taken seriously when they are written concisely and prepped up in a nice little package (complete with a big red bow) for the devs to read (notice how much of the changes in the latest update were 'coincidentally' similar to the ones Mitch outlined? (Yet at the same time, the latest update, like every other update, was made of fail... just slightly less fail than usual)). I guess the OP was attempting to continue this trend.

At any rate, I'll be the first to say that being a moderator kiss-ass is retarded, but open flaming like that is out of the question, especially if you're trying to make a point.

Tamuril elansar · Feb 17, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

good thread and good player.

Andrew should listen to people with more GvG experience instead of listening to his fellow Anet workers.

Kaon · Feb 17, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10

WTB 30k rating ladder OR ladder reset. With the 3months activity requirement it serves no purpose anymore for history anyway.

JR · Feb 17, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

In short JR

You are a dick

I'm sorry if you feel a little butthurt by my comment, but that's not my problem. Your thread is nothing but a half decent summary of well known issues, with unrealistic solutions and questionable opinion.

Guild Wars (1) is never going to have another championship. They will never remove four classes from the competitive game. There is not the playerbase left to prevent long term ladder based seasons from being entirely stagnant and boring. GvG is a much better place without the focus just being on those +2s and -2s.

Your guild isn't even on the GvG ladder, which begs the question as to if you have even played in an AT recently, let alone played competitively. I even went so far as to check the Hero Battle ladder, and your listed character name doesn't appear there either.

Class issues, balance issues and VoD issues have all been covered far more comprehensively and accurately in other recent threads.

Allanon754 · Feb 17, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I agree with everything you said pah01... I really think that GvG has been bad lately. They have basically changed the focus from the stand to the NPC's... because with ViO (Victory is Ours) and VoD being what they are... with an NPC adv you are guaranteed a win.

I really wonder sometimes whether or not A.net even watches the high ranking matches anymore with some of the updates they put out.

I also agree with the overpowered new classes... shadowstepping is in my mind extremely imba as well as dervish forms and their damage, etc. I really wish they would have put more thought into them.

erk · Feb 17, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allanon754

I agree with everything you said pah01... I really think that GvG has been bad lately. They have basically changed the focus from the stand to the NPC's... because with ViO (Victory is Ours) and VoD being what they are... with an NPC adv you are guaranteed a win.

I really wonder sometimes whether or not A.net even watches the high ranking matches anymore with some of the updates they put out.

I also agree with the overpowered new classes... shadowstepping is in my mind extremely imba as well as dervish forms and their damage, etc. I really wish they would have put more thought into them.

I wouldn't be too harsh, some of the guys from A.net play GvG, Andrew on these forums plays a bit, and Izzy when he is bored. One thing you have to remember is A.net tends to take most GvG skill/game advice from the guilds right at the top of the GvG ladder, they are highly experienced players, but those guilds have their own agenda, mostly AT driven, hence they don't represent quite the viewpoint from majority of A.net paying GvG customers. So depending on what type of GvG you are after, the updates may be good or bad for you. At least there are some updates, they could just ignore GW and work on GW2 if they wanted to!

TheOneMephisto · Feb 17, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I wouldn't be too harsh, some of the guys from A.net play GvG, Andrew on these forums plays a bit, and Izzy when he is bored. One thing you have to remember is A.net tends to take most GvG skill/game advice from the guilds right at the top of the GvG ladder, they are highly experienced players, but those guilds have their own agenda, mostly AT driven, hence they don't represent quite the viewpoint from majority of A.net paying GvG customers. So depending on what type of GvG you are after, the updates may be good or bad for you. At least there are some updates, they could just ignore GW and work on GW2 if they wanted to!

Balancing should be based on the high end, because that's where balance really comes into play. If there's something degenerate that isn't affecting the high end then ofc it should be nerfed, but for most things the developers SHOULD focus on the top-tier players, not only because that's where the impact is most felt, but also because those players generally have the best understanding of the game, hence why they're at the top.

It's like how Blizzard works it. Balance the very top level competitive play first, then let that drive the game.

Takida · Feb 17, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

It's like how Blizzard works it. Balance the very top level competitive play first, then let that drive the game.

Now anet wont do it. cause u said that!

erk · Feb 18, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Balancing should be based on the high end, because that's where balance really comes into play. If there's something degenerate that isn't affecting the high end then ofc it should be nerfed, but for most things the developers SHOULD focus on the top-tier players, not only because that's where the impact is most felt, but also because those players generally have the best understanding of the game, hence why they're at the top.

It's like how Blizzard works it. Balance the very top level competitive play first, then let that drive the game.

Just for interest sake, any idea how many of the European top-tier players get consulted? After all they represent the vast majority of the top GvG guilds.

pah01 · Feb 18, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I'm sorry if you feel a little butthurt by my comment, but that's not my problem. Your thread is nothing but a half decent summary of well known issues, with unrealistic solutions and questionable opinion.

The only reason it is unrealistic is that Anet is full of fail since nightfall release. I think that you are giving yourself butthurt by the rest of your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Guild Wars (1) is never going to have another championship. They will never remove four classes from the competitive game. There is not the playerbase left to prevent long term ladder based seasons from being entirely stagnant and boring. GvG is a much better place without the focus just being on those +2s and -2s.

Retard. If competitive GVG was based around short ladder seasons finishing up with playoffs one would assume the ELO rating would go back to where it was, with a K value of 30. Perhaps I assume too much of your intelligence.

It is obvious from my post that such 9 week ladder "seasons" would be the opposite of long-term also. Perhaps you want me to hold your hand and explain absolutely everything possible so that it is "comprehensive" eneogh for your digestion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Your guild isn't even on the GvG ladder, which begs the question as to if you have even played in an AT recently, let alone played competitively. I even went so far as to check the Hero Battle ladder, and your listed character name doesn't appear there either.

You win. Obviously my herobattle rating is very important in determining the level of truth in my posts. But yes my old guild which was sold and was blood spiked down 250 odd rating after that to outside champ point range and the blood spikers dont play on it anymore is also a reflection on the OP too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Class issues, balance issues and VoD issues have all been covered far more comprehensively and accurately in other recent threads.

Not True for class issues. You have completely failed in your "assasins and ritualists" post to address the degeneracy of the nightfall classes and the problems they have introduced. You even go so far as to claim that

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The Paragon and Dervish are classes that could mostly be saved by some deft tweaks to the class.

LOL so how were they saved? The dervish and Paragon are responsible for breaking the balance of the flag stand fight via avatar(s) of stupidity and every broken paragon template that existed from energising finale abuse to blockagon to motigon etc.

Joe

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 18, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

LOL so how were they saved? The dervish and Paragon are responsible for breaking the balance of the flag stand fight via avatar(s) of stupidity and every broken paragon template that existed from energising finale abuse to blockagon to motigon etc.

They aren't as fundamentally flawed as Sins and Rits, the mechanics are largely fine, just the numbers are off.

As far as your post is concerned, I don't see anything particulary wrong with (M)ATs, the system is far from perfect, but with the fact that another GWWC wasn't gonna happen in mind, I don't think it's all that bad.

The AT times could (=should) of course be optimized and the map rotations are kind of dumb, but fundamentally I don't see anything wrong with it.

I don't think anyone would argue against balance changes happening too slowly and too infrequently, but that's hardly anything new or worth mentioning AGAIN.

About the whole VoD situation, I have no idea why all those changes had to be made in the first place, NPCs balling in AoE was a problem, adress NPC AI and pathing, don't make NPCs even more important by adding more and making them do insane damage.

I described the issues with VoD (in my eyes) in my thread, JR adressed fundamental flaws of sins and rits in his.

I don't really understand where you were planning to go with this thread..