Curse

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I love Windborne Speed. Yes, I'm biased enough towards the skill that my guild specifically forbade me from crippling myself by running it over the ridiculously stronger Storm Djinn's when NF came out.

I even ran Windborne on a stand Ele way back when, it was amazing in the Grenth train era to stop your Monks blowing up. Against anything else I put it on Warriors and let them constantly Frenzy peoples faces off.

It's one of those amazingly versatile skills that is so healthy for the game, and is in desperate need of a slight buff to make it playable over alternatives.

Yue · Feb 18, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

1/4 cast time would do that.

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

1/4 cast time would do that.

Agreed, would love to see that change.

Akaraxle · Feb 18, 2008, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

1/4 cast time would do that.

Agreed, would love to see that change.

As much as my bias towards Eles makes me long for this change, wetting in anticipation, I would ponder it with some care - expecially if it's yet another 1/4c in an interrupt based meta. 3/4c is the safest "blind" buff I'd make.

Moloch Vein · Feb 18, 2008, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Since the buff to the N blood line has proven useless to introduce N as a viable class in mid-high pvp - basically, because either a) the skill buffed stinks with or without energy cost, or b) if it's actually of any value it could just as well (and often better) be slapped on a /N...

When can we expect any meaningful boost to this primary? Preferrably using skills that have a value.

Takida · Feb 18, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Make Haste is still stronger even if Windbourne gets 1/4,

Make Haste is instant and last very long + its unremovable..

Nerf Make haste maybe 12 recharge and it last for 4....10 seconds.

Buff Windbourne 1/4 Cast last like 10 seconds.. i dunno.. something like this.
Its removable so need to be better than make haste, ATLEAST.

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Make Haste is still stronger even if Windbourne gets 1/4,

Make Haste is instant and last very long + its unremovable..

Nerf Make haste maybe 12 recharge and it last for 4....10 seconds.

Buff Windbourne 1/4 Cast last like 10 seconds.. i dunno.. something like this.
Its removable so need to be better than make haste, ATLEAST.

You can't cast Make Haste on yourself, and it's also in a fairly bad attribute line. It might be a problem in HA, but it certainly isn't a balance issue in GvG.

red orc · Feb 18, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Make Haste is still stronger even if Windbourne gets 1/4,

Make Haste is instant and last very long + its unremovable..

Nerf Make haste maybe 12 recharge and it last for 4....10 seconds.

Buff Windbourne 1/4 Cast last like 10 seconds.. i dunno.. something like this.
Its removable so need to be better than make haste, ATLEAST.

make haste does not work on self.
make haste does not work for attackers.

Takida · Feb 18, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Oh well.. i was thinking in HA :P

for relic running.

Killed u man · Feb 18, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

As much as I agree with you, JR, We MIGHT as well throw in the "Make Haste" nerf aswell...

Sure it isn't a problem in GvG, however, GvG isn't the ONLY form of High-End PvP. It wouldn't hurt to throw in a few "HA-skills" in there aswell every update...

By the way, people who want to see a Windborne buff:

Didnd't it satisfy all the needs BEFORE NF? Yes, WHY does it need a buff then? Instead of making it a "OMFGZORS NF"-skill, let's turn the rest (Other speed buffs) into "OMFGZORS balanced"-skills...

Storm Djinns got nerfed. Did it? I gues it some people fail to realize that 33 -> 25 ONLY is 8%, so I gues (can't be bothered doing the intire mathematical jumbo) you "lost" 8 seconds every 100 seconds of running... In other words, you MAYBY lost 2-3 seconds in running a flag, which is hardly anything... (It's something, but it won't make you not bring Djinns)

Takida · Feb 18, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I Agree with you "Killed U Man" But Anet is not gonna do that..
Even if Make haste gets nerfed, Without a buff to WB it wont be used, atleast in HA.

erk · Feb 18, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Since the buff to the N blood line has proven useless to introduce N as a viable class in mid-high pvp - basically, because either a) the skill buffed stinks with or without energy cost, or b) if it's actually of any value it could just as well (and often better) be slapped on a /N...

When can we expect any meaningful boost to this primary? Preferrably using skills that have a value.

If they reduced the recharge of Life Transfer from 30sec to 20sec, you might be able to come up with a solo gank build that could Necrotic Transversal into the enemy base. Blood skills could be good for keeping the ganker alive.

Ensign · Feb 18, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

expecially if it's yet another 1/4c in an interrupt based meta.

.25c discourages the interrupt meta somewhat. It's what the skill would need to be viable on a runner at least (longer durations tend to be bad for reasons I've already talked about).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Since the buff to the N blood line has proven useless to introduce N as a viable class in mid-high pvp

Hmmm? What do you mean by mid-high? Death guys are fine in AB and HA, anywhere you can find abundant corpses, while Curses guys got a huge buff from Offering of Blood that arguably broke the archetype again in GvG. People still blood spike even though it isn't really abusive anymore.

Necromancers are a poorly designed, passive profession that does not encourage skillful or interesting gameplay. The amount of change the profession would need to break from that is unreasonable at this point; it would mandate a near-full reworking of the profession. They should live on the fringes and receive a completely different design from the ground up in GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Storm Djinns got nerfed. Did it?

Eh, for most practical purposes it didn't, though it compares very unfavorably to pretty much every other speed boost you can take now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

you "lost" 8 seconds every 100 seconds of running... In other words, you MAYBY lost 2-3 seconds in running a flag

Runs that used to take 100 seconds (not that those exist) now would take 6.4 seconds longer; in more realistic terms, a 15 second run now takes 16. You lose a bit less than 3 seconds trackstarring a flag.

Moloch Vein · Feb 18, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Hmmm? What do you mean by mid-high? Death guys are fine in AB and HA, anywhere you can find abundant corpses,

AB=low-end pvp

HA=Olias-Taintbot for the most part

Quote:

while Curses guys got a huge buff from Offering of Blood that arguably broke the archetype again in GvG.

Can't see how 4 more energy breaks the archetype, but maybe it's just me (and no, it's not sarcastic. I just fail to see how it would break or has broken it.)

Quote:

Necromancers are a poorly designed, passive profession that does not encourage skillful or interesting gameplay. The amount of change the profession would need to break from that is unreasonable at this point; it would mandate a near-full reworking of the profession.

I don't really understand you... I seem to remember a statement of you to the complete opposite only a month or so ago... I could probably dig it up if you want.

Riotgear · Feb 18, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

.25c discourages the interrupt meta somewhat. It's what the skill would need to be viable on a runner at least (longer durations tend to be bad for reasons I've already talked about).

I was suggesting it more for the reason that a timelier delivery could make it more useful for utility purposes at the stand. It's certainly an effect that would take a good player to find a use for, but I think the long cast time makes it difficult to place it properly even when the opportunity presents itself.

Quote:

Necromancers are a poorly designed, passive profession that does not encourage skillful or interesting gameplay.

I don't think the problem is the passiveness as much as the general lack of interesting effects. The negative effect of about half of the skills in Curses and the active effect of most of the skills in Blood is "take damage." And usually it's "take a low amount of damage."

The low-skill aspect could be controlled easily enough with cast time and recharge tweaking, if anything the enchantment removal buffs have given them the ability to perform an interesting role, the problem is that there are not enough interesting effects around on the entire profession.

Ensign · Feb 18, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

HA=Olias-Taintbot for the most part

Without minions, Death is just disease, corpse exploitation, and a few hexes. Tainted with Putrid and some secondary stuff is about the limit of what you're going to get out of a Death guy; that's all the mechanics support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Can't see how 4 more energy breaks the archetype, but maybe it's just me (and no, it's not sarcastic. I just fail to see how it would break or has broken it.)

Months ago when Izzy went through Curses and balanced the character, he did so solely by attacking that character's energy, increasing the cost of Reckless and Price to 15 each. You could work around this before by taking Offering to get a playable character. The new Offering of Blood is worth an extra pip of energy over the old one; that has effectively removed the energy limitations on the character. As the only thing checking the character before was energy costs, this has effectively broken the character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't really understand you... I seem to remember a statement of you to the complete opposite only a month or so ago... I could probably dig it up if you want.

I would like to see skills that don't rely on corpses or sticky hexes be made more playable, and that's happening. I don't think that's going to introduce Necros into more flexible strategies however, not for GvG. Their primary attribute is too polarized, worthless far too often if you aren't building a gimmick to exploit it; the mechanical depth of the profession otherwise is far too shallow. Necros don't offer unique abilities in any density besides sticky hexes and corpse exploitation - the odd skill they get otherwise is simply going to find its way onto Mesmers, Elementalists, and the like. This could be fixed, but as I said, it would require a near complete overhaul of the profession, and I don't think that'd be a good idea this late into the game.

Double Pact · Feb 19, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Sounds like Necromancers were broken from the beginning of gw, which is surely not the case. Curse Necromancers were often a part of a good balanced back in the boonprot days.

Anets original strategy was to weaken the primary attributes effect (soul reaping) but at the same time strenghten (and add) skills on the soul reaping line to keep necromancers in the game. Reaper's Mark is the best (and unfortunately the only) example of this attempt.
Executing such a strategy in a "balanced" way is, as we know, not anet's strength, so necromancers were overpowered in hexovers (e.g. eF hexway), so this strategy wasn't (from my point of view) followed any longer and any new skills on soul reaping were jokes (hexers vigor OWNZZZ -.-).

To keep Necromancers in the game AND balanced, Anet should carry on adding (or moving) skills to soul reaping, so a me/n or e/n as mentioned by ensign couldn't simply replace a nec.

This is, i know, not as simple as it sounds, but i think it's worth a try (especially since game balance sucks anyway^^)...

So Far

Pact

Allanon754 · Feb 19, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Oh man... they bring Pleak back up so it's overpowered again... :| A.net find a friggin middle ground to the skill please. I agree with Ensign, the necro is basically a gimmick character. Besides completely overpowered shut downs (Wail of Doom anyone?) ... they don't have the versatility to switch over to a balanced IMO. Though while we're at it... why hasn't A.net killed Goth spike yet? Those guys don't deserve to keep playing that build.

JR · Feb 19, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allanon754

why hasn't A.net killed Goth spike yet? Those guys don't deserve to keep playing that build.

...because nobody with a clue at all has any problem beating it, and certainly doesn't consider it even remotely overpowered.

Allanon754 · Feb 19, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

...because nobody with a clue at all has any problem beating it, and certainly doesn't consider it even remotely overpowered.

I hate to rant against that statement because I love MH and your guild in general, but just look at the ladder. Goth is at 196 and moving up... no they are not skillful at all. Even played them at balanced once and wiped them. Now I'm not saying that dR, Rawr, NFR, etc. won't be able to destroy them... but if you have a guild that high that is able to spike out a select target where damage mitigation does nothing why shouldn't it be nerfed?

It's funny too... if you watch they say that they will switch over to balanced when they get a higher rank... which of course they won't...