Curse

Apok Omen · Feb 21, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

No, HA is not turning into PvE, GvG is.( Gank and kill NPC's so you get a bigger damage boost)

Nothing is killing HA, it's been like this since the beginning. People looking to win Halls for the chest or farm fame tend to play easy and overpowered builds to make it easier.

Back in Proph days, it was IWAY, Bloodspike, Rangerspike, ObsFlamespike, Rainbow spike, ViMway, Henchway, etc. A few have been obliteraed and replaced. But it's still the same, cept for the mechanics.

Problem there aren't as much players anymore was because they wanted to play something new and its fun for them, that's all. Rank didn't send them away, neither did 6v6 or gimmicks or whatever you point the blame at. If people wanna run Sway even though it has been nerfed more than IWAY, then do something about it instead of mourning and hoping God or whatever the hell you believe in will grant your plead.

In the mean time, I'll run gimmicks till GW2

Kyp Jade · Feb 21, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

i wouldnt mind at all.

wuzzman · Feb 21, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

wow, grinding, especially for advantages in game, is pve. or do you consider WoW a great game for pvp'ers. I'm not a farmer, I never cared about rank, and any attachment I may have to my title died when I entered a HA guild full of r9's, who just monkballed at 3 am EST and bragged about how long they held halls. Seriously the difference between the average HA'er and the ecto farming pve'er is very, very, very little now.

Kyrein · Feb 21, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

pve= player vs environment

HA grind is against players

PLAYERS ARE NOT THE ENVIRONMENT

Akaraxle · Feb 21, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

losing 1 fame per lose pretty much ends the fame farming....

You miss the point. The very title shouldn't have existed in the first place, all it ever did to tombs/HA was bad things.

As a side note, HA is probably less PvE than it was when HoH was holding only. Now THAT was PvE, throwing all stuff and spamming interrupts on the PvE ghostly hero.

Splitisoda · Feb 21, 2008, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Yah, um everyone hates a person who makes new builds. I've ran into the same PvX Wiki Hero Battles Build about 3 times in a row. I don't EVER see ANY difference in them.

I've made some pretty retarted builds (Assassin spamming Unsuspecting Strike that could keep energy up) But its the thought that counts. I NEVER see creativity in people these days.

Killed u man · Feb 21, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I saw something VERY creative yesterday tough... Something I never saw before:

Warrior
Water Ele
Unsteady Ground Earth ele
MB
MB
MB
Monk
Monk

5 Ele team with AoE spam like there's no tomorrow

Btw, ballin' up in melee and arcane echo eruption > psyicial pressure.. (Aperently)

The had Aegis chain on the eles, and shields up on the warrior...

Kyp Jade · Feb 21, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

There is pleanty of creatitivy out there. However people are unwilling to change from something that works ok to something that might work better or might not work at all. Why change from spiritway when a lowly unranked unexperienced player can win the first 3 maps over and over and eventually get his rank 9? Does it matter that the guys idea is a solid idea and will probably do very well? Nope. Atm the only people that create and try new builds are pretty much juts guild teams.

wuzzman · Feb 21, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

You miss the point. The very title shouldn't have existed in the first place, all it ever did to tombs/HA was bad things.

As a side note, HA is probably less PvE than it was when HoH was holding only. Now THAT was PvE, throwing all stuff and spamming interrupts on the PvE ghostly hero.

HA would be a running joke without some sort of "ranking" system. Just because it's Guild Wars doesn't mean the tenants of even a elementary stab at pvp should be ignored.

grinding = pve

argue if you want, but technically WoW is the greatest pvp system ever if you really think that grind has a place in a pvp game period.

For one, new players aren't farming the first three maps with gimmicks. They hardly getting past UW. Generally the incentive to do new builds comes from the actual reward/risk benefit and drive to take every skill in the game and see how they function. There is often large debate on the effectiveness of a build considering all the things you have to consider. Players in general aren't willing to tag along with someone who figures their build would work because of the massive amount of theocrafting they did before hand. For that matter the amount of players who can make effective builds, explain each position, and lead them effectively is quite small. For that matter even if there are people with that knowledge sitting around, they are probably not pugging. Also the drive to even read half the skills in the game is gone. A lot of skills are either bad, going to be made bad, and just barely good enough not to register any complaints. This creates the mentality that FOTM's are simply builds that you "abuse while you can", instead of trick builds to be worked around, countered, and generally taken apart.

Frank Dudenstein · Feb 21, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Wow .. the lack of understanding in this thread is astounding.

HA is the way it is for one reason and one reason only: PuGs. It is a format based on many many PuGs.

Now, which of the following do you think is most likely to succeed for an average PuG:

1. an established successful gimmick build that uses the most powerful skills in the game in an easy to use format
2. a balanced build that requires good individual decisions along with adaptive teamwork based on the actions of the opponents and the state of the match
3. Some dude's idea of an original 'killer build'

In a gimmick build , everyone knows their bar well, is well practiced with said bar, and knows exactly what to do on each map. Why is it so hard to understand why they are so much more popular in PuGland?

Oh, and regarding fame .. .if there was no Fame then HA would have the same population of Fort Aspenwood ... Fame/emotes have been the most successful thing about HA .. insofar as they keep players coming back day after day ...

wuzzman · Feb 21, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Wow .. the lack of understanding in this thread is astounding.

HA is the way it is for one reason and one reason only: PuGs. It is a format based on many many PuGs.

Now, which of the following do you think is most likely to succeed for an average PuG:

1. an established successful gimmick build that uses the most powerful skills in the game in an easy to use format
2. a balanced build that requires good individual decisions along with adaptive teamwork based on the actions of the opponents and the state of the match
3. Some dude's idea of an original 'killer build'

In a gimmick build , everyone knows their bar well, is well practiced with said bar, and knows exactly what to do on each map. Why is it so hard to understand why they are so much more popular in PuGland?

Oh, and regarding fame .. .if there was no Fame then HA would have the same population of Fort Aspenwood ... Fame/emotes have been the most successful thing about HA .. insofar as they keep players coming back day after day ...

the gimmick templates haves never been really strong, with only very few exceptions. They really are just better then playing randomway. With out those templates HA would have become an all boys club 2 years ago, making it practically pointless to pug.

Frank Dudenstein · Feb 21, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

the gimmick templates haves never been really strong, with only very few exceptions. They really are just better then playing randomway. With out those templates HA would have become an all boys club 2 years ago, making it practically pointless to pug.

You are missing the point.

Average Gimmick PuG > Average Balanced PuG

And by Average I am including r9+ ... and now most r10+ (PuGs I am speaking of...)

wuzzman · Feb 21, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

You are missing the point.

Average Gimmick PuG > Average Balanced PuG

And by Average I am including r9+ ... and now most r10+ (PuGs I am speaking of...)

Gimmicks < Balance, but Pug Gimmick > Pug Balance. Thats common knowledge. I don't have to say pugs fail at balance, because anyone who actually pugged a balance build has already come to conclusion. there is no point to be made.

Sword · Feb 22, 2008, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Unfortunaly people dont spend the time and effort to learn how to play the game. They just farm the first few maps with bad / easy to play meta builds.

Tosha · Feb 22, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword

Unfortunaly people dont spend the time and effort to learn how to play the game. They just farm the first few maps with bad / easy to play meta builds.

Well, it is pretty hard to find a team when you are r1 and DONT play easy to play builds. I sometimes have to stand 3 hours in the outpost to find 1 group :S I really want to learn, but if you can tell me how, Ill be glad to

Akaraxle · Feb 22, 2008, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

HA would be a running joke without some sort of "ranking" system. Just because it's Guild Wars doesn't mean the tenants of even a elementary stab at pvp should be ignored.

grinding = pve

Because you think HA isn't a running joke among serious PvPers?

I agree that ranking systems stimulate competition, but the way fame has always been structured in HA has generated two issues:
1) elitism caused by pretentious e-peen;
2) the more you play, the higher you're ranked.
Fame IS grind and has always been: I dare you to state otherwise. Detracting fame when you lose would cause serious frustration compared to GvG rating losses: it's not a guild's rank you're losing, it's yours.

P.S. Regarding FOTMs, the very basis of successful HA/tombs has always been abusing broken shit until you could and get your title out of it. Nothing new here.

wuzzman · Feb 22, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Because you think HA isn't a running joke among serious PvPers?

I agree that ranking systems stimulate competition, but the way fame has always been structured in HA has generated two issues:
1) elitism caused by pretentious e-peen;
2) the more you play, the higher you're ranked.
Fame IS grind and has always been: I dare you to state otherwise. Detracting fame when you lose would cause serious frustration compared to GvG rating losses: it's not a guild's rank you're losing, it's yours.

P.S. Regarding FOTMs, the very basis of successful HA/tombs has always been abusing broken shit until you could and get your title out of it. Nothing new here.

HA is a running joke because it has a pve-fame system. Losing fame per lose should have been done 2 years ago, we would have an entirely different HA environment if the game wasn't stuck in a farm/emote system we have now. Your just telling me what would happen if the change was made now, 2 years after the fact that the damage has already done.

Sword if you have played with anyone higher then r5, then you know that you don't need to learn how to play the game to get far in the game.

and akar your basis of Ha kinda proves my point.......

Kyp Jade · Feb 22, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I've never agreed with wuzzman before, but he is completly right in the problem is the farming for emotes. Fame/Rank is not a direct indication of either skill or win/loss ratio. Any form of PvP does in fact need a way for players to distinguish themselves as either good, bad, or horrible,

Losing a fame per loss would help, but would only really hurt the sway players who farm UW. A rating system similar to gvg would be nice, but have fun discussing the logistics of that since its player based and not team based.

Free Sigils · Feb 22, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

I'll grant the point that the fame system is broken. That being said, I think it would be worse without it. There would be no way to distinguish between the experienced and the new player. Obviously fame/rank doesn't guarantee player ability, Everyone knows some r4-6 who outplays some r9.

Gimmicks are of course lame and bad. Or not exactly. There are three types of people who play Gimmicks IMO. The noobs who just want to grind a title so they can get into "good groups", noobs who play it to get the experience, because a r3 PUG is lucky if they ever get to see fetid. How are they supposed to learn if they don't get to see the maps? Playing something that counterbalances their poor tactics lets them learn more about the game, get their feet wet. And finally they're the scrubs who already have the rank and the expereince to get into the good balances, and the good guilds, but they run their r9/10/12+ SWAY and grind all day.

But honestly, Gimmicks are just free fame for the upper crust guilds these days are they not? What harm does it do to let them newer players wet their feet with something that doesnt demand knowledge of every tactic style right away?

The real problem is that HA became an all boy's club like a year ago. The really good guilds rarely pug. If they don't have a full guild team they ask friends, or their alliance. Its all about who you know. If they know you can play then your personal rank doesn't matter as much anymore.

I think one of the best ways to promote the rebirth of HA would be for the good guilds to form a "Smurf guild" Stick it in their alliance, and just recruit people who actually want to learn. Let them pug around, send a couple players with them from time to time, teach them tactics and good jazz like that.

Rank only means as much as we let it. They're ways to fix it, the HA community just has to step up and do it.

wuzzman · Feb 22, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

I've never agreed with wuzzman before, but he is completly right in the problem is the farming for emotes. Fame/Rank is not a direct indication of either skill or win/loss ratio. Any form of PvP does in fact need a way for players to distinguish themselves as either good, bad, or horrible,

Losing a fame per loss would help, but would only really hurt the sway players who farm UW. A rating system similar to gvg would be nice, but have fun discussing the logistics of that since its player based and not team based.

It will hurt the sway because a win/loss ratio system is a design decision that should have been made 2 years ago. It will piss more people off then it will attract now. And by the time you get around to explaining why the system is better, your left with 1 empty ID district.

Is HA beyond saving then? Well you can't bring something back from the dead, even if its a mmorpg arena. This is beyond anets intervention, this is something at the pvp community level. Unfortunately across the board(from r0 scrub to halls of holding guild team), the HA community is way too immature to actually push HA in another direction.

If your still expecting Anet to rush in and fix it, we end up with another 6v6 level of change. Only time that type of magnitude of change would be beneficial is if Anet has a plan for HA that encompasses the next 2-3 years. Again unfortunately, Anet does not even plan to have a HA type arena in GW2, so any real change that will help the environment of HA (pugging) won't happen. Minor changes, adding and deleting maps, more/less objectives and various short sighted adjustments of that order will probably continue to GW2 goes beta.