Curse

deya · Feb 19, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

It's funny how people who have never tried assasplit or sineptitude are asking for nerfs here.

Nerfing Shadowsteps like mentioned would not only kill Assassins as a class but possibilities to split with other classes and collapses would be A LOT harder to accomplish.

Shadowsteps as mechanic is not nearly as broken as people might think. Assassins as a class is far from broken.

Eventho ineptitude mesmer had huge nerfbat, they're still what makes sinsplit work! NPC killing power is nearly at same level as it used to be and they still got imagined burden which should be on the list of most broken skills in the game.

The strenght of Assasplit is synergy between all characters in the build, nice amount of snares, mobility, 4-5 guys able to take down npc in matter of seconds and the biggest strenght of all is as simple as:

ALL THOSE TOP GUILDS STUCK TO THE SAME BUILD

twicky_kid · Feb 19, 2008, 06:55 AM // 06:55

I find it ironic that 4-6 months ago players were asking for more and more splits to be viable. Now its the meta and again the players turn out in droves to bitch.

Just goes to show you that the players in this game will simply never do anything else but whine about what is the current meta and why it should be changed.

Just play the damn game for what it is. That definition changes from time to time. If you don't like it go do something else.

As far as ATs go players will use what will win. Its hard to come up with something orginal after the game has been around as long as it has with very little change in strategy since Faction came out. Wait for VoD and win. Of course the game will get boring there is no more room for exploration.

Many players have quit because of repetitive game play in pvp. That is not because of the builds we use but more of the rules haven't changed. HoH is the only format that has seen a lot of redesign. With GvG that's just not possible. There is a limitation to what you can within the format. So after 3+ years of playing the same format day in day out you should be expecting the boredom.

Anarandil · Feb 19, 2008, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I find it ironic that 4-6 months ago players were asking for more and more splits to be viable. Now its the meta and again the players turn out in droves to bitch.

Just goes to show you that the players in this game will simply never do anything else but whine about what is the current meta and why it should be changed.

Just play the damn game for what it is. That definition changes from time to time. If you don't like it go do something else.

As far as ATs go players will use what will win. Its hard to come up with something orginal after the game has been around as long as it has with very little change in strategy since Faction came out. Wait for VoD and win. Of course the game will get boring there is no more room for exploration.

Many players have quit because of repetitive game play in pvp. That is not because of the builds we use but more of the rules haven't changed. HoH is the only format that has seen a lot of redesign. With GvG that's just not possible. There is a limitation to what you can within the format. So after 3+ years of playing the same format day in day out you should be expecting the boredom.

Yeah, GvG players were BEGGING for ViO/Sin split to come about. Thanks for your insight/

erk · Feb 19, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

Yeah, GvG players were BEGGING for ViO/Sin split to come about. Thanks for your insight/

Actually lots were asking for the stand turtling blockway meta to be broken. Spliting is just one approach. I am not a fan of just using Sins though, more specifically the type of play they are doing, it's the same old style they have being for ages, sure some skills on the bar have changes but not the play style.

twicky_kid · Feb 19, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

Yeah, GvG players were BEGGING for ViO/Sin split to come about. Thanks for your insight/

We did not ask for those builds specifically, no. This sort of thing always happens. Players want something changed. The devs screw it up and implement crap that's not needed and we get this crap'o la that is the meta.

It should be expected by now. Will it get changed? Sure eventually. Will we be happy with the changes? Probably not.

The point is deal with it. That's all you can do. If you don't want to deal with it go do something else.

By now I've seen every build possible in the game but the strategy will never change. Your build is designed to succeed within the rules of the format. Those rules don't change no matter if your build does.

Its like playing golf on a course that never moves the holes. How long can you play on that course before you get bored? You may try to use different clubs but the result will still be the same. The holes are still in the same place with the same goal each time.

C2K · Feb 19, 2008, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Sinplit has been around since factions. I think it was alot worse prenerf BoA and Recall. In this new sinplit though, the sins are more of a distraction than the actual kill. It seems its the mesmers that really do the damage and the sins either cause disruption or finish the job.

Thats not to say Assassins can't farm the NPCs, any class can farm bad AI. Its just mesmer abuse of that AI which makes it a much deadlier tactic.

RhanoctJocosa · Feb 19, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I find it ironic that 4-6 months ago players were asking for more and more splits to be viable. Now its the meta and again the players turn out in droves to bitch.

Lol. This is far from the type of splitting people wanted.

Also, the "get over it" and countless analogies are getting old

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 19, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

In this new sinplit though, the sins are more of a distraction than the actual kill. It seems its the mesmers that really do the damage and the sins either cause disruption or finish the job.

It's the NPCs that really do the damage.

Dextus Ironheart · Feb 19, 2008, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Npc damage is still a huge issue vs sinsplit however even if you do manage to keep most of yours alive and have ViO in your favour npcs still enjoy farming themselves with wandering eye and clumsyness as we found out vs spnv

deya · Feb 19, 2008, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Actually lots were asking for the stand turtling blockway meta to be broken. Spliting is just one approach. I am not a fan of just using Sins though, more specifically the type of play they are doing, it's the same old style they have being for ages, sure some skills on the bar have changes but not the play style.

QFT

If you go back in time and think about it, GW has always been matter of imba skills and gimmick builds when it comes to tournaments. It's not a surprise in Build Wars - the game we're playing and arguing about.

Fast Cast Air
FoC Spike
Thumpers
IWAY
Glyph of Sac Meteor Shower VoD turtling
iB denialway
Recall splits
Blockway, to name a few of them.

People will always find counters to counterbuilds of counterbuild, assasplit is just another counterbuild against blockway but very beatable when you put a little time into planning build.

JR · Feb 19, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by deya

It's funny how people who have never tried assasplit or sineptitude are asking for nerfs here.

Nerfing Shadowsteps like mentioned would not only kill Assassins as a class but possibilities to split with other classes and collapses would be A LOT harder to accomplish.

Shadowsteps as mechanic is not nearly as broken as people might think. Assassins as a class is far from broken.

I agree with you that the Mesmers are the backbone of the build. Just yesterday I was trying to theorycraft the 5 man stand team in a 2 man split build. You just can't get the balance of offense/support/disruption that you need without using Ineptitude/Clumsiness Mesmers.

That said, the build wouldn't work without the Assassins either. With any other class you wouldn't have any trouble following the split around or defending against it. There are very few defensive splits that can survive against Rigor/Shroud sins, and trying to counter that involves way too much build wars. They can hop into and out of your base with little difficulty, and instagib NPCs while they are there.

Assassin teleports are always going to be a problem with the game untill they are fixed. In any environment where Warriors and Rangers can split decently, Assassins will be able to do it better. We are simply back to the same issue that has been gone over hundreds of times: Sins are too degenerate and unhealthy for the game.

I don't even like Sin teleports when used on other professions that much. Return has removed the positional play component of being a good Monk. Death's Charge has generally just been used for spiking (though has been used in BYOB split builds too) and compensates for being a bad Warrior. They haven't really added anything to the game.

Make Sin teleports require line of sight, change Ineptitude to 15 energy 5 second Blind, revert the AoE addition to Clumsiness, and hit Wandering Eye again, remove ViO.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 19, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Clumsiness, Wandering Eye and Ineptitude are fine now, they last for 4 seconds, it's really not a problem.

About using them to farm NPCs cause clums/wandering eye are AoE I can't really say anything but if you have an equal amount of NPCs or even a disadvantage of 1-2 archers you should be able to overcome it because you have a lot more damage in a normal balanced build.

Sinful Doom · Feb 19, 2008, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Shadowstepping is shit, has been shit and will always promote shit, remove it from the game... The entire assassin class can refer to the above statement as well.

If everything had not turned to block, block, block from easily spammed GoLE + Aegis + paragon DA + Me/E Mantra of Recall ward spam then people might not have cried for more split templates.

I personally miss the days prior to Natural Stride, Mystic Regeneration, Mending Touch etc… when a split character had to be damn sure they could go in and attack a base without getting owned. And I even more so miss when a split tactic was called as a result of facing and overpowering 8v8 stand build. Now with shadowsteps, Syphon Speed, Storm and Flame Djinn’s Haste etc… the game has turned into “chase people around the map for 18 minutes.”

I would love to see Izzy just balance the damn game instead of creating meta out of imbalance. These experiments really have gone beyond old already.

Double Pact · Feb 19, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

Shadowstepping is shit, has been shit and will always promote shit, remove it from the game...

This might be a little offtopic, but still: Teleports might be bad for the game when used by offensive characters, but return used with dark escape on BL monks created the (in my opinion and on the same level as boon) most interresting, balanced (though still imbalanced in a neutral way) backline that had ever existed in guild wars. Thrilling to play, flexible (splittable), yet beatable by good warriors.
This kind of teleport was (again in my opinion) one of the best skills in guild wars, together with RoF and Frenzy (and luckily some others too

)
This was only pushed out of the meta from the moment you had to have glyph+aegis on every monk because you wouldn't survive a minute of the new NF pressure without it.

JR · Feb 19, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Pact

This might be a little offtopic, but still: Teleports might be bad for the game when used by offensive characters, but return used with dark escape on BL monks created the (in my opinion and on the same level as boon) most interresting, balanced (though still imbalanced in a neutral way) backline that had ever existed in guild wars. Thrilling to play, flexible (splittable), yet beatable by good warriors.

Dark Escape I have no issue with, even Smoke Powder isn't too bad. Return has been terrible.

Positional play used to be a major part of monking. If you went a bit too far out against a good team they would have a knock-lock and adrenspike coming down on your face pretty quickly.

With Return Monks can pretty much run where ever the hell they want. Pre-kiting lost a lot of importance and positional play went out of the window and hasn't really come back.

Byron · Feb 19, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Make it a social movement to OMFG HATE any team that runs assassins, maybe?

The mechanic won't change. At best, Anet will just add another 5 energy to shadow steps spells. At worst, they'll buff ViO.

Removing ViO and 50% of the archers would be good for the game. Isn't there enough advantage from having more NPCs than your opponent? And making ViO morale based and/or progressive would only encourage lame builds that accomplish that goal.

Kaon · Feb 19, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Since all things about sinsplit have been said already a million times before, and 90% of the posts in this topic are only a repetition of that, or something posted by a random retard, i'm not even going to react on the main topic anymore. Instead I was quite suprised how people want to support the notion that shadowstep would be solved after adding Line of Sight.

The first problem is that it simply makes sinsplit either suck or godly, there is no middle way. Second of all sinsplit is gay to start with, if you run it, it makes the game linear in such a circumstance.

The second problem is that it doesn't fix anything, all the abuse will continue, except perhaps in 1 or 2 maps.

In corrupted isle one of the problems is that they can teleport straight into your base backside. You can still do that if you add in LoS. In thief maps usually a ranger can hit archers on the wall, so an assassin can also instantly teleport in. In non-thief maps things are often very open so a sin can hit most archers straight away anyway.

It's a nerf that will make sinsplit suck in some maps, but uneffects it in others, therefore the nerf is useless. I'm not even speaking about gay wall or lag problems that could make you miss your teleport.

The fixes that need to be done have been called for for ages and are very simple: Nerf sinsplit, nerf defensive web. And since last month we have to add "remove npc buffs."

Yue · Feb 19, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

My suggestion of taking dp is the best one imo.

JR · Feb 19, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

..

Sorry, my suggestion was badly clarified.

I didn't mean line of sight as in 'can hit with a projectile' as you are quite correct to assume, I meant that in order to shadow step to the target there must be an unobstructed path directly between you.

Kaon · Feb 19, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Sorry, my suggestion was badly clarified.

I didn't mean line of sight as in 'can hit with a projectile' as you are quite correct to assume, I meant that in order to shadow step to the target there must be an unobstructed path directly between you.

This would completely destroy the point of shadowstepping outside of adrenspike.

And you know what? I have absolutely no problems with that

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

My suggestion of taking dp is the best one imo.

Babies, let them kill babies! It's more harsh.