Curse

Div · Feb 18, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Some interesting solutions to shadowstepping:
1) Line of sight req
2) Sacrifice health
3) Disable (attack/nonattack) skills

With this AT rotation and VoD as it is now, there's no reason not to run sinsplit if you're playing to win. The best sinsplit guilds even noted that the best way to beat a sinsplit is to run another sinsplit that's a counter to it. So why would people go through the trouble of playing "balanced" if all they want to do is win? This needs to be fixed.

Shendaar · Feb 18, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

The line of sight req certainly sound like a possible solution. I am assuming that it would also have to apply to skills such as AoD and Recall. Would limit their use or make proper positioning more important.

romO · Feb 18, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

It angers me to even see people suggesting reasonable fixes to this problem. None of them are going to be enough. The issue isn't just one thing, it's the combination of hexes, teleporting, attack combos, full tank stand team, etc. There should be no change made that leaves any of these aspects "viable", because then the others will still remain and continue to overpower people. They all just need to be obliterated off the face of the earth.

I know this is unreasonable, but sinsplit even existing is the most absurd and frustrating thing that I've ever seen.

Riotgear · Feb 18, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

I know this is unreasonable, but sinsplit even existing is the most absurd and frustrating thing that I've ever seen.

If any given aspect of it wasn't as ridiculously good as it currently is, the build would have nothing to stand on. They'd either get steamrolled off the stand, or base defense would be able to reasonably hold them off and then they'd blow up at VOD.

The high mobility is the most broken aspect of it, the monk-trashing power of the new Shroud+Rigor bars is a close second.

Ensign · Feb 18, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Is Clumsiness still a problem? I haven't played against it and don't know.

As far as the sins go the only things I'm concerned about are "Victory is Ours!" (hey, look, it's still a problem!) and the power of some of the Deadly Arts skills at really high spec; now that sin combos rely so little on dagger mastery they can easily get the 14-15 spec in DA without sacrificing killing power, and some of the stuff in that line was not balanced around a sin getting a max spec in it at all (Siphon Speed and Shroud of Silence come to mind). I don't think the teleports are a problem. The issue isn't with the build, but with the excessive value placed upon the lives of archers.

As far as party defense goes, fixing the glyph-cancel mechanic would go a long way, and please stop encouraging the 'kill pressure entirely' passive partygon. I don't care all that much about the Ward, but if you needed to hit something it should be the recharge.

Shendaar · Feb 18, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

It angers me to even see people suggesting reasonable fixes to this problem. None of them are going to be enough. The issue isn't just one thing, it's the combination of hexes, teleporting, attack combos, full tank stand team, etc. There should be no change made that leaves any of these aspects "viable", because then the others will still remain and continue to overpower people. They all just need to be obliterated off the face of the earth.

I know this is unreasonable, but sinsplit even existing is the most absurd and frustrating thing that I've ever seen.

I'm sure most people agree. But like you said, obliterating the whole thing would be unresonable. The least we can do is tone it down to the point that it becomes somewhat balanced or that it becomes too hard to play for the average 1-2-3 spammer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Is Clumsiness still a problem? I haven't played against it and don't know.

...

As far as party defense goes, fixing the glyph-cancel mechanic would go a long way, and please stop encouraging the 'kill pressure entirely' passive partygon. I don't care all that much about the Ward, but if you needed to hit something it should be the recharge.

I don't really like the new AoE Clumsiness. It did lose some of its effectiveness against a single target, but it gets ugly when you and your warrior buddy decide to converge on 1 guy. Can't say I have had to play against sineptitude alot though.

Fixing Gole should definitely be the first thing on the list to try to tone down party defense. Being able to more reliably land interrupts would certainly make a difference. If wam does need tweaking after gole is fixed, a 25 recharge would likely be enough.

Aera · Feb 18, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

So ye another nice thing with sinsplit:

The retardedly placed archer on Isle of the Dead. AoD sins can teleport from the upper part, and have a HUGE advantage. Pretty much clear the entire base, just because of that one archer.

And with this map in the AT rotation, yea, more abuse.

/sigh...#*$& hate this boring crap build

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Is Clumsiness still a problem? I haven't played against it and don't know.

It's quite funny watching multiple knights/footmen getting destroyed by Clumsiness/Wandering Eye spam.

I don't think the nerf to Clumsiness was a huge deal to the build, though it's not quite as ridiculous as it was before. The nerf to Ineptitude on the other hand did absolutely nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The issue isn't with the build, but with the excessive value placed upon the lives of archers.

Generally that you just can't split against it without running sinsplit yourself. If you aren't running sinsplit you better have a damn good plan for VoD and focus the majority of your time keeping your NPCs alive. Turtling against it could be a strong option to be honest, just sacrifice the tower (lol) and the ViO bonus (...) for keeping as many NPCs and as little DP as possible. If you can force it into a straight up fight at the stand with the Lords there you have a pretty good chance of crumbling it.

Ensign · Feb 18, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I don't think the nerf to Clumsiness was a huge deal to the build, though it's not quite as ridiculous as it was before. The nerf to Ineptitude on the other hand did absolutely nothing.

I don't mind the occasional Ineptitude hits, sure they're rough, but one every 20 seconds isn't causing a problem. My concern is the ability of those guys to stop a physical cold, making him do no damage to the other team and a bunch to his own. If that's still the case the character is too good, and the skills need further revision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Generally that you just can't split against it without running sinsplit yourself.

You can't aggressively split against sinsplits, I agree with that. However you can mirror it with your own 3 man split and win, or take 4 and crush theirs. The problem comes from their ability to stifle you so thoroughly at the stand that they can pull a second Monk without being punished for it; on closed maps like Corrupted this isn't as big of an issue as it is on Solitude or even Dead, where their Monks can easily walk up to reinforce the split.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

If you can force it into a straight up fight at the stand with the Lords there you have a pretty good chance of crumbling it.

That used to be how you destroyed sinsplits; you'd contain them for 18 minutes, hold them off at the Lord to thin out some NPCs, then walked your Lord in to force the 8v8 and win there. That has been made much more difficult:

1) Victory is Ours virtually always favors the sinsplit team
2) Shroud of Silence forces you to overcommit to defend your Lord at VoD
3) Scaling NPC damage punishes walking your Lord by making any of their remaining archers beasts
4) Anti-AoE AI on the NPCs makes it much more difficult to equalize a NPC disadvantage

As far as I know the best way to deal with a sinsplit currently is to run paraspike, walking into their base and clearing out all their NPCs, then hugging your Lord until it walks. Sinsplit is a 100% NPC advantage build, if you deny them that advantage they cannot win.

erk · Feb 18, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Assassins in GvG are pretty boring to watch, they spend half the time just moving around the map not contributing to the damage output of the team. I would rather see a W/A solo ganker as they can move between targets without the awful pauses the typical sins choose to have.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 18, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't mind the occasional Ineptitude hits, sure they're rough, but one every 20 seconds isn't causing a problem. My concern is the ability of those guys to stop a physical cold, making him do no damage to the other team and a bunch to his own. If that's still the case the character is too good, and the skills need further revision.

I disagree, clumsiness/wandering eye/ineptitude are pretty weak now and not really much of a problem anymore, they still slow you down but I think the template is largely fine now (Imagined Burden is still a problem skill imo) the reason you cant really kill anything at the stand is mainly the SoD monk + snares on your melee + almost unstoppable hb/hp.

I think the best way to fight sineptitude atm is to run a runner with some sort of some sort of snare and holy veil (most suitable template imo being a Mo/D with sig pious restraint) a monk like that coupled with a BSurge ele with a ward can easily defend a base on most maps, then you can collapse on the base with some damage to kill the sins.

If you're even on NPCs or only slightly behind you can swing the match in your favor at the stand at vod (the monk and bsurge can lord room camp if they split into your base at vod).

Or you can run paragon spike.

You can't aggressively split against sinsplits, I agree with that. However you can mirror it with your own 3 man split and win, or take 4 and crush theirs. The problem comes from their ability to stifle you so thoroughly at the stand that they can pull a second Monk without being punished for it; on closed maps like Corrupted this isn't as big of an issue as it is on Solitude or even Dead, where their Monks can easily walk up to reinforce the split.

That used to be how you destroyed sinsplits; you'd contain them for 18 minutes, hold them off at the Lord to thin out some NPCs, then walked your Lord in to force the 8v8 and win there. That has been made much more difficult:

1) Victory is Ours virtually always favors the sinsplit team
2) Shroud of Silence forces you to overcommit to defend your Lord at VoD
3) Scaling NPC damage punishes walking your Lord by making any of their remaining archers beasts
4) Anti-AoE AI on the NPCs makes it much more difficult to equalize a NPC disadvantage

As far as I know the best way to deal with a sinsplit currently is to run paraspike, walking into their base and clearing out all their NPCs, then hugging your Lord until it walks. Sinsplit is a 100% NPC advantage build, if you deny them that advantage they cannot win.[/QUOTE]

Ensign · Feb 19, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I disagree, clumsiness/wandering eye/ineptitude are pretty weak now and not really much of a problem anymore, they still slow you down but I think the template is largely fine now

If those aren't a problem then great - I haven't played against Clumsiness since the change, and I don't play Warrior anyway, so I don't know what the state of that template is. There aren't major issues with the build if the Clums guys aren't hard shutdown, just *maybe* the DA stuff; the rest is having to play perfectly all match to avoid going into VoD too far down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I think the best way to fight sineptitude atm is to run a runner with some sort of some sort of snare and holy veil (most suitable template imo being a Mo/D with sig pious restraint) a monk like that coupled with a BSurge ele with a ward can easily defend a base on most maps, then you can collapse on the base with some damage to kill the sins.

I don't disagree with that tactic at all. You need to figure out how you're going to win at VoD with the rest of your build, though, and bringing 3 Monks and a BSurge against anything other than sinsplit is locking you into a 321spike of some sort.

Divinus Stella · Feb 19, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

They just replaced clumsiness with other hexers, lots of grasping earth curse necros around.

Requiring a line of sight for teleporting wont fix it, its still broken for spikes.

God Apprentice · Feb 19, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Pretty sure shadow stepping requiring line of sight would solve all of the problems with it, whilst still leaving it viable in some form.

Total agreement JR, Shadow Stepping should be based on line of sight. Period.

Divinus Stella · Feb 19, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Making it require line of sight would be better, but could someone explain the proposed mechanics for this requirement because i cant really see a way of implementing the change, theres way too many hollow walls and visible archers on battlements for it to work.

Also you have the problem of defining LoS, since the game is playing in 3rd person you cant tell someone they cant teleport to a location because they have a fat wammo stood infront of them or because part of a battlement is blocking their view so they have to shift a couple of steps to the left.

Yichi · Feb 19, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

The line of sight would work similarly to how ranged attacks such as a bow, spear, or ranged spells like stoning, obs flame, lightning orb, etc. would work in that if you dont have a clear shot at your target, you're going to miss that target.

Divinus Stella · Feb 19, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

I dont see it working like any of those, i did think about it being similar to bow attacks, but im sure anyone whos playing a ranger knows how frustrating invisible walls and bridges can be.

Also what happens if there is no LoS to the target or if your target moves behind something while your casting it?

It would make some maps harder to gank on, but it would still be wide open to abuse.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 19, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Making it require line of sight would be better, but could someone explain the proposed mechanics for this requirement because i cant really see a way of implementing the change, theres way too many hollow walls and visible archers on battlements for it to work.

Also you have the problem of defining LoS, since the game is playing in 3rd person you cant tell someone they cant teleport to a location because they have a fat wammo stood infront of them or because part of a battlement is blocking their view so they have to shift a couple of steps to the left.

It would probably be similar to the current mechanic where you can go teleport anywhere as long as there's a viable way of walking there, except with a lot more restrictions. As in, there'd have to be a straight (or close to) line from you to your target that you could walk to it normally.

And IMO, this idea would help, but wouldn't hurt the worst parts about the assassin. The most basic problems with the assassin are in the combos, damage, and shutdown that you can pack on them, just the idea of a solo-ganker that has somehow survived until now. And then the much bigger problem is the value on archers that entirely invalidates any other method of winning.

Turbobusa · Feb 19, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

I like the line of sight idea... If the target moves away from your sight while casting, irl you'd lose your target anyway, so you'd teleport to the last spot seen or the location where you "saw" your target at the beginning of the cast.
That'd also encourage the fixing of bridges and invisible walls

Now what about different heights? If the sin is above, that'd work normally, But I doubt you can see a target which is 10 meters higher (druid's isle)

Don't know what recall would become tho, having to have a LoS to your ally kind of defeat the skill's purpose

Hell that'd even nerf some FFF builds!! yes please!

Div · Feb 19, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Also what happens if there is no LoS to the target or if your target moves behind something while your casting it?

If they can move behind a wall in the 1/4 second it takes for you to SP, they deserve to be saved.