Curse

Teh Jace · Feb 24, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I dont care of definition of balanced grp.
Here are some facts...

eu balanced vs us shove spike = shove autowin
us balanced vs eu shove spike = shove autowin

ofc assuming the build is ran by decent players.

I dont think there should be a build which can ensure u autowin vs diff timezone. The problem is the only defense against this is interrupt which ofc fails if u experience lags and this is imo WRONG.

Oh wait... u can bring glyph of renewal + ward of stability and wait 8 mins for draw game.

And guys... if korean players decide to run this there is nothing what can stop them.
Lets do the math. 750ms (shove skill activation) - 500ms (ping) - xxxms (interrupt activation) - xxxms (flight time if u are a ranger) = u have to be terminator or oracle!

yum · Feb 24, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

You guys don't know anything about what balanced is and isn't.

Balanced is a build that can use a variety of tactics in order to have a good chance at beating any other build, depending on their skill level.

What you just said was that there was nothing called "balanced" in this game. (At least in TA)

Popo · Feb 24, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Except those ok skills aren't that great in other matches or forces you to bring certain characters which have their own flaws. Keep in mind this aint the only gimmick and balance take huge hits. The only builds that actually auto-wins or close to that, are gimmicks on their own. gogo buildwars.

This just tells me you're no good and can't think up builds. What is typically viewed as "balanced" has skills to beat this and that's all that matters. You then resort to noob excuses because you can't use them correctly. If this build is SUCH a problem then change a couple skills. Learn how to metagame. You aren't forced to use the same skills all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Saying your lag doesnt increase playing cross continent does tells me you dont play, it has nothing to do with a computer / internet connection. Common sense would tell you large distance equals higher ping.

You're making shit up because you can't think up any decent arguments. I never said lag doesn't increase, I'm just saying it's a noob excuse to say you can't beat someone because of lag. Sure the lag increases for me, but that doesn't mean I suck because of it, and it's not like I have some super computer either.

Quote:

I dont think there should be a build which can ensure u autowin vs diff timezone. The problem is the only defense against this is interrupt which ofc fails if u experience lags and this is imo WRONG

Fine, then don't play in other "timezone." All else equal, balanced vs balanced with one team lagging results in the lagging team losing anyway. Why aren't you whining your ass off because of that? Fact is you don't want to admit defeat when fighting against this build. Just admit it.

Teh Jace · Feb 24, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

Fine, then don't play in other "timezone." All else equal, balanced vs balanced with one team lagging results in the lagging team losing anyway. Why aren't you whining your ass off because of that? Fact is you don't want to admit defeat when fighting against this build. Just admit it.

wtf are u talking about? I said I had problems beating this build cuz of lags. And laggy balanced vs balanced doesnt mean autowin for the team without lagz.

This build is broken and its so obvious. If u dont get it then I cant help u, sry.

Popo · Feb 24, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

wtf are u talking about?

1) If a build requires high amounts lag to be broken then the build itself is not broken. Improve your connection somehow. It's not impossible to get decent ping while on other servers. Once again, using lag as an excuse is noobish.

2) If you're fighting a team with equal skill and similar build and you're lagging while they aren't you will lose. It's interesting that you only care when you lose to this spike because of lag and not to more balanced style groups. This makes me believe you are just crying because it's an annoying build to fight and not because it's overpowered.

These are not difficult concepts to understand and it appears you are purposefully ignoring them.

valence · Feb 25, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Popo, play ranger. Dshot something with 3/4th casting on reaction with a 300 ping. If you can do that, I'll say you are great.

But you can't.

C2K · Feb 25, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Popo, play ranger. Dshot something with 3/4th casting on reaction with a 300 ping. If you can do that, I'll say you are great.

But you can't.

Depends when you are using Dshot. You have to antiucipate the skill, using Dshot right when they use Shove will not interrupt it.

Yes, lag does make this a challenge, but as I said, lag is going to kill you anyway.

valence · Feb 25, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Depends when you are using Dshot. You have to antiucipate the skill, using Dshot right when they use Shove will not interrupt it.

Yes, lag does make this a challenge, but as I said, lag is going to kill you anyway.

anticipate shove?

you can't anticipate that skill. you can anticipate zb with 400 ping because a monk has to cast it or stuff dies. You can anticipate patient spirit due to casting paterns even still with the same 400 ping. You cannot anticipate shove. anticipating that skill is total failure if not beyond that. You get it, or you don't. The only thing you can do is dshot in reaction to the shadowstep, in hope they use it right after (this gives you an additional 1/4 second reaction) which is usually enough. to bad not everyone is so bad they do that.

ofcourse a team without lag has an edge over the other team, but in this case it is a gamewinning edge. it doesnt matter how skilled they are, chances are they will win.

i've seen a lot of bad people running this build, they copy it and think they auto win. it amuses me how they can play an easy build so wrong, but that is mostly mistakes from the caller i suppose. when i faced this build first, i thought it was a total joke, go back a few pages and you will read how i think it is easy to defeat it. skip a few pages and you read it is a ping game.

@popo,

people have been bitching about ping all the time. it gives 1 team an edge, has always done it, however in this case it is a single point of autoloss, kinda small difference isn't it.

urania · Feb 25, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

This just tells me you're no good and can't think up builds. What is typically viewed as "balanced" has skills to beat this and that's all that matters. You then resort to noob excuses because you can't use them correctly. If this build is SUCH a problem then change a couple skills. Learn how to metagame. You aren't forced to use the same skills all the time.

thats how gimmicks come into existance. players are being "creative" and produce builds that often "meta" balanced builds, which are normally interrupt heavy (good example of "metaing" the balanced build it is the hc heal ench spam or taking mantra of concentration/resolve on hex spammers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

Fine, then don't play in other "timezone."

thats not really a player's choice anymore, because sooner or later you WILL meet teams from other timezones, if your winning streak is long enough or if there isnt many teams from your timezone in.

Teh Jace · Feb 25, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

popo : yday I had 67 wins streak (then I had to go) and met shove 3x time. The first time it was on the killcount map so they were simply running around for 2 mins and waiting for sudden death. Then they tried to spike us but I had green ping, gg... But what if my ping was orange? These noobs just exploited stuff.

And BTW: we destroyed guys from rawr, delta formation and some crazy koreans. All with orange ping. FLAWLESS! Thus its not rly orange = autoloss even vs gut balanced.
We also crushed many dual monk gimmicks (the same team 4x, everytime they tried to spec vs us), lots of R/D with EDA stuff.

My opinion is u fail at the game and maybe u are pissed cuz no gut players let u join their parties. Otherwise u would never post stuff like that.

Ofc meta is being changed.... but some builds still remain broken.

I think gut players playing balanced build (according to meta) should be able to hit as many wins as they actually want until they come across some better balanced grp with better players.

Lag has always been an issue but it shouldnt cause autowins for certain types of builds.

My conclusion is this build shoudnt exist and ppl who run it should go pve and not to annoy ppl who wanna enjoy the game.

C2K · Feb 25, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

popo : yday I had 67 wins streak (then I had to go) and met shove 3x time. The first time it was on the killcount map so they were simply running around for 2 mins and waiting for sudden death. Then they tried to spike us but I had green ping, gg... But what if my ping was orange? These noobs just exploited stuff.

Well, to be fair, they can't see you are lagging, so I hardly see how they are exploiting stuff. They are not running around thinking "keke, the ranger is lagging get ready to spike...".

You can be the best player in the game, the best player to ever buy Guild Wars, but ping or no ping, its possible for the best player to miss an interrupt.

Perhaps on kill count, Monkspike(and any spike for that matter) has the edge, but this has been proven in HA, so its common knowledge. On any other map, if this build is uncoordinated and winning, its more on the skill of the other team.

It takes 20-30 seconds to spike, most teams do have pressure and speed boosts(thinking RaO, sins have the cursed shadowstep, Pious Haste, Natural Stride on rangers).

I can see why "balanced" hates this build so much though, warriors need adren to use rush(unless they take enraged charge along with rush) and the paragon rarely uses a speed boost shout in TA because, in most cases, you don't need it. Only the ranger has a speed boost, but arrows can't go thru walls, neither can spears. Its almost unfair to "balanced", well except they have to rely on the ranger to win it all.

But, it might be possible for other "balanced" builds to roll this easier, because there is more than one way to play balanced, otherwise, the game fails.

Teh Jace · Feb 25, 2008, 12:19 PM // 12:19

By exploit I meaned waiting for 2 mins. So one successful spike and u are done cuz of sudden death.

Sun Fired Blank · Feb 25, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

There is no form of "balanced" (e.g. frontliner, ranger, flex slot, monk) that does not have nearly impossible odds against at least one gimmick. I would have said that cripanthem or a second frontliner in the flex slot was your best option, but contagionway has apparently emerged in TA, and it completely WTFpwns the cripanthem. Beyond that, taking second frontliner is kinda iffy; it's clearly the best overall option, but such a setup demands consistent high quality play from every person on your team, and Escapeway using the Pious Derv healer can be a real pain in the ass. Definitely a no-no if you don't have a really quality group together. Beyond that, your other flex options are kinda crap. Mesmers are kinda fragile, Ebon Dust fails to a single Rend, Necromancers and a second ranger are really bad because of HCway, Rits and a second monk aren't so hot with only one martial character (which consequently lock you into lame setups). Build Wars used to be sort of a dirty secret, but I'd say it's pretty much rampant in TA right now.

If I had to pick four things about TA that absolutely bug me: I'm not really comfortable with the obnoxiousness of gothspike in the hands of non-sucky players, the general dependence on magebane for everything, the recent buff to Pious Assault, and HC making every healing prayers enchantment and CoP insane. I'm not convinced that simply making the gothspike damage one packet is going to solve anything; my sense is that Spirit Bond is kind of rare on TA monk bars these days, because it's expensive as hell, there are so many ways to rip through even multiple layers of prot, and there are so few spikes that require it.

Div · Feb 25, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Welcome to Build Wars, where people will take advantage of all kinds of broken shit to win.

C2K · Feb 25, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

By exploit I meaned waiting for 2 mins. So one successful spike and u are done cuz of sudden death.

Thats a flaw in Kill count itself. Maybe just monkspike does that now, but it wasn't uncommon for teams to run around for 2 mins, then gank in sudden death. I remember A/Mo SoJ spikers used to do that too. Kill count heavily favors spikers, this has been proven in HA, can't see why it would be different in TA.

And Build Wars existed since the early days of HoH, with Korean W/Mo train and Air Spike. It even existed in TA with Smite Ball(though it was pointless at the time, no titles).

Teh Jace · Feb 25, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

I gave up playing with utility char. We run 2 frontliners n ranger everytime. Sadly its the only option how to be able to deal with recent gimmicks in hands of decent players.

Old balanced build was intended as a degen build (poison + necro degen hexes). Degen has stopped working (dual monks everywhere, insane HC...) u need huge dmg now.

Popo · Feb 25, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

yday I had 67 wins streak (then I had to go) and met shove 3x time. The first time it was on the killcount map so they were simply running around for 2 mins and waiting for sudden death. Then they tried to spike us but I had green ping, gg... But what if my ping was orange? These noobs just exploited stuff.

Good job quit bitching then.

Quote:

And BTW: we destroyed guys from rawr, delta formation and some crazy koreans. All with orange ping. FLAWLESS! Thus its not rly orange = autoloss even vs gut balanced.
We also crushed many dual monk gimmicks (the same team 4x, everytime they tried to spec vs us), lots of R/D with EDA stuff.

Good job quit bitching then. (see a pattern?)

Quote:

My opinion is u fail at the game and maybe u are pissed cuz no gut players let u join their parties. Otherwise u would never post stuff like that.

Obviously I don't fail because I'm not a crybaby nub who goes on forums whining about lag. (like you)

Quote:

Ofc meta is being changed.... but some builds still remain broken.

I doubt you have a real definition of what "meta" is but regardless, you fail to convince me that this build is broken. I've faced it many times, and once again, the only qualm I have about this build is that the damage should be received in one packet instead of two smaller ones.

Quote:

I think gut players playing balanced build (according to meta) should be able to hit as many wins as they actually want until they come across some better balanced grp with better players.

Keep living in your warped world because people are always going to find easier ways to beat the common "balanced" TA group. The game isn't balanced just for TA and certain groups who hate having their win streak ended.

Quote:

Lag has always been an issue but it shouldnt cause autowins for certain types of builds.

It doesn't equal autowin unless you have terrible lag. In which case it's lag that kills you not their build. I've alluded to this idea so many times in this thread and you always ignore it because you have terrible arguments.

Quote:

My conclusion is this build shoudnt exist and ppl who run it should go pve and not to annoy ppl who wanna enjoy the game.

Fine, then your opinion is noobish and I completely disagree on the grounds that you have limited knowledge of online gaming in general.

Quote:

I gave up playing with utility char. We run 2 frontliners n ranger everytime. Sadly its the only option how to be able to deal with recent gimmicks in hands of decent players.

Finally you get where I'm coming from. Run a different RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing build instead of crying because your outdated one doesn't work anymore.

EDIT:

Quote:

Popo, play ranger. Dshot something with 3/4th casting on reaction with a 300 ping. If you can do that, I'll say you are great.

But you can't.

You're an idiot. I never claimed I could consistently dshot a 3/4 cast on reaction with 300 ping. The point I've been trying to stress is that lag is your issue and not someone else's. I think it's ludicrous to balance a game just for people who lag. Sure it's inevitable sometimes, but in general, lag should not be a major balancing factor. If that were true, then the entire concept of interruption wouldn't even exist.

Teh Jace · Feb 25, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

Keep living in your warped world because people are always going to find easier ways to beat the common "balanced" TA group. The game isn't balanced just for TA and certain groups who hate having their win streak ended.

I dont live in warped world I realize this fact. But I dont like playing football 12vs11.

And without our whinning there wouldnt be any skill balancing so wake up.

This game is a way how to relax for me. So less shit in pvp and I would be happier. Thats all.

And imo start playing gvg and find out this game is not balanced even there (good luck with getting over N/A rank).

Sun Fired Blank · Feb 25, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

You're wrong, Popo.

Jace can have a 500 mbs throughput from a top quality service provider. He can ping at 10 ms or lower to his provider's routers. And that doesn't change the fact he is not going to default a 10 ms ping if he plays Guild Wars.

I have a 1.5 mbps ASDL connection from Verizon. My average ping for most routers: 30 ms. I have no line noise or any other vague complicating factors, my router is properly configured, my average ping on Guild Wars: 125 to 150 ms. And yet, my ping varies quite a bit depending on the location of the server that I play upon. It's very frustrating as a magebane and a monk. It causes a variety of movement problems and forces me to rely on prediction completely superceding reaction.

Simply because I (or any other decent magebane) can stop your average scrub gothspike because they shove right upon vanishing and rarely use Grapple does not mean ping is a nonfactor. My ability to generally control the field gets harder if my ping is about 250 to 300. And I can say that my ping tends to fluctuate outside of American servers. I rarely magebane in Europe, although I've done so and I'm okay, but shovespike is a pain there. That 100 ms truly becomes critical for predicting skill use, it's a huge compensation to build into my predicting and seriously messes up my twitching.

Is 300 ms autolose versus shovespike? Probably not. Does it make the job harder? No doubt. I'd much rather do everything I can to twitch the shove or the Grapple than anticipate it, especially if the group that I'm facing isn't outright retarded. And it's very clear that magebane or another quick response interrupt is fairly critical to the shovespike matchup. Shovespike is a problem because it can force certain builds out of viability. The mechanics of the spike lock you into a specific setup that must have a ranger. And the simple fact people don't run it as often because it makes every match as long and torturous as the Titanic sinking does not alter this fact.

It's clear, also, that Guild Wars does not intend to hinge on latency. I hardly consider that a healthy fact, given the strength of preprot, the general importance of monk reaction time, and trading a d-shot or a magebane for anything that you can hit. I hardly think voicing concern over the intercontinental problem is unwarranted, and your rather flippant attitude towards the problem is insulting to anyone that plays outside of their home continent on a regular basis.

"Improve your connection" somehow is, quite frankly, a dumbass thing to say. If my latency is perfect for almost every router in a traceroute for the first twenty steps, then there's really nothing I can do, and I can pretty much guarentee that almost every other person that competitively plays this game can voice the same facts.

In relation to this, I very much agree that (outside of lag farking you up), a balanced setup is any setup that provides you a viable chance of beating anything you may encounter. That does not mean balanced should be autowin. If you run a balanced and the other group has a more unidimensional setup, and both groups are roughly equivalent in skill, then you clearly should fight at a diadvantage if your flex slot option is unsuited for the matchup. But we are not observing this particular truth. Instead, we are observing that HCway completely pushes necromancers, daze and hexes out of contention. We are observing that gothspike forces people to use rangers in order to stand a realistic shot.

These facts have forced only one real template into viability: 2 x frontliner, 1 x ranger, 1 x monk. The cripanthem is very powerful but is quite frankly not as viable anymore, and strong players get more mileage out of simply beating the other team into bloody pulp rather than using the cripanthem. The fact is that in a meta which did not simply promote unidimensional setups that push the format's boundaries versus more flexible setups, you could frankly give a lot of breathing space to a lot of things.

The format right now is bad. The fact you have to run either cripanthem balanced, physical balanced or a gimmick to reasonably win is bad. The fact entire matches can realistically hinge on an orange ping is bad. And no matter how much you say it's just whining, the truth of the matter is that you're an ass and that every complaint voiced here is relevant.

Popo · Feb 25, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

I dont live in warped world I realize this fact. But I dont like playing football 12vs11.

And without our whinning there wouldnt be any skill balancing so wake up.

This game is a way how to relax for me. So less shit in pvp and I would be happier. Thats all.

And imo start playing gvg and find out this game is not balanced even there (good luck with getting over N/A rank).

Way to avoid nearly all my major points and resort to saying I'm inexperienced. You are the epitome of a keyboard warrior. Sorry, but your arguments are all a failure.

Quote:

My average ping for most routers: 30 ms. I have no line noise or any other vague complicating factors, my router is properly configured, my average ping on Guild Wars: 125 to 150 ms. And yet, my ping varies quite a bit depending on the location of the server that I play upon. It's very frustrating as a magebane and a monk. It causes a variety of movement problems and forces me to rely on prediction completely superceding reaction.

I have that much ms while playing on europe servers and I don't have some expensive super-computer. Perhaps I'm a bit unsympathetic because I don't lag as much as others.

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We are observing that gothspike forces people to use rangers in order to stand a realistic shot.

Rangers are not required. Rangers are a means to an end (interruption). There are other methods to interruption, but rangers just seem to fit the bill the best. Regardless, even without interruption, imagine how easy it would be to prot against this the damage packets were combined. And furthermore, other counters to this build have been listed.

Quote:

And no matter how much you say it's just whining, the truth of the matter is that you're an ass and that every complaint voiced here is relevant.

You had a decent post until right here. Just because I disagree does not make me an ass. Try reading other people's posts for once and you will realize that they were the first to start insulting my knowledge of this game.

Quote:

Is 300 ms autolose versus shovespike? Probably not. Does it make the job harder? No doubt.

There you just agreed with me. The fact that they are trying to convince others that it's an autoloss is the main reason I even posted. It's a shame you turned into a prick and started to insult me just like they did.