Curse

Anarandil · Feb 07, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Yes, because me expressing my opinion on Anet's pathetic attempt at balance equates to me needing anger-management.

You should think before you post.

JR · Feb 07, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

You simply stating they weren't terrible is retarded.

On the whole, no, they weren't terrible. The update will have a positive impact on the game. There are plenty of things I disagree with:

- Not fixing the GoLE + cancelling mechanic.
- Pleak should have had a recharge hit not an energy loss hit.
- LoD change was worthless.
- Motigon was surely decent enough already.

There is a lot of stuff that hasn't been touched that should have too. However, I can appreciate the viewpoint of not wanting to change too much at once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

I don't want there to be a mediocre skill change, I want a good solid skill change for once, however I think I'm asking way to much. I'm entitled to my opinion and I don't care if I'm ranting or not, because I don't care what you think.

A 'good solid skill change' would have to be one that conformed to your opinion of the way the game should be. I don't think Izzy is either a mindreader, or willing to make a vast number of changes at once.

Anarandil · Feb 07, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

No, there have been a vast amount of things the community has agreed on that have simply been ignored in favor of more radical changes. You're simply trying to defend Izzy at this point when he continues to make it obvious that he operates solely on his own agenda. He has ignored the PvP community for the longest time, and he will continue to do so as long as his minimalistic effort continues to get accolades.

Get it done, and get it done right.

JR · Feb 07, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

No, there have been a vast amount of things the community has agreed on that have simply been ignored in favor of more radical changes. You're simply trying to defend Izzy at this point when he continues to make it obvious that he operates solely on his own agenda. He has ignored the PvP community for the longest time, and he will continue to do so as long as his minimalistic effort continues to get accolades.

Get it done, and get it done right.

I'm not really trying to defend him, but I will say you are being far too harsh. I think he has definately made mistakes in the past, but the game is still fairly well balanced.

His goal with the Power Leak change (for example) was not to nerf Power Leak. It was to compeltely take it out of the metagame and see how things shift around in it's absense. Despite this people still complained about how the nerf was horrible and he was an idiot to hit it so hard, not understanding his intention at all.

Sometimes his real goals with updates really are a little obscure, and he should definately address key balance issues a lot more actively. On the other hand you have to really take into account how balance changes interract with each other. As soon as you nerf one common template then you change the environment, possibly bypassing the need to make other changes that seemed neccesary before.

I'm not saying he always makes good decisions, just that you should appreciate the extra insight he has and thought he gives these matters. There are times when changes seem frustratingly obvious though... and in those situations I feel as dumbfounded as you.

Elrodien · Feb 07, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

Yes, because me expressing my opinion on Anet's pathetic attempt at balance equates to me needing anger-management.

You should think before you post.

and you should relax before you post. Its only a game Mr Meldrew.

Byron · Feb 07, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

His goal with the Power Leak change (for example) was not to nerf Power Leak. It was to compeltely take it out of the metagame and see how things shift around in it's absense.

For sure, and I somewhat agree with the change, though I think that it should have remained a viable skill. For, here we have all these mesmer interrupts, some elite, that never see play because power leak was always the better option.

Overall, I don't like the general idea of the update, promoting NPC management. On the other hand, it does open up a whole new spectrum of play that we haven't seen in gvg yet, which is kinda exciting.

Divinus Stella · Feb 07, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Theres a lot more gale and diversion about, not sure how much of that is down to GoE and how much is due to pleak being nerfed but i think gale and blackout are a lot more interesting.

You didnt really need much skill to hit with pleak, im not saying it was easy but gale and blackout have more interesting outcomes than just zeroing out a monks energy pool, more knock-locks for example, but i think itll just force people to take aura of stability.

Anarandil · Feb 07, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Theres a lot more gale and diversion about, not sure how much of that is down to GoE and how much is due to pleak being nerfed but i think gale and blackout are a lot more interesting.

You didnt really need much skill to hit with pleak, im not saying it was easy but gale and blackout have more interesting outcomes than just zeroing out a monks energy pool, more knock-locks for example, but i think itll just force people to take aura of stability.

As opposed to what? I'd much rather have pleak buffed than people spamming EC + SD or GoE + Gale. This update didn't promote player skill at all. Blackout and Gale where ALREADY an interesting combo before the GoE buff.

ChopChop · Feb 08, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

As much as anarandil is putting a bit of personal rage into his words he is right on the money with some of his thoughts.

GoE + gale/blackout is nothing but skill spamming all day long, there is no skill involved in using gale 'correctly' when you can use it every 7 damn seconds (more since you can eat exhaust NP) ..

PLeak was a good skill back when it and pdrain had a long recharge, then izzy had to mess with what was well enough.. imo the way to get the game back in balance is to get interrupts (not just mesmer ones either) back in line first..

I agree that canceling under glyph should have a negative effect, but at this point I do not even care about that anymore, there are so many other big glaring problems with the game at the moment than I am almost happy when I see my opponent only has 2 aegises and 1 ward/blind as defense .. as opposed to being unable to land pre vod kills due to massive amounts of snares on both sides and running away from the least kind of danger.

Many people who loved the game back in prophecies, fail to fully comprehend why they did, it wasn't that the game was any more balanced, there was if anything some really overpowered skills..
However what we had back then was a simpler game, if you wanted to split you had to take a risk, sending a war and a ranger into an enemy base required skill and timing, there was no cheap teleport skills taking anyone out to safety from any situation or massive amounts self survivability available, if you wanted ot split you had to be real good at it.

Nowadays almost everyone knows how to use the standard split templates such as sins, mind blast eles, rangers quite effectively. why? because with the skills available and their balance it is possible to design a build with character templates, where the correct answer to any situation is to split.

Thus creating an escalating game where the counter to splitting is to have more split skills yourself, I think this is what is in common tongue knows as poor design.

Every watched EviL play? they did not split in all the games, the split when they gained an advantage from splitting. In the current system the advantage is build into splitting, no matter the build you are against, spitting them will give you an advantage for free, no skill or thought required.

If people are worried about 'defense balls' then balance the skills that make the builds work, while on it, deal with blood spike and those damn rit skills already too, its not rocket science to make a fun game, all it takes is time, dedication, and some real thought.

I don't mean to rant but it is clear that while Izzy might still have dedication to the game, he is neither giving it the time nor thought required anymore..

erk · Feb 08, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

Yes, because me expressing my opinion on Anet's pathetic attempt at balance equates to me needing anger-management.

You should think before you post.

You assume that Izzy makes all changes for balance, he has said in his own posts that he often makes them to break a stale meta, not balance it even further. eg. the LoD nerf. He has also said that he only likes to change a handful of skills at a time so the overall game effect can be observed. So I reiterate, do not assume A.net are trying to achieve balance all the time or you will be disappointed as Izzy is often trying to make things more interesting, not necessarily more balanced.

/EDIT
The relevant Dev note on LoD from Skill Balance -- 08 November 2007

The efficiency of Light of Deliverance completely removed the need for most other healing skills on a team, causing it to invalidate a large number of those skills. This aggressive change is meant to explore Light of Deliverance's overall effect on the game, as well as the impact of players using alternate methods of party healing. To accommodate this goal, we've also slightly increased the healing amount of Heal Party. Because simply reducing the power of Light of Deliverance would have effectively reduced the power of Monk healing overall, we improved several other Monk elites that were not up to par; Blessed Light, Glimmer of Light, and Word of Healing all received significant updates to encourage their use.

Anarandil · Feb 08, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

You assume that Izzy makes all changes for balance, he has said in his own posts that he often makes them to break a stale meta, not balance it even further. eg. the LoD nerf. He has also said that he only likes to change a handful of skills at a time so the overall game effect can be observed. So I reiterate, do not assume A.net are trying to achieve balance all the time or you will be disappointed as Izzy is often trying to make things more interesting, not necessarily more balanced.

And you see nothing wrong with this? You have got to be kidding me.

Dominator1370 · Feb 08, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

No, there have been a vast amount of things the community has agreed on that have simply been ignored in favor of more radical changes. You're simply trying to defend Izzy at this point when he continues to make it obvious that he operates solely on his own agenda. He has ignored the PvP community for the longest time, and he will continue to do so as long as his minimalistic effort continues to get accolades.

Get it done, and get it done right.

Conspiracy theory: we're all actually in league with Izzy, trying to placate the community and make them like the new changes. No, better yet, we all are Izzy on aliases! You see, we, I mean I visit the boards, see what you guys want, do it some ridiculous way just to piss you off, and then get off while I read rants like these about how bad the balances are. /rofl

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

I agree that canceling under glyph should have a negative effect, but at this point I do not even care about that anymore, there are so many other big glaring problems with the game at the moment than I am almost happy when I see my opponent only has 2 aegises and 1 ward/blind as defense .. as opposed to being unable to land pre vod kills due to massive amounts of snares on both sides and running away from the least kind of danger.

Aside from the crackpot VoD changes, which undoubtedly are going to be rethought and reworked very soon, GoLE cancel casting is one of the worst problems kicking around. It's a retarded mechanic, and it needs to go. The ridiculously interrupt driven meta needs to go with it, as they go hand in hand. Toning down Pleak was a natural first step to that. It probably didn't require butchering it with a meat cleaver, but that's life. If we get rid of of GoLE cancel casting, overly powerful interrupts, and make party healing so we can start pushing blockway out the door, then increase the viability of shutdown skills to replace interrupts, the game will be going exactly where most people have been clamoring to have it go.

This update was a good first step on almost all these fronts. Again, the VoD change needs to be re-evaluated, and Pleak got hit too hard, but it happens. Every skill change can't be perfect. With some time to keep tweaking things (an incremental approach makes perfect sense when you're dealing with large-scale changes), the game could very well get somewhere decent in the near future. GoLE is the keystone. It makes stupid things viable due to free cancel-casting. Of course, it's necessary (moreso, at least) due to the interrupts. If you just get rid of GoLE cancel casting, interrupts are going to rape harder, so they have to be toned down (Pleak). You need to provide something to replace it (GoE Gale makes sense). At the same time, you need to give people a way to keep their party alive if we're going to push superdefense out the door (party healing). It may not be impossible, but it's going to be a heck of a lot easier to do all of that if we don't have to worry about GoLE abuse. So, what's more important than fixing GoLE?

erk · Feb 08, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

And you see nothing wrong with this? You have got to be kidding me.

I don't see much wrong with the concept, change produces dynamics, balance produces stasis. I prefer dynamics. I don't necessarily agree with the skills Izzy picks to alter on given update, but it's better than no update! I would like to see Dev Notes for the update come out with it not weeks later, so we know what the goals where. That would help the discussion. The VoD changes need explaining.

shoogi · Feb 10, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

New vod = encourage builds like that.

/ragequit

erk · Feb 10, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarandil

The latest update, was NOT a good update. You have to be an idiot to think so. Alot of the changes implemented were simply stupid and not what the community asked for. GoE buff, Why? Pleak supernerf, Why? More importance on NPC's, why?

You simply stating they weren't terrible is retarded. I don't want there to be a mediocre skill change, I want a good solid skill change for once, however I think I'm asking way to much. I'm entitled to my opinion and I don't care if I'm ranting or not, because I don't care what you think.

I suggest you read Ensign's post in the update thread, as he explains it perfectly.

I read Ensign's post several times, in a nutshell, he believes that the push around the flag stand is the best part of the game, personally I don't.

I think what's happened is that A.net has seen that games tend to hang around the flag stand until something breaks at VoD, and they are looking at ways to break this 18min of flag running turtling behavior, lets face it there is not much happening in obs for the untrained eye.

What they seem to be doing is trying to get more splits happening to make several obvious points of interest in the game. Little by little their game changes did not have much influence on the huge inertia of the flag stand biased teams, almost as if A.net's attempts were falling on deaf ears, until the point where it got absurd and we now have the situation were splitting is forced upon you, of course now this has greatly upset the 8v8 builds no end, as they are so committed to that format they can hardy deal with a split.

Ideally we want something that's in between, split action to be common place, but still the need to run flags, that means the flag has to be as important as reducing your opponents NPC count throughout the game.

hamster engineer · Feb 12, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Ideally we want something that's in between, split action to be common place, but still the need to run flags, that means the flag has to be as important as reducing your opponents NPC count throughout the game.

interesting idea would be to make a couple of enemy npc's desert to your team for each morale boost.

jayce · Feb 12, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

i bet if moral boost rewarded say +50 health each boost to party members, then i bet you will find someone keeping one eye on that flagstand. provided that nothing else changes with the npcs of course.

Jayce Of Underworld

JR · Feb 12, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

i bet if moral boost rewarded say +50 health each boost to party members, then i bet you will find someone keeping one eye on that flagstand. provided that nothing else changes with the npcs of course.

Jayce Of Underworld

Do you know how morale works? Just asking.

EDIT: Make +morale add damage at an equal scale, so +10% morale gives you +10% damage. In simpler terms:

+1% Damage per +1% Morale
+2% Damage per additional NPC
Both effects cap at 10% and are combined to become your ViO bonus (capped at 15%).

This gives you an equal bonus for splitting as it does for contolling the tower. The one complication is it would mean both teams could have the bonus, but I don't think that is a big problem. Both would be calculated as VoD hit, and would remain constant.

Div · Feb 12, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

Every watched EviL play? they did not split in all the games, the split when they gained an advantage from splitting. In the current system the advantage is build into splitting, no matter the build you are against, spitting them will give you an advantage for free, no skill or thought required.

Exactly the state of the game right now. You have to run a splittable build or else you lose. And there's no negative consequences of running pure split builds either. In fact, the state of the game's so stupid that as long as you have a 1-npc advantage, your team could be at 30 DP and it wouldn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

GoE + gale/blackout is nothing but skill spamming all day long, there is no skill involved in using gale 'correctly' when you can use it every 7 damn seconds (more since you can eat exhaust NP) ..

At this point in the game, I wouldn't be able to say whether gale spam or diversion spam takes less skill. With mesmers becoming more and more likely to camp each other, well timed diversions are harder to come by. Most of the diversions I've seen from opposing teams are sporadic and for the most part, random usage on recharge. Gale and diversion could both be effective skills that require thought to use, but at this point, both are equally being spammed. With GoE back to 10 seconds, it should restore gale to its original state for the past few months or so.

Iotan · Feb 12, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

At this point in the game, I wouldn't be able to say whether gale spam or diversion spam takes less skill. With mesmers becoming more and more likely to camp each other, well timed diversions are harder to come by.

I would say that at least half the bar of the current GoE mesmer is just spam-me-on-recharge. GoE becomes better the more often it is used, and with it comes Gale. Diversion spam has been around for years and gets much better when combined with other total shutdown skills, i.e. Gale. Blackout is a spam-me skill on recharge in certain situations. In split situations there's little drawback to using Blackout so all you need to do is decide if you want to use it on a warrior or a monk.