Curse

Moloch Vein · Feb 29, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

The question is what it would stack with, realistically. I was thinking that it would stack with Aura of the Lich but I'm not sure such a wording is even needed.

I don't really understand what you mean about counting sacrifices as cost, though... you mean the energy reduction?

C2K · Feb 29, 2008, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The question is what it would stack with, realistically. I was thinking that it would stack with Aura of the Lich but I'm not sure such a wording is even needed.

I don't really understand what you mean about counting sacrifices as cost, though... you mean the energy reduction?

When an insignia or rune says it stacks, it means it stacks with other insignia or runes.

The reason why some sacrificing Blood spells went to 1 energy is because Izzy was taking sacrificing into account for the cost of the spell.

Moloch Vein · Feb 29, 2008, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Yes, but there are currently no runes or insignia offering sacrifice reduction. I didn't mean it'd stack with duplicate insignia. Anyway I feel I'm splitting hairs here.

My point was... since the N class introduced sacrifices, since the N line contains by far the most sacrificing spells and since these sacrifices are often pretty harsh, I would kill to see this addition.

Cirian · Feb 29, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

What if the sacrifices were fixed amounts based on the default 480 health of a L20 character?

Something I don't like about sacs is how they get more severe the higher your maximum health is, which is counter-intuitive.

Higher health should give a bigger cushion against sacrifices, but it might be too late to make such a change in peoples' minds.

Moloch Vein · Feb 29, 2008, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Then it would have to be "5% or at most 480/.05".

Anyway I think introducing this change might go some way to make the N class a little more viable in decent pvp.

Divinus Stella · Feb 29, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

I dont think such a change would ever happen, theres a lot of PvE builds which abuse saccing as a percentage(mainly BiP), Aura of the Lich would be killed by such a change which is used in a few farming and MM builds.

Health sac isnt much of a problem, most health sacrifice is covered by party healing, it only becomes a problem when you begin building around skills like dark aura and those are only gimmics.

I quite like the way WC3 deals with health sacrifice, taking the percentage from remaining health rather than maximum.

Moloch Vein · Feb 29, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

^ My suggestion would fix that.

Killed u man · Feb 29, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Anyway I think introducing this change might go some way to make the N class a little more viable in decent pvp.

Ye, because frontlining with a 60AL target is uber-pwnage... o.0

It's like buffing mending with a 1/4s second cast time... It just doesn't matter o.0

There is 2 problem with the bloodline:

-Damage output is too low.
This is quite obvious, seeing how most spells "heal" you for an equal amount... However, isn't that why we have monks? You simply can't pressure with a blood necro, atleast not in the way an ele/para can...

-Low armor/sacrificing as frontliner:
The buff to Touch of Agony/Wallows was quite obvious. Izzy wanted to see more bloodplay. (No more bspike tough) However, did he NOT see the "touch" clause? If you HAVE to touch, it means you will HAVE to frontline (Unless you feel like pressuring enemy warriors, it's armor ignoring, so it's somewhat viable o.0). However, the skills themselves don't even do that much damage on their own. Combined with Dark Aura however, you can pump out WAY more damage a warrior/ele can. (Assuming you can keep em snared, 100 Dmg every 1.5 Seconds, AoE + armor ignoring + unprotable) However, you sac over 70 HP per skill used, so unless there is a way to secure the Necro's, there is no point in running blood, unless you feel like draining the monks energy + giving the enemy free spike targets...

Should I start on the fact Necro's have nearly NO versatility aswell? (Speedbuffs/snares, etc)

Killed u man · Feb 29, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

No need to explain what the D's and N's are running...

'Nuff said

Byron · Feb 29, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

(and additional changes to VoD)

Gulp.

678

Sab · Feb 29, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Anyway I think introducing this change might go some way to make the N class a little more viable in decent pvp.

The Blood damage dealers are crap, not because they sac too much, but because little pew-pew spells aren't a threat in any organised format. It's only playable when you form some gimmick around these spells like Bloodspike or those Dark Aura things. Decreasing or even removing the sac entirely isn't going to change anything, other than increase the amount of Blood gimmicks running around.

Necros will see more play when they get a flexible template comparable to Mind Blast/Rodgorts/Attune or DShot/Savage/Nat Stride/Apply, and I don't think that will happen anytime soon.

Bonhart · Feb 29, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Proffesion Changes:

Imo assasin's AL should be lowered to 60. -> I think it would make splitting and soloing bodyguard much harder to them and also it would make them more spikeable.

Shadowsteps:
Make all of shadow steps such like AoD, Death's Charge, Shadow Prison etc. spells/stances with half of normal range. I belive it wouldn't make them unplayable at all being still hard nerf for sinsplitters.

Elementalist's Skills:
Glyph Of Lesser Energy - i think this skill still should lower next 2 spells cost by 10 ene. However canceling skill before it's casted should count as one spell use.This nerf should make people fake skills wiser, not just canceling it 5+ times.
Glyph of Energy: Make it 15 seconds recharge - and change faking on glyph in the same way as gole.
Mind Blast: Make it 5 seconds recharge.
Immolate: Make it 5 sec. recharge.
Flame Djjin's Haste: Make casting time 1 sec
Gale: Make 50% failure with air magic 8 or less. - Make goe mesmer choose: ward or gale.
Grasping Earth: Make it 15 seconds recharge.
Shock: make it 15 sec recharge.

Mesmer's Skills:
Power leak: Before last nefr this skill indeed was overpowered. My idea is to bring back it's recharge -> 12 seconds, lowering energy lose to -14 with 14 points in domination magic.
Hex Eater Vortex: Make it 12 seconds recharge so it would be well playable against hexways.
Hex Breaker: Make It 20sec. recharge
Clumssines ans Wandering Eye: make it working only for target foe, not adjacend cause it's to easy to block and farm npc's on vod with it.

Ritualist's Skills:
Splinter Weapon: Make It 10 seconds recharge.
Ancestor's Rage: Make casting time 3/4 sec.
Weapon Of Remedy: Make it 4 sec recharge

Monk's Skills:
Supportive spirit: make energy cost 5.
Patient spirit: make Heal amount 96 with 14 points in healing prayers.

Dervish's Skills:
Grenth's Aura: make it 15 energy cost, 1 sec casting time and 25 sec recharge. (or if you think this nerf is too hard just recharge and ene cost)

Ranger's Skills:
Pin Down: make it 10 sec recharge and 10 energy cost.
Sloth Hunter Shot: make it 10 sec recharge.
Troll Ungement: make casting time 2 sec.

Necro's Skills:
Corrupt Enchantement: make it 12 sec. recharge.
Order Of Apostasy: make it 10sec recharge. (or if you can't at least 3 sec casting time).
Toxic chill: make it 8 sec recharge or 10 energy cost.
Angorodon's gaze: make it 2 sec casting time.

Paragon's Skills:
Mending Refarin: lower duration time to 10 seconds so landing interrupt in some paragon's anthem of flame of sor will shut it down. I think you could also turn back energy cost to 10.
Signet of Return: Change casting time to 4 sec.

I do understand that my skill balance ideas are mostly about nefring skills which are imbalanced now. I usually forget about buffing useless skills such like Chaos Storm but maybe in the future. I think that skills If my idea would become reality game would be at least little bit more balanced than it is now.
I don't ask you to nerf overpowered skills too much or remove shadow steps from game (what would be good idea xD). After "my nerf" it would be still playable but not so strong and painfull for opponent.

I hope that Izzy will at least read what I wrote and think aobut it for a moment, ty.

Yennefer Mesmeriser

Cirian · Feb 29, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Blood Magic has a little bit of utility in it. Domination-like anti-caster stuff, and some slow health/energy transference. There's so many variations on Vampiric Gaze - straight up mediocre damage spells - that some of them could easily be converted into something that packed some utility.

Something it really lacks is damage mitigation against physicals. Some of these blood nukes could also be inflicting Weakness, the signature Necro condition. Oppressive Gaze and Jaundiced Gaze could both be straight up shadow nukes that deliver Weakness (JG being the single target version, OG being the adjacent AoE version). I guess they're both Enervating Charge spin-offs, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Of course, Blind is the condition of choice against physicals, and there's no reason necromancer's shouldn't have that in Blood. Angorodon's Gaze, which is basically Vampiric Gaze on crack, could strike the target Blind instead of returning energy like it does now. Sap the damage down to Vamp Gaze level and tack on a 5s blind, that's all it needs (can't be blinding for as long as B-Flash if it's doing damage anyway).

The other thing to look at would be Mark of Subversion, which maybe needs to be 20s recast. Hmm... what about if the target part was changed to:

Quote:

the next time target foe casts a Spell that targets an ally or a foe, the Spell fails

This makes it similar to Guilt+Shame in one, except that it removes life instead of energy, and would give it the flexibility to be cast on a monk or offensive caster, which allows it to be used both defensively OR offensively as you see fit. It lasts 6s or until triggered.

I suppose if I had to characterize the way I want to see Blood, it would be as a mixture of Air Magic and Domination Magic. Some damage, with a toolbox of utility.

Killed u man · Feb 29, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Hmm, I did forget about Mark of Subversion indeed.

It could infact be buffed so a necro has some caster shutdown...

Conditions arn't rly bloodline related tough, that's mainly curses/death magic...

itsvictor · Mar 01, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Wastrel's collapse overhaul! Also for the person that wants curses to be buffed, they nerfed it to that for a reason, the fact you could fire and forget was a serious problem, they lasted way too long for the energy invested. I think being able to maintain hex stacks on like 3 different melee units=problem.

xhappy feetx · Mar 01, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Not really to do with skills but the new map rotation has been anounced. Warrior's Isle, Burning Isle, Uncharted Isle, Isle of Weeping Stone, Frozen Isle, and Imperial Isle.

I'm glad they put Warriors into the rotation, /highfive

Div · Mar 01, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Or you could send some additional defense back in your base so that when the sins decide to SoS the healer you got some ability to mitigate their damage while the shroud is on? If you have 1 person defending against a 3 man split you deserve to lose. Shroud is most effective at catching isolated casters... and isolated casters who get jumped on by shroud sins are the result of mistakes being made in positioning which is not something skill balance can be held responsible for.

But of course if they have 2 SoS youre kinda screwed lol, but im sure a shock from a warrior or some interrupts from a ranger can help to disrupt the sins attack chains. SoS is far from the problem i think... but i could be wrong. I just think theres far more significant things to discuss than shroud.

Unless you oversplit them, the 2 sins + monk will generally get some kills against war+ran+rit even if you're turtled in. The shock is great in theory, but this brings us to the other broken part of sins: shadowstepping. Obviously, your warrior is going to be pressuring their sins or monk in the split, and won't be standing right next to your monk to wait for the shock. With shadowstepping, the sins are pretty much able to get to your monk and finish off a combo before the warrior can run back and shock. Even if it hits the signet at the end and even if the ranger gets part of the combo (which is like a 50/50 thing), two sins autoattacking will still devastate a rit (or monk) runner who can't cast or kite for 10 seconds.

wally · Mar 01, 2008, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Even if it hits the signet at the end and even if the ranger gets part of the combo (which is like a 50/50 thing), two sins autoattacking will still devastate a rit (or monk) runner who can't cast or kite for 10 seconds.

Emphasis mine. This makes me think of possible drawbacks to consider for SoS in addition (or in substitution) to perhaps hitting the duration a bit.

If SoS is to retain its functionality of killing spellcasting for the duration, the biggest problem seems to be its duration (which allows it to be cast right before a chain of attacks) coupled with situations that assassins are able to force on a split. I imagine it's still a challenge to face in an 8v8-type setting, but less instawin.

Possibilities:

1) Casting SoS clears the target of other hexes/conditions (much like tennai crystals -- why is that there anyway, btw?)

2) Hexing a target with SoS gives the target scaling damage reduction.

#1 would make somewhat decouple the synergy between SoS and the tele-hexes. Snaring would have to come after SoS goes on the target. Due to the native spell-disabling quality of SoS on the caster, this would require another split character to really pin down the target. I'm not sure how much it would address the problem, but it would seem to give the monk a bit more of a fighting chance.

#2 would also give the monk a bit more of a chance by changing the purpose of SoS a bit. Currently, it seems to be used both as an target killer and an off-target killer. Making the target a wee bit harder to kill would change its use somewhat to disabling a character's ability to save other characters. I'm not entirely sure if that's entirely desireable since the focus on the importance of NPCs seems to be a bit too much currently, but...<shrug> for what it's worth.

Moloch Vein · Mar 01, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Why do people automatically assume I'm only talking about Blood just because I'm talking about sacrifices?

You know, there are sacrificing spells in Curses... Death... Soul Reaping...

Yes, I know the DD Blood spells arent good, and are unlikely to ever get very good, but if they should even exist, it might be prudent to make them damage the target at least as much as you damage yourself...

In order to let the touch range DDs gain any sort of value, might I suggest adding condition inflicting to them... say Agony=Weakness, Wallow's=Blind? Duration up to debate. But I don't know... maybe better deleting them altogether...

RavagerOfDreams · Mar 01, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by wally

1) Casting SoS clears the target of other hexes/conditions (much like tennai crystals -- why is that there anyway, btw?).

hmmm might work however the problem lies in the fact that the spike can kill even a full health target so i doubt many people would agree with it. It's a useless downside like the fact that it disables spells for 15s. The spells were already cast so the downside has little to no effect on the actual spike.