Curse

DutchSmurf · Feb 25, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

What I think is needed is a huge update that turns the complete game around. Those small updates to judge the effect of each of them didn't got us anywhere, so we should stop wasting time. With a long list of nerfs and buffs we might actually get an interesting game for a while. Sooner or later the next problem will show up, but we can deal with that when it happens. I think everyone at this points just want to get rid of the current metagame at all cost. Anyway, I will list some of the changes I would love to see. Some might be a little too much, so comments are welcome.

Mending Touch, change to remove 1...2 conditions. It is far too strong at 0 spec at the moment and should have been changed long ago.

"Shields Up!", change to "for 5...10 seconds, you and all party members within earshot who are using a shield have a 50% change to block attacks. This shout ends when you use a skill." Might adjust the recharge to make up for the lower effect.
"Watch Yourself!", add an "ends when you become enchanted."
Healing Signet, decrease casttime to 1 second.

Glyph of Lesser Energy, fix it one way or another. The giving back 100% back with a max depending on energy storage sounds like a good idea. If that doesn't work, consider something like "For the next 3...12...15 seconds, your next 2 spells cost 10...16...18 less energy to cast." You can only cancel so often in 3 seconds.
Enervating Charge, lower energy to 5, damage to 10...35.
Glowstone, lower recharge to 5 seconds
Lightning Javelin, lower casttime to 1/2, lower damage to 10...35
Aura of Restoration, increase health gain to 150...550%
Glyph of Restoration, Make the first heal happen when you cast the glyph. Higher said heal to 30...130.

Distracting Shot, recharge to 15 seconds
Savage Shot, recharge to 10 seconds
Magebane Shot, recharge to 10 seconds
Punishing Shot, recharge to 8 seconds
Troll Unguent, decrease casttime to 2 seconds.

Lyssa's Balance, change condition to "If the target had less enchantments then you, you lose an enchantment." Recharge to 10 seconds. Energy to 10 seconds.
Ether Feast, You are healed for 20...100. Target foe loses 3 energy. You are healed for 10...33 for each point of Energy lost.

All shadowsteps, add a "and for 2 seconds all your skills are disabled."
Vampiric Assault, increase energy to 10
Shroud of Silence, increase energy to 15, increase casttime to 1 second
Impale, lower damage to 10...50
Signet of Toxic Shock, increase casttime to 2 seconds
Siphon Speed, increase recharge to 10 seconds, lower snare and boost to 15%
Fox Fangs, remove faster activation.
Shadow Refuge, increase duration to 6 seconds.

Ancestors' Rage, either make it 10 energy, 1 second cast, 12 second recharge or keep the energy, cast and recharge, but half the damage to 15...65

Pious Assault, remove faster activation
Grenth's Aura, move the enchantremoval to the beginning instead of the damage. At the end it should do something else, like remove a hex from you or something minor.
Natural Healing, change condition to "If you are not under the effect of an echantment, you lose 5 energy."

Spear Swipe, lower daze duration to 2...7
Aggressive Refrain, remove the Cracked Armor, add a "your attacks deal 25% less damage."
Song of Restoration, recharge to 20 seconds.
Leaders Comfort, decrease casttime to 1 second, increase first heal to 30...100, increase conditional heal to 5...30, lower the max to 100.

Victory is Ours, make it scale with the difference in NPCs. Lower the amount of NPCs at the same time. I think half of the archers can easily be missed.

Kyp Jade · Feb 25, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I actually think skilsl like grenths aura and pious assault are good for the game, my only problem with Gaura as is, is the nearby range for the enchant strip. Pious Fury has also given the dervishes more options than any other change. The common combo

Chilling, Pious Assault, Pious Fury, Grenths Aura

Is a load of damage, and you can still preprot against bad dervishes that can only 3-2-1. It takes someone with a bit more skill to use the grenths aura to strip spirit bond before any of the damage hits. I've been running this bar almost since the Passault buff, and I still laugh when I see people use this bar wrong.

Chilling hits before pious assault, and so does most of the spike assist, you can still preprot this,

a bad dervish will either.

Use pious fury too soon everytime since all scrubs feel the need for an IAS on spike, making Grenths Aura a piece of trash on his bar, he is better off running something like mirage cloak.

Fail to strip spirit bond before damage hits.

In any case, getting a spirit bond in before chilling victory and the spike assist will save the target, and it takes someone that actually watches the field and not the big red health bar indicator at the top of the screen, to recognize prot animations and strip them accordingly.

-----
That was all for HA too, in GvG, I think most teams also carry a prot spirit. In which case both of those on spike saves the target, regardless of how good the dervish is.

And finally, any sort of melee shutdown completly dominates that bar. That combo is almost exclusivly limited to avatar of balthazar, unless you can find some better speed boost than pious haste. You cannot run pious haste with the grenths aura dervish because of the potential to screw up your control of when grenths aura ends. That pretty much means If they choose to run Melandru or Dwayna dervishes, they are doing it without any run buffs, and are easier for your prots to see.

I can also tell you from experience, how very, very much I hate water eles when I play this bar, I dont run it with shadowsteps, since in HA there are to many damn objectives I have to toolbox for in my build. So no room for shadowsteps for me. Blind is also much MUCH easier to apply to these guys, since you dont even have to count hits, just watch the dervish apply his enchants, wait for him to get near someone, and blind.

DutchSmurf · Feb 25, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

....

It starts being a problem when you have 2 of them and their attacks are unblockable at times. It gets a huge problem when they use /A and teleport to their target.

Kyp Jade · Feb 25, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I do think I mentioned that any form of melee shutdown crushes those bars more than they do warriors. Pretty sure gvg builds still take some form of blind in thier builds. Either a surge ele or a mindblast with flash.

edit-

Also Shadowstepping really doesnt make it any harder to hit the bflash button. Pretty much when you see them cast grenths aura that should be a red light that says 'get ready to blind/blurred vision'

DutchSmurf · Feb 25, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

I do think I mentioned that any form of melee shutdown crushes those bars more than they do warriors. Pretty sure gvg builds still take some form of blind in thier builds. Either a surge ele or a mindblast with flash.

edit-

Also Shadowstepping really doesnt make it any harder to hit the bflash button. Pretty much when you see them cast grenths aura that should be a red light that says 'get ready to blind/blurred vision'

But since it is mainly a spikebuild, it isn't that hard for the monks to make sure the blind/blurred is removed just before it. And then you also have to worry about any shutdown from their side on your blind. In other words, it isn't as easy to stop as you make it sound.

LifesRestorer · Feb 25, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

yeah, it is.
1)any form of block beats this.

2)if they have guiding hands, blind them before the spike, cause its hella obvious. monk's dont have the spare energy to keep removing blind on every spike, they got other things to do.

3)remove their enchants.

4) divert one of the skills that they press on recharge, EVERY 20 SECONDS

5) if all else fails, cause you're bad and still dying, split it.

Razz L Dazzle · Feb 25, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

WTB more learn2counter and stop being bad arguments.

Viable counters existing doesn't change the fact that Derv spike/ and Sin split are terrible for the game and overpowered right now. Whether i can B-flash, stip enchants or Divert all their skills doesn't change that fact.

erk · Feb 25, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Please nerf the recharge on Mystic Regeneration, 5 sec is too fast. Eg Hexors Vigor and Troll are both 10sec. And the recharge on multi enchant removals is way longer, Mystic is usually covered.

I think Mystic is the most abused skill in PvP atm, it's the new Mending!

luminoth · Feb 25, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Also Shadowstepping really doesnt make it any harder to hit the bflash button. Pretty much when you see them cast grenths aura that should be a red light that says 'get ready to blind/blurred vision'

If they are Grenth Dervishes they don't need Grenth's Aura. And if a team actually knows how to spike, then they'll kill their target within half a second. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought B-Surge and B-Flash took 3/4 second to cast?

Kyp Jade · Feb 25, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Ive been speaking of grenths aura. Avatar of Grenth is just plain bad.
Its also very easy to see when a dervish puts up attackers and grenths aura. Then you just wait until he either runs to someone, or uses shadowstep. Eitherway, you will still blind him during chilling victory activation. Even if you miss this, you will have blind hit before pious assault, which is where the deep wound is.

Blinding Dervishes SHOULD be easier than blinding warriors. With warriors you have to both count hits and watch for bulls strikes. With dervishes you only need to watch his proximity to one of your teammates.

Sinful Doom · Feb 25, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Please nerf the recharge on Mystic Regeneration, 5 sec is too fast. Eg Hexors Vigor and Troll are both 10sec. And the recharge on multi enchant removals is way longer, Mystic is usually covered.

100% agreed

Riotgear · Feb 25, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Ive been speaking of grenths aura. Avatar of Grenth is just plain bad.
Its also very easy to see when a dervish puts up attackers and grenths aura. Then you just wait until he either runs to someone, or uses shadowstep. Eitherway, you will still blind him during chilling victory activation. Even if you miss this, you will have blind hit before pious assault, which is where the deep wound is.

I haven't actually run dervspike, but Attacker's Insight and Grenth's Aura both last 20 seconds, you don't need to spike with them the instant they're cast, so how exactly is throwing out a blind the instant you see the enchants pop up supposed to reliably stop them cold?

tigros · Feb 25, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Eitherway, you will still blind him during chilling victory activation

Riotgear, Kyp Jade said the above... (you quoted it lol) that means that you blind during the chilling victory activation... yes, that means you blind during chilling victory activation

. Watching for the grenth's aura or attacker's insight is only to prepare for a potential spike in the following 20 seconds...

DutchSmurf · Feb 25, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

Riotgear, Kyp Jade said the above... (you quoted it lol) that means that you blind during the chilling victory activation... yes, that means you blind during chilling victory activation

. Watching for the grenth's aura or attacker's insight is only to prepare for a potential spike in the following 20 seconds...

So you throw a random Gale or Diversion to their blinder when your dervishes are using Chilling Victory. Really, if you could counter dervishspike as easily as "just blind them during their first attack", we wouldn't be having a discussion about them now. And besides, it doesn't even matter if it is that easily or not. Both Pious Assault and Grenth's Aura still can use a little nerf. Which is what this thread is all about after all.
So if you want to argue about something, you can argue about those 2 skills being perfectly fine. But skills were never fine because there were counters for it. I'm sure the Signet of Might example shows good enough how 'it can be countered' isn't a viable argument.

Kyp Jade · Feb 25, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

So you throw a random Gale or Diversion to their blinder when your

Im going to finish this sentance, but replace dervish with WARRIOR

So you throw a random Gale or Diversion to thier blinder when your WARRIOR is attacking, so now we must nerf warriors. /end sarcasm

I agree that grents aura needs nerf, I want to see it with the same specs, but adjacent range only. I think pious assault is fine as is. However Attackers Insight could do with a little rescaling.

However I do believe a lot of people are very much overexagerating the problem. It does take an amount of skill to use grenths aura for the effect you want it.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Feb 26, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

What breaks the bar is that spike targets are unprottable due to 2 grenth's aura (and shatter if needed). Not to mention that it synergizes so well with EC, and the only way to shut it down is ward of melee. Blind/blurred doesn't do anything because monks have plenty of energy to spare due to all the defense. Add in tele skills to that and you truly have the "omega" spike.

Old dervish spike with a melandru dervish was easier to shut down, because by keeping the form down he has no follow up on wearying.

Divinus Stella · Feb 26, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Doesnt matter how many skills you change, people will just find new builds to farm NPCs, people are ignoring the fact that there is currently way too many archers at VoD.

Also perhaps adding gates to more maps to prevent shadow steps. splitting is fine if a team has to head off with the thief but it goes bad when you have people just leaving the stand and jumping right onto your NPCs before you realise they are gone.

xhappy feetx · Feb 26, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

What breaks the bar is that spike targets are unprottable due to 2 grenth's aura (and shatter if needed). Not to mention that it synergizes so well with EC, and the only way to shut it down is ward of melee. Blind/blurred doesn't do anything because monks have plenty of energy to spare due to all the defense. Add in tele skills to that and you truly have the "omega" spike.

Old dervish spike with a melandru dervish was easier to shut down, because by keeping the form down he has no follow up on wearying.

Very true, good post, this is why [skill]infuse health[/skill] is ftw

Syntonic · Feb 26, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Izzy does have a few responses to some of the skills being mentioned here and his thoughts on them at his talk page if this wasn't mentioned before.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:.../User_feedback

I can't say I agree with everything being discussed here or on the talk page especially the fact that guardian needs a nerf rather than the other layers of blockweb including SoD but regardless some feedback the feedback here might relate better on the talk pages if some sort of general consensus could be reached.

Div · Feb 26, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

Izzy does have a few responses to some of the skills being mentioned here and his thoughts on them at his talk page if this wasn't mentioned before.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:.../User_feedback

I can't say I agree with everything being discussed here or on the talk page especially the fact that guardian needs a nerf rather than the other layers of blockweb including SoD but regardless some feedback the feedback here might relate better on the talk pages if some sort of general consensus could be reached.

Unfortunately, most of those "suggestions" are posted by completely idiotic people who Izzy is forced to listen to because they constitute the mass majority of GW. Siphon isn't on the list of assassin skills under discussion at the time of my checking, and people are advocating a buff to iron palm? Crap like magnetic aura and iron mist are being discussed. Someone argued Mending refrain was "too clumsy in a team with only 1 Paragon." This is why I don't even bother going there, because I know it's just filled with shitters who think they know what they're talking about.