Curse

TaCktiX · Mar 05, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Originally posted on Page 8 of the Suggested Balance Update to Change Gears for 2008 & Beyond

It is no argument that the four new classes are completely broken. Their mechanics broke the skill > time paradigm that Prophecies had carefully cultivated. Anyone who debates this fact is a fool.

So how do you fix those classes? How about look at a class's weaknesses that force it into a particular (broken and degenerate) role?

Assassin:

Dagger damage just plain sucks. Yes, it's to keep from having auto-attack + spike-from-hell, but it forces any and all Assassins wishing to do anything into instagib bars. Buff dagger damage to just below a sword (say, 10-20), DEBUFF +damage skills. Buff or keep the same condition-causing chain attacks. This encourages ranger-like utility play while discouraging the Zomg-Blades-of-Steel instagib combo's.

A sin on the front line without an attack chain in progress is a sin soon to die. Forces sins to bring rather imbalanced skills like Critical Defenses and Way of Perfection. Yes, they both depend on Criticals, but a sin is designed to Crit. Buff a sin's passive defense capability aside from requiring Nightstalker insignia on all pieces. Don't increase their AL, but Ranger-like stances and Monk-like enchantments that last a long time (long duration, long recharge) that make it less likely for them to just plain die would help.

Shadowstepping is the only way to survive for a sin. Routes back to the dead-sin-in-frontline problem. With the buffs to passive defense, put an aftercast on shadowsteps (can't instagib, have to wait a second, making it harder for a sin to get an unprotted spike unless the rest of his team is helping out). And maybe add an inherent ability of Shadow Arts that gives a small +health for shadowstepping? Shadow Arts is the Sin's survival line. Encouraging atting into it would also encourage more utility play.

Bottom Line: Encourage utility, discourage spike, upgrade survivability, downgrade shadowstepping.

Ritualist:

Spirits don't move. At least, unless you bring Draw Spirit. So the Rit can't take his army with him. That allows any Joe Player worth a snuff to just avoid the Rit's spirits, nerfing the Rit's ability to do anything if he takes a spirit role. Why not slightly buff spirit movement to be a little variable? Think Wailing Lord and Banshee moving around variable. They're still stuck in a small area (I'd say Nearby range from point of summoning), but at least they're not AoE magnets. I dunno, addressing the spirit role (a critical part of the Rit profession, considering that its primary attribute directly relates to Spirits) is a tough one. If spirits get buffed to usefulness, then Spawning Power will be more relevant other than "wow, my spirit lasts 1 more second against the Teinei's Heat." I reserve any other statement on Spawning Power for now.

Weapon Spells, the mechanic, has got to be the LEAST broken thing about the new classes. ANet almost did it right. They can't stack, they can't be removed. Fairly worthy compromise. The thing ANet has done wrong is just how powerful some weapon spells are (Splinter Weapon anyone?). Nerf the damage for some, nerf the duration for others. Weapon Spells are pretty damn close to where they should be, make the last push with some balancing.

Channeling Magic is broken. To keep the Rit from being a cheap version of an Air Ele, damage was blown way out of proportion. Spirit Rift is still gigantic damage. Ancestor's Rage is overkill. Heck, nearly every AoE form of Channeling Magic is way too much damage. With the Rit Spike nerf single-target spells were brought into line, but the AoE ones were left with half-nerfs that didn't fix the problem. Instead of raw massive damage with a few conditions, why not do more things like Essence Strike and Spirit Boon Strike? Mediocre damage, but utility useful to the Rit.

Restoration Magic just sucks. I'm sure there are a lot of arena Rits who will disagree, but it sucks. Raw heal << Monk prot. Weapon of Remedy is a fantastic example of what Restoration Magic COULD be. More protection elements (life steal for WoR, condition removal), less uber-heal that takes far too long to cast if you're trying to forestall a spike. Aim for a middle ground between Monk Heal and Prot with Restoration. Then it might be desirable instead of degenerate.

Bottom Line: Fix spirits, give Weapon Spells that last little push, encourage Channeling utility instead of spike degeneracy, make Restoration more comparable to a monk's superior capabilities.

Paragon:

Earshot range is a b****. It reduces class split-ability while encouraging straight-on 8v8 blockweb play. Echoes are too short and rely on "zomg, a chant ended!" to get re-application. ONLY when Echoes get re-applied are they worth the cost. Same with Refrains (including that Aggressive one that refuses to go away). Buff duration of echoes and chants, remove in any form re-application.

Make fewer chants and shouts require so much adrenaline, it limits the Paragon's ability to help his party in a split scenario, because chucking a spear 4 times just to be able to hit "GFTE!" or "Watch Yourself!" is begging for a bogged-down meta. And limit how many shouts can be stacked. It's really irritating to other teams to have "Watch Yourself!", Defensive Anthem, Mending Refrain, and "Shields Up!" on the entire team with no real penalty. Bogged down 8v8 play is boring, this is a well known fact. Splitting out, collapsing, and requiring active intelligent play is fun to play, fun to watch, much healthier for the game.

Spear damage is too high. I can understand 80AL considering the class's adrenaline basis, but a better-than-a-sword ranged auto-attack? Rangers can't even begin to parallel that, especially because of the ubiquity of Aggressive Refrain. Range and rate of (normal) attack are not the issue, a Paragon has 80AL. It's the damage caused. It rewards chucking at any random target, discourages meaningful positioning. Another case of skill < time that the new classes have brought in.

Motivation is a weak line. You can't partly att into Motivation. It's all or nothing, and then you're weak at nearly everything else. So either you're a mediocre party healer, or you contribute no Motivation at all. Fix Motivation to be a strong line at the 6 or 9 att breakpoints. 14 should not be required to make the line worth something. Couple this with a nerf to active shouts/chants, and the buff in effectiveness would not make SoR paras unstoppable.

Yes, Leadership is broken, but it's only broken when 8v8 bog-down play is encouraged. You could lower the energy cap that a Paragon gets from Leadership, yes, but putting up 8 Mending Refrains then spamming Anthem of Flame on recharge isn't that hard, and more than maintainable. And I think the conditions for Chants and Shouts right now are fine, but being able to stack as many unremovable ones as you want is what's broken. Penalize spam, reward skilled use. For instance, if you could have either "Shield's Up!" or "Watch Yourself!", but not both, which one would a person pick? That's tactical strategy and skill. Cap the number of shouts a person can have on them and Leadership is a non-issue.

Bottom Line: Echoes aren't worth it because they force 8v8 Blockweb, Shouts require too much for a split but are far too powerful when stacked (8v8), Spears need a damage knock, Motivation is demotivating.

Dervish:

The Form elites suck. Say that Melandru dervish is overpowered, the new (and old) Grenth is ridiculous, and that Lyssa's damage bonus is overkill. They suck purely because you can't maintain them. Half the time you have a purpose-set killing machine, the other half of the time you have dead weight. That's a really crummy balancing mechanism. Buff duration of Forms, DEBUFF how powerful they are (+75hp/remove conditions on each attack skill use for Melandru).

All other Dervish elites suck when not used with a spike or a gimmick. Wounding Strike is a great source of Deep Wound...if there's a ton of damage going on the target at the same time. Wearying/Pious are great, if you can uber-spike with other stuff afterwards. Pious Renewal and Arcane Zeal are sweet energy management...if you're dedicated to healing an arena-sized party. While trying so hard to build the Dervish around enchantments, the elites were either born for spikes, or born for gimmicks. Alter mechanics a bit and make them interesting and do-able in a balanced setting.

Scythe damage varies far too much. The best spiking weapon in the game, or the worst thing since Daggers. That's too much variance. The scythe is either too powerful, or too weak to make any difference. If anything else forces a Dervish into spiking roles, it's the fact that they only get decent damage output when their scythe crits. Narrow the range to something like a cross between a sword and a hammer (14-35).

The class "relies" on enchantments. More like it relies on somebody else's enchantments because the only way for a Dervish to have killing power is 5 scythe attacks, a rez, an IAS, and a speed boost. Zero utility, zero room for the class's "designed" role as an enchanted fighter for the gods. Mysticism is either severely broken (read: Dervish healing gimmicks) or seriously underpowered (oh wow, Heart of Fury just ended, and I now have 7 energy instead of 3!). Cap out the energy gain a la Soul Reaping nerf, and buff the lower range. Or redesign the attribute to give a reduction in cost for enchantments instead of raw energy. Something to fix Mysticism's wild variance between suck and broke.

Bottom Line: Forms are overpowered and underpowered, all other Elites force degenerate play, Scythe damage varies too much, enchantments cause either brokenness or suckiness, not a middle ground.

FoxBat · Mar 06, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

You do realize what the chances are now of any major class overhaul...

twicky_kid · Mar 06, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Its a simple fix really.

Make a core only GvG bracket. OMG!!! that was so hard to figure out. My head hurts now from all that thinking.

erk · Mar 06, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

Originally posted on Page 8 of the Suggested Balance Update to Change Gears for 2008 & Beyond

It is no argument that the four new classes are completely broken. Their mechanics broke the skill > time paradigm that Prophecies had carefully cultivated. Anyone who debates this fact is a fool.

I guess I am a fool then, as that sounds to me like a gross overstatement, another one of those pining for the core posts. As many threads have indicated there are some skills that are over powered and causing trouble but overall most professions are doing fine and useful in GvG, with the exception of perhaps the Necro that has been sidelined a bit. Good luck trying to wind back the clock.

pah01 · Mar 06, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

erk you fail. There is no escape from the fail of your reply.

If eneogh posts get on the front page about how broken the four new classes are then perhaps izzy will finally listen.

Then again why do people allow you to post, you are completely wrong.

Go away.

Joe

TaCktiX · Mar 06, 2008, 04:30 AM // 04:30

I know I could be accused of babying my thread, but could we please stop debating the need to fix the expansion classes or quickie fix of "remove them entirely", and debate the ways I suggest? I mean seriously, if you want to whine and complain about how "the good old days" were so much better, find another thread. I want constructive criticism and not another b****fest about how Sins, Rits, Paras, and Dervs are "beyond all hope of recovery."

erk · Mar 06, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

erk you fail. There is no escape from the fail of your reply.

If eneogh posts get on the front page about how broken the four new classes are then perhaps izzy will finally listen.

Then again why do people allow you to post, you are completely wrong.

Go away.

Joe

Do you do anything but troll?

I will quote JR from this recent thread on balanced GvG builds who's comment I agree with :

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...28#post3714028

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

...
Izzy just needs to peace out Derv Spike and Sin Split in the next update and I will be very happy with the state of the game... provided he nerfs them properly and doesn't in the process create some other abomination of a build.

DreamWind · Mar 06, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

I want constructive criticism and not another b****fest about how Sins, Rits, Paras, and Dervs are "beyond all hope of recovery."

The classes have been broken for nearly 2 years. There have been posts and threads for 2 years talking about how they are beyond all hope of recovery. Why do you think this one thread is going to change all that? The people suggesting core only PvP are the ones who realize this.

jayce · Mar 06, 2008, 10:37 AM // 10:37

not sure if anyone has mentioned this before anywhere but for assassins:

lead attack...all other lead attack skills are disabled for 3 seconds
offhand attack...all other offhand attack skills are disabled for 3 seconds
dual attack...all other dual attack skills are disabled for 3 seconds
moebius strike - change to melee attack but maybe still count as a dual attack

just a thought

Jayce Of Underworld