Curse

LifeInfusion · Feb 12, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

I like how 2 pages was spent on how Assassins don't DPS more than warriors.

How to fix it being either overpowered or crap should be the topic of the thread, not whether they outdps a weapon with 1.5x the base damage.

Div · Feb 12, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I like how 2 pages was spent on how Assassins don't DPS more than warriors.

How to fix it being either overpowered or crap should be the topic of the thread, not whether they outdps a weapon with 1.5x the base damage.

Agreed. I got back and saw 2 more pages of crap about assassin DPS in this thread. It's just retarded. I don't care if you took time to do your DPS test on little dummies; it's simply not going to work in an environment where there's damage mitigation and linebacking. Unless you show me on obs mode that sins do good pressure, it's just all theorycrafting.

That said, let's get back on topic.

Hyper Cutter · Feb 12, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Almost seems to me like the problem isn't that assassins are bad, but that warriors are too good...

Captain Robo · Feb 12, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Almost seems to me like the problem isn't that assassins are bad, but that warriors are too good...

Kind of.

It sounds strange, but Assassins are only bad when they're not extremely broken. They're certainly toned down from how they used to be, but some people have the opinion that they still present a threat to a balanced game environment. Warriors have been the end-all-be-all of (balanced) offense since people started getting good at the game, but there are limitations to what they can and can't do. Warriors are very balanced in a sense that they can't really function without strong support; but when they have support, they throw their weight around like no other class. Assassins, on the other hand, don't bring a lot to an 8v8 lineup, but they tend to buttrape people on splits. The "utility" which would normally allow a class to bring something valuable to a team is, in the Assassin's case, the ability to force a kill regardless of what the opponent does to protect himself, with very little effort on the assassin's behalf.

Warriors are extremely skill intensive, and you're not going to score kills just by 123456'ing someone to death... as you can with an Assassin. That appears to be the basis of the argument here.

wuzzman · Feb 12, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

at the stand, assassins are worthless, on ganks, the assassin is priceless.

Zabe · Feb 12, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Seriously off topic so I expect a deletion, I consider "old timers" as those stuck in their ways because they think they have done it all, and resist change, hence the double quotes for the cliché, rather than some specific timeline. This seems to be very common in GvG less so in the other areas of PvP.

Or oldtimers have seen a ton of things in GvG (including frontline assasins, Shattering Assault anyone?). And they are just pissed off when someone like you comes here speaking total bs.

On topic:

Some nerf to shadowsteps is needed. Dunno what, exhaustion atleast on paper doesn't sound too good, because as someone already said, shadowsteps have a very long recharges.

wren e · Feb 12, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Two of the biggest issues I have with sins is their lack of depth and inflexibility. Their lack of depth stems from low armor for a melee class, very low auto attack damage, and dependence on skills to do any significant damage. Their inflexibility is attributed to having to spec too much into their primary attribute to recieve any significant beneficial energy gain and skill attack chains that limit the amount of skill slots available for utility and are too easy to disrupt. In my opinion, if Anet can fix the sins inflexibility, it would increase the depth of the class and make for a better profession.

I do have a few suggestions on what could be done to try and decrease the current amount of inflexibility of the sin profession.
The first thing I would suggest is that Anet change the break points of Critical Strikes for energy return. Currently, the break points are you gain 1 energy at level 3, 2 energy at level 8, and 3 energy at level 13. Since the sin is designed to constantly use skills to attack (very low auto attack damage) most sins to be able to consistently try and DPS (not spike) need to run 13 in critical strikes and use zealous daggers. By having to run such a high amount in critical strikes and for your weapon mastery, it leaves limited amount of attribute points to be specced into other attributes and limits the varity and amount of utility that you can bring on a sin.
The change that could be done to critical strikes is to have the break points change to you gaining 1 energy at level 3, 2 energy at level 7, and 3 energy at level 12 conservatively or go 1 energy at level 3, 2 energy at level 6, 3 energy at level 9, 4 energy at level 12, and 5 energy at level 15 aggressively. Depending on if Anet was to go with either the conservative change or the aggressive change would enable more limited attribute spread or a greater variety with the aggressive change.

The next change is to help limit the inflexibility of the sins is dagger attacks and their dependence on lead, offhand, dual attacks (LOD) or offhand, duel, offhand, dual attacks (ODOD). With sins having very low auto attack damage and dependence on using skills to do significant damage, the fragility of sins having to follow a set formula to accomplish their purpose, all lends itself to mindless play and the inability to do anything other than one specific function.
I can think of two changes that would change this and open the class up and be more flexible. The first change is to completely retune all dagger attacks and break the dependence on attack chain and chain the skills from "must follow" to "if follows, then does ....." By changing to additional effects on following attack chains but still leaving the ability to use the attack skills out of sequence means that block, blind, and missing while still effective at limiting the ability of the sin, does not totally shut it down, putting it more in line with the other melee classes. This is a drastic change and I don't think that Anet would ever go this far this late in the game to fix the situation.
The second change that would open more flexibility that does not require as much work would be to change a few specific skills to give the same effect.
First skill that I would change would be Repeating Strike. I would functionally change this skill to "Dual Attack. If it hits, this attack does +5-17 damage. If this follows a off-hand attack, it deals an additional +5-17 damage." The reason for this change is bar compression, the ability to provide steady DPS, gives the ability to switch targets and still be effective, rewards following the attack chain, and does not break the current system.
The next skill that I would change is Way of the Master. I would change it to 10 energy, 1 second cast, and keep it at 30 second recharge. Then I would change the functionality to "Enchantment. For 60 seconds, you have an additional 2-24% chance to land a critical. If you land a critical you deal an additional +3-15 damage." This would make it usable for dagger mastery sins and increase auto attack damage for daggers.
The last skill that I would change for the moment is Augury of Death. Keep it at 5 energy, 1 second cast, and change it to 5 recharge. Functionally change to "Hex Spell. For 1-12 seconds, target foe suffers 1-3 health degen. If target foes health goes below 50% health, target foe suffers from deep wound for 1-6 seconds." This change adds utility to the sin and still maintains the ability to inflict a deep wound while eliminating some of the gimmickiness of the current skill description.

These are my thoughts about the state that sins are currently in. If we cannot agree about specific skill changes to rectify the situation, at least we can agree about the causes of the issues.

Poise · Feb 13, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

To fully fix assassins would require an entire reworking of the class; forced attack combos, energy-management primary attribute, offensive teleports, etc were all conceptually bad IMO. I think the OP agrees with this and was trying to ask "how do we get away from these things?". This post involves keeping some of those things in place, but due to some of the tangents the thread has gone off on, I think it is still relevant to the discussion. Reworking the above problems would be very time comsuming and difficult for Anet to implement this late in the game, and consequently these kinds of changes seem extremely unlikely, at least before GW2. Until then, I think it is possible to make sins and rits into viable classes, primarily through skill balances. This post deals with assassins, but I think they suffer fairly similar problems.

The current sin skillset is all spike damage, with limited utility. It needs to be more of a mix between the two; a somewhat similar role to paragons. But where a paragon's utility is generally some kind of party-wide buff, sin's utility would be based on movement superiority/control and powerful, short-duration disruptive elements. Much of it would be half-range, and much of it would probably be based on applying conditions.

The attributes are already kind of set up for this:
Dagger = dagger attacks
Critical = melee utility/attacks
Deadly = offensive utility
Shadow = defensive utility
Except right now the damage is overblown (mainly through L-O-D-O-D) and, partially as a consequence of the overblown damage, the utility is all too gimmicky/conditional.

In fact, sin skills on the whole are very conditional; foe is hexed, you are enchanted, while attacking, etc. This is the reason L-O-D attack combos were a bad idea to begin with. They're too conditional, too forced, too gimmicky. Skills should be balanced to largely get away from this kind of conditionality. And when there is a condition, it should generally be in the form of "Skill does X. If <some condition is met>, it also does Y", not in the form of "Skill only works if/while <some condition is met>".

So, how to fix?

- Limit dagger attacks to L-O-D only. The only exception should be 'melee attack' skills, or possibly at the cost of your elite (ie Moebius/Palm Strike). As long as it's possible to make L-O-D-O-D instagib combos sins will A) be extremely difficult or impossible to balance, B) be limited only to instagib roles, and C) have all their utility skills gimped to compensate. That said, with only L-O-D available, it also means L-O-D needs to be able to do respectable damage and sins need to have access to reasonable attack skills that give deep wound.

- Eliminate or further nerf offensive (ie, to target foe) teleports. Replace them with readily available movement buffs.

- Rework the utility skills to make the viable. This means short duration and recharge, useful effects, and less condionality.

- Get rid of skills like Deadly Paradox and Deadly Haste. Their existance makes it virtually impossible to balance the skills they would affect.

(other non-skill changes that would be beneficial and I think easy to implement)
- Re-scale Critical Strikes so that +3 energy/crit is at 12 instead of 13. This gives a little wiggle room to invest in utility skills, even with a build that is primarily meant for melee damage.

- Allow someone weilding daggers to equip two seperate dagger handle mods. This makes sins slightly more durable. Not as useful as a shield, but it would help.

Here are some examples of the kinds of changes I mean. I tried to make them somewhat balanced, but some of the numbers might need tweaking. The more important thing is the skills functionality. (Format: X|Y|Z = cost|cast|recharge, attribute level 0...12)

Lead: (Golden Fox Strike?)
5|x|8 (Dagger Mastery)
Lead Attack. This attack cannot be blocked and strikes for +10...26 damage if it hits.

Off-hand: (Golden Fang Strike?)
5|x|10 (Dagger Mastery)
Off-hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits, target foe suffers a deep wound for 0...10 seconds.

Off-hand: (Black Spider Strike?)
5|x|8 (Dagger Mastery)
Off-hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17 damage and target foe is poisoned for 1...9 seconds.

Off-hand: (Malicious Strike?)
5|x|8 (Dagger Mastery)
Off-hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +1...13 damage. If it hits a foe suffering from a condition, it deals an additional +3...15 damage and results in a critical hit.

Dual [Elite]: (Twisting Fangs?)
10|x|8 (Dagger Mastery)
Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If this attack hits you deal +10...26 damage and inflict a deep wound for 3...13 seconds.

Melee Attack: (No current counterpart?)
5|1/2|12 (Dagger Mastery or Critical Strikes)
Melee Attack. If this attack hits it interrupts target foe's current action. If target foe was casting a spell, that foe is dazed for 1...4 seconds.

Stance: (No current counterpart?)
10|x|15 (Critical Strikes)
Stance. For 1...7 seconds you attack 15% faster. This stance is refreshed whenever you land a critical hit.

Stance: (No current counterpart?)
5|x|15 (Shadow Arts)
Stance. For 0...12 seconds you move 25% faster and have a 25% chance to block attacks.

Stance: (No current counterpart?)
5|x|12 (Critical Strikes)
Stance. For 1...7 seconds you move 33% faster.

Utility: (Caltrops?)
5|1/4|8 (Shadow Arts)
Spell. Target foe and up to 0...2 adjacent foes are crippled for 2...6 seconds. This spell has half the normal range.

Utility: (Disrupting Dagger?)
5|1/4|10 (Deadly Arts)
Spell. Send out a fast-moving Dagger that interrupts target foes current action. If target foe was activating a skill, that skill is disabled for an additional 0...12 seconds. This spell has half the normal range.

Utility: (Blinding Powder?)
5|3/4|12 (Shadow Arts)
Spell. Target touched foe and all adjacent foes are blinded for 1...6 seconds.

Utility: (Entangling Asp?)
5|1|15 (Deadly Arts)
Spell. Target foe is poisoned for 1...9 seconds. If target foe was moving, that foe is knocked down.

Rits are in the same boat, in that they're largely too conditional: in spirit range, affected by weapon spell, holding an item. Balancing them would require much the same as assassins: make them less conditional, and make the effects/costs/recharges on par with other classes.

DreamWind · Feb 13, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Who cares about Assassin DPS? You can do whatever you want to it and it will have no effect on the fact that the class will always be gimmicky and one dimensional. Shadowstepping has always been abused and will continue to be abused as long as it remains in the game.

I said earlier in this thread that adding the Assassin and Ritualist to GW was like adding pieces to chess. It just doesn't work. Both classes basically began as gimmicks and are still that way today.

moko · Feb 13, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

you were told to stop, so stop.

go post your funny DPS test somewhere in PvE, because if you had any practise, you would know it's very different.

as a PvE player would say:

LOL TRY IT FIRST.

Byron · Feb 14, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poise

lots of stuff

We know assassins are bad. They won't be reworked. The meta will evolve as it always has so that balanced builds work better against the popular builds, ie sin split. The problem with sin split, as Ensign has been saying of GW in general, is that it is an incredibly simple-play based build: sins kill NPCs, flag team holds stand. That's it; whatever details regarding strats are only working towards those two ends.

New VoD only encourages this mindset, certainly on the more splittable maps.

Yet, I've already been seeing some of the potential results against this meta, at least as far as ladder play goes: splitting mesmers, more defensive warrior templates, mesmer flaggers, healer's boon, etc. All is not lost, imho.

Zuranthium · Feb 15, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poise

- Limit dagger attacks to L-O-D only.

This is still problematic because of how telegraphed the Assassin is leading up to the Dual Attack and because of how superfluous the chain can sometimes be. Such as, a Shattering Assault Assassin. Look at the chain of Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike - Shattering Assault. Golden Fox Strike doesn't actually add anything to the Assassin's bar. Wild Strike already does everything needed.

If all Assassin bars could delete an attack skill for a utility skill, things would be much better. So far I still like my idea more than any other I've seen:

Only have Lead and Dual attacks. When you use a Dual attack, all of your other Dual attacks are disabled for 4 seconds.

A lot of attack skills would have to be changed/rebalanced but that would be the best direction to go if people wanted to put the effort into it.

~Z

LifeInfusion · Feb 15, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

This is still problematic because of how telegraphed the Assassin is leading up to the Dual Attack and because of how superfluous the chain can sometimes be. Such as, a Shattering Assault Assassin. Look at the chain of Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike - Shattering Assault. Golden Fox Strike doesn't actually add anything to the Assassin's bar. Wild Strike already does everything needed.

If all Assassin bars could delete an attack skill for a utility skill, things would be much better. So far I still like my idea more than any other I've seen:

Only have Lead and Dual attacks. When you use a Dual attack, all of your other Dual attacks are disabled for 4 seconds.

A lot of attack skills would have to be changed/rebalanced but that would be the best direction to go if people wanted to put the effort into it.

~Z

basically like Exhaustion Assault? Lead-Dual (kind of like Sever Artery-Gash or Cripslash-Gash)?

It would be bar compression like Falling Lotus+Dual or Palm Strike(lol)+Dual but I don't see how it would make Assassins better since they have less DPS in comparison to Spears/axes. I'd sooner run a Paragon for pressure damage than an assassin.

Zuranthium · Feb 15, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

basically like Exhaustion Assault? Lead-Dual (kind of like Sever Artery-Gash or Cripslash-Gash)?

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I don't see how it would make Assassins better since they have less DPS in comparison to Spears/axes. I'd sooner run a Paragon for pressure damage than an assassin.

There are plenty of things you can do besides damage that invoke pressure or help win the match. I do think Daggers should be a bit better, though.

~Z

Poise · Feb 15, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

We know assassins are bad. They won't be reworked. The meta will evolve as it always has so that balanced builds work better against the popular builds, ie sin split. The problem with sin split, as Ensign has been saying of GW in general, is that it is an incredibly simple-play based build: sins kill NPCs, flag team holds stand. That's it; whatever details regarding strats are only working towards those two ends.

New VoD only encourages this mindset, certainly on the more splittable maps.

Yet, I've already been seeing some of the potential results against this meta, at least as far as ladder play goes: splitting mesmers, more defensive warrior templates, mesmer flaggers, healer's boon, etc. All is not lost, imho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

This is still problematic because of how telegraphed the Assassin is leading up to the Dual Attack and because of how superfluous the chain can sometimes be. Such as, a Shattering Assault Assassin. Look at the chain of Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike - Shattering Assault. Golden Fox Strike doesn't actually add anything to the Assassin's bar. Wild Strike already does everything needed.

If all Assassin bars could delete an attack skill for a utility skill, things would be much better. So far I still like my idea more than any other I've seen:

Only have Lead and Dual attacks. When you use a Dual attack, all of your other Dual attacks are disabled for 4 seconds.

A lot of attack skills would have to be changed/rebalanced but that would be the best direction to go if people wanted to put the effort into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I don't see how it would make Assassins better since they have less DPS in comparison to Spears/axes. I'd sooner run a Paragon for pressure damage than an assassin.

@Byron - Well, what I'm hoping is that they WILL be reworked, even if it's not 100%. If sin-split is a simple-play based build it's because it uses assassins which are a simple-play based class. Anet ends up having to make game/skill balances to address builds like this, which seems to me like treating the symptoms instead of treating the problem.

@Zuranthium - As I said I agree L-O-D is a bad idea, in part for the reasons you mentioned. I don't think Anet will make any changes to this system though, because doing so would essentially mean they need to re-balance an entire class in one update; quite an undertaking. Making changes like what I suggested could easily be done a few skills at a time though, which makes it easy to implement.
How would an L-D system fix the problems associated with an L-O-D system? It's still telegraphed, just not as far in advance. If they wanted to put the effort in, as you say, getting rid of forced combos altogether would be the best direction. I just don't think thats likely to happen before GW2.

@LifeInfusion - I meant to mention this in my first post, but I think this can also be addressed via skill changes. One of the biggest reasons that a warrior can pressure and a sin can't is because warriors have easy access to useful pressure skills. Namely stances for IAS, movement, and adrenaline-management.

LifeInfusion · Feb 15, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yep.

There are plenty of things you can do besides damage that invoke pressure or help win the match. I do think Daggers should be a bit better, though.

~Z

true. Warriors don't run shock for the damage (lol). Your suggestion would make Assassins a melee utility class essentially (Disrupting Stab - interrupt, Black mantis Thrust/Leaping Mantis Sting/Mantis Touch - cripple, Horns of the Ox/Trampling Ox/Entangling Asp/Iron Palm/Scorpion Wire -knockdown, Wild Strike - stance removal, Shattering Assault - enchantment removal, Exhausting Assault - exhaustion, Golden Skull Strike - daze, Vampiric Assault - life steal, Disrupting Dagger - spell interrupt) since duals are used in chain for the kill. Aside from stance/enchantment removal, exhaustion, and knockdown, dagger attacks without combos generally aren't strong enough to warrant using outside of melee spike. Daze might be an option, but condition removal is rampant. Spikey skills like Unsuspecting Strike, Jungle Strike (1/2 activation with high conditional damage), Fox Fangs (1/2 activation unblockable) all suggest that the Assassin was meant to melee spike.

Hidden Caltrops, Shroud of Silence, Shadowy Burden, Shadow Shroud, Siphon Strength, Mark of Insecurity, Enduring Toxin/Shameful Fear, Spirit Walk, Swap, and Mark of Death are generally skills that I'd wish the assassins geared toward (mesmer with a damage tilt instead of shutdown orientation). Shadow steps are sort of broken with 5attack skill combos but otherwise they are a good addition. Everything else is basically a rehash of the other professions (e.g. Assault Enchantments/Life Enchantment/Expunge Enchantments/Signet of Twilight).

The thing is that assassins have little staying power with their almost-caster armor while Paragons have the DPS (14-27), spike (cruel spear = ranged eviscerate), and support (entire motivation/command lines) on a 96 armor platform. Other than knockdown and snares (Dark Prison/Siphon Speed/Shadow Prison), there is nothing Paragons, Dervishes or warriors cannot do better. Warriors carry shock often times, so not even the knockdown is as good. The skills need to be reworked so they are not a rehash of the same old...but more conditional.

In other words, the assassins, if made into utility...need to have their utility not completely killed by block/blind/hexes.

Hyper Cutter · Feb 15, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poise

One of the biggest reasons that a warrior can pressure and a sin can't is because warriors have easy access to useful pressure skills. Namely stances for IAS, movement, and adrenaline-management.

Unfortunately, Anet seems deadset on keeping IAS's away from sins...

JR · Feb 15, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poise

One of the biggest reasons that a warrior can pressure and a sin can't is because warriors have easy access to useful pressure skills. Namely stances for IAS, movement, and adrenaline-management.

Rubbish. Lack of a decent IAS is a tiny consideration. Sins simply aren't designed for pressure in any way at all, be that armor, attack skills, or class strengths.

wuzzman · Feb 15, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

JR right...OMG runs to the hills

Slic · Feb 15, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Assassins were designed to be ASSASSINS... Killing by surprise, killing important targets, and doing it fast. Apparently everyone has problems with this...