Curse

Captain Robo · Feb 11, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

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Dude at least I tried to spend some time and collect some data that I acknowledged not being perfect.

All you guys are doing is flame and point fingers, but I never see anyone of you bother do prove the other way around by doing the same tests...

Sorry if I sounded harsh.

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I guess it takes too much "time" ah?

I'm between classes right now. I'll do that later.

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If you're so smart do the "proper" damage tests and argument your position with them... If the two professions are not comparable because they're too different (not because of any error), at least stop flaming people who argument their statements.

What is funny is that people still don't get it that if you use the same standards/measurement tools the actual results showing differences between two things are the same (not the absolute results, but that's irrelevant when you compare things).

A proper damage test would go something like this:

Pick a variety of popular builds and specs. For warriors, I don't think it gets any better than the shock axe for testing purposes. Assassins are a bit more difficult to test in this respect because their best damage combos involve Horns of the Ox, which doesn't KD the Master of Damage unless you kill the adjacent targets... suffice to say it gets really annoying.

At any rate, I'm a fan of the following Assassin spec:

11+1+1 Dagger Mastery
12+1 Critical Strikes
Rest wherever.

Then your damage combo is GPS-Hotox-FS-TF.

You could also run
12+1+1 Dagger Mastery
9+1 Critical Strikes
If you include Falling Lotus over Falling Spider, but that's really a matter of preference.

Whereas your warrior build would be

12+1+1 Axe Mastery
12+1 Strength

Pick a "standard" set of weapons for all test trials. Vampiric is okay, as it is a static damage increase, but DO NOT use sundering under any circumstances. That introduces a random element into the testing process and will mess with your results.

Run numerous trials of auto-attacking the Master of Damage in order to properly gauge your DPS. You will find that daggers are rather lackluster in this respect. Keep track of the information he gives you upon death.

Then try spikes. This will be tedious for the assassin, as you have to kill the two adjacent targets.

Your spike as an assassin will consist of two parts: your last dual attack, and condition damage. Since you optimally want to kill the target as quickly as possible, you need to differentiate between the degeneration damage and final spike damage.

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I said it before... if the result shows 2 and 4 using method1 and it shows 4 and 8 using method2 (for both analyzed objects) it's practically the same...

This may be true sometimes, but it is not true for all instances. Remember, part of the experimental process is running enough trials to prove to yourself that the experiment is correct. When I was comparing 14 Axe Mastery vs 16 Axe Mastery, I wanted the disparity between the two specs to be so small that 14 Axe Mastery would be the obvious choice beyond all doubt.

It ended up being bigger than I initially thought. I kept running trials, and it eventually approached a real difference. I was disappointed that my original hypothesis was wrong, but it was valuable information nonetheless. 14 Axe Mastery is still the correct choice 90% of the time though, as the extra 30~ or so damage you gain from 16 is negligible if you're too dead to swing the axe.

But you get the idea.

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Because Critical Strikes is a better DPS primary than Strength that's all. I place no value judgements like "horrible" on either. People also don't necessarily run max points in a weapon mastery either. eg. People have been using RaO thumpers on front lines with only 12 in hammer for years.

That's because thumpers also bring a pet, spammable knockdowns with deep wound, and RaO is still a powerhouse. They piss damage.

Not to mention that they can chain daze with the pet. Thumpers are in a whole different league.

Martin Firestorm · Feb 11, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

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Originally Posted by Zamochit

How would people feel about changing shadowstepping so that it caused exhaustion?

That's way too severe. Maybe bleeding or even cracked armor for up to 10 secs, but you can't gimp such a basic sin mechanic to the point where sins avoid it, which exhaustion would.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 11, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Guys, this discussion about assassin pressure is retarded and it needs to stop. Warriors can pressure effectively because they have a strong bull's strike along with rush and frenzy. Assassin's don't have anything close to the kinds of threats that these possess (or at least can't use them effectively), and therefore even if their DPS is high they can't pressure because they can't put up those kinds of threats.

About adding exhaustion to shadow steps, I fail to see why eliminating shadow steps from the game is a bad thing. And either way, many of the shadow step mechanics are so strong that people would just run radiants and gimp their energy just so that they could continue to exploit them.

erk · Feb 11, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

That's because thumpers also bring a pet, spammable knockdowns with deep wound, and RaO is still a powerhouse. They piss damage.

Not to mention that they can chain daze with the pet. Thumpers are in a whole different league.

Yes we all know how thumpers work, after all they have been around much longer than RaO. My point was that you don't need your physical weapon to come from your primary profession, you make up the difference elsewhere with your pet, critical strikes, whatever.

Captain Robo · Feb 11, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

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Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

About adding exhaustion to shadow steps, I fail to see why eliminating shadow steps from the game is a bad thing. And either way, many of the shadow step mechanics are so strong that people would just run radiants and gimp their energy just so that they could continue to exploit them.

Rather than eliminate the mechanic entirely, I think it needs a good, solid nerf more than anything.

Take Shadow Walk, for instance. I think this skill epitomizes shadow-stepping done right. An opponent can do something about it, it has a drawback along with a lengthy recharge, but it still allows you to teleport to your target. Furthermore, in order to make it truly effective, you also need to bring Dash. I think Shadow Walk is as balanced as the mechanic will ever get, and should therefore be the posterchild skill for shadow stepping.

The problem attributed to shadow stepping comes from the skills which not only allow you to do it drawback-free, but also give you a huge bonus for doing so. Elite shadowsteps (Aura of Displacement notwithstanding), Augury of Death, Dark Prison, hell... pretty much any shadowstep other than Return, Shadow Walk, and Death's Charge are degenerative to the game.

Aura of Displacement probably deserves harsher criticism than I give it, admittedly I do have a soft spot for this skill, but I still can't accept that it needs to be nerfed in the face of how easy it is to remove! A mesmer has but to look at you, and you're completely at his mercy.

The way I see it:

Aura of Displacement should be hands-down the best Shadowstep if you want to spend your elite slot on it.

Your next option is Shadow Walk / Dash

Followed by Death's Charge.

Keeping these skills in the game, while reworking the problematic shadowstepping skills could prove beneficial. If not, then I guess it's a mechanic that I would sorely miss, as it was a good idea ruined by shitty implementation. Of course, this is purely hypothetical.

moriz · Feb 11, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

critical strikes hardly make up for not having 12 in axe. it works well enough with scythes, but we're not discussing dervishes here.

either way, critical strikes will never "make up" for the lower damage, especially since sins cannot bring the same level of melee threat as a warrior.

Dominator1370 · Feb 11, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

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Originally Posted by erk

Yes we all know how thumpers work, after all they have been around much longer than RaO. My point was that you don't need your physical weapon to come from your primary profession, you make up the difference elsewhere with your pet, critical strikes, whatever.

RaO is actually a perfect choice for this argument, namely because RaO was a stupid idea for a skill. The best way to make a non-Warrior build viable while using a Warrior weapon is to find some skill that should never have been created and toss in the Warrior weapon.

In the normal course of events, it's true you could theoretically create a build using a Warrior weapon that's better run on a /W. Of course, to do this, you'd have to not only make up for the weapon mastery you're losing (no small thing), but you'd have to replace Bulls Strike, Rush, and in most cases Frenzy. I haven't seen the numbers, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that Critical Strikes could out-damage Strength with, say, an axe. Is the discrepancy enough to merit running Critical Strikes over the extra Axe Mastery? Not sure, maybe. Is it big enough to justify losing Bulls Strike, Rush, and Frenzy? For some reason, I doubt it. If you're going to run a Warrior weapon on a non-Warrior, it'd damn well be better than running it on a Warrior, and with the standard Warrior skills, that's a lofty proposition.

wuzzman · Feb 11, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

If anet just gave the npc's something like savage shot or a short duraction whirling defense, 2/3 this thread wouldn't exist.

JR · Feb 11, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

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Originally Posted by wuzzman

If anet just gave the npc's something like savage shot or a short duraction whirling defense, 2/3 this thread wouldn't exist.

That makes no sense at all.

moriz · Feb 11, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

i think me means that if archers can interrupt and block, assassins will go the way of the dodo bird, and we won't be discussing them.

JR · Feb 11, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

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Originally Posted by moriz

i think me means that if archers can interrupt and block, assassins will go the way of the dodo bird, and we won't be discussing them.

Sins already take rigor, and it would hurt almost all normal split templates just as much anyway (Rangers, Warriors). People would just be encouraged to run more E/Ds. I don't see why an interrupt should give them that much trouble either.

And as the Ghostly Hero proved: Giving NPCs interrupts in PvP is just dumb.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 11, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Rather than eliminate the mechanic entirely, I think it needs a good, solid nerf more than anything.

Take Shadow Walk, for instance. I think this skill epitomizes shadow-stepping done right. An opponent can do something about it, it has a drawback along with a lengthy recharge, but it still allows you to teleport to your target. Furthermore, in order to make it truly effective, you also need to bring Dash. I think Shadow Walk is as balanced as the mechanic will ever get, and should therefore be the posterchild skill for shadow stepping.

The problem attributed to shadow stepping comes from the skills which not only allow you to do it drawback-free, but also give you a huge bonus for doing so. Elite shadowsteps (Aura of Displacement notwithstanding), Augury of Death, Dark Prison, hell... pretty much any shadowstep other than Return, Shadow Walk, and Death's Charge are degenerative to the game.

Aura of Displacement probably deserves harsher criticism than I give it, admittedly I do have a soft spot for this skill, but I still can't accept that it needs to be nerfed in the face of how easy it is to remove! A mesmer has but to look at you, and you're completely at his mercy.

The way I see it:

Aura of Displacement should be hands-down the best Shadowstep if you want to spend your elite slot on it.

Your next option is Shadow Walk / Dash

Followed by Death's Charge.

Keeping these skills in the game, while reworking the problematic shadowstepping skills could prove beneficial. If not, then I guess it's a mechanic that I would sorely miss, as it was a good idea ruined by shitty implementation. Of course, this is purely hypothetical.

I do agree with most of your post, except that I think that return has done more damage than people realize, as it pretty much completely destroyed any semblance of conditional play for monks for the longest time, and is still having its effects.

However, yes, I do think that shadow walk should be the standard that shadow steps are balanced against. Not only does it take 2 skill slots, it makes IAS stances impossible to use and has a limitation that ensures that it can't be abused (too badly) for skill-less collapses. AoD is still too strong for how easily it enables collapses IMO.

wuzzman · Feb 11, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

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Originally Posted by JR

Sins already take rigor, and it would hurt almost all normal split templates just as much anyway (Rangers, Warriors). People would just be encouraged to run more E/Ds. I don't see why an interrupt should give them that much trouble either.

And as the Ghostly Hero proved: Giving NPCs interrupts in PvP is just dumb.

I'm pretty sure rigor mortis can be made a pile of shit again.

JR · Feb 11, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

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Originally Posted by wuzzman

I'm pretty sure rigor mortis can be made a pile of shit again.

Pretty sure giving archers Whirling and Savage, and nerfing Rigor, is really the wrong way to fix the problem.

Whirling if anything hurts regular W/R splits more than Sins, because they rely even more on getting quick kills. Without the ability to frenzy an archers face off and get out quickly you are going to be at a lot more risk than shadow stepping sins. Not to mention Savage being a real pain in the ass to Warriors and Rangers with 2/4 second cast self heals.

wuzzman · Feb 11, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

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Originally Posted by JR

Pretty sure giving archers Whirling and Savage, and nerfing Rigor, is really the wrong way to fix the problem.

Whirling if anything hurts regular W/R splits more than Sins, because they rely even more on getting quick kills. Without the ability to frenzy an archers face off and get out quickly you are going to be at a lot more risk than shadow stepping sins. Not to mention Savage being a real pain in the ass to Warriors and Rangers with 2/4 second cast self heals.

reading is fundamental, whirling defense or savage shot not both. And really warriors and rangers self healing sucks anyway with out npc's with interrupts simple because the other teams ranger will most likely interrupt it. Oh and the "omg! Warriors can't use frenzy" argument is kinda sad argument.

the only reason assassins are overpowered on ganks is because npc's can't react the way a normal player would. That is no more different then saying warriors are overpowered, when your sending guys back with no way to defend themselves against melee.

JR · Feb 11, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

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Originally Posted by wuzzman

reading is fundamental, whirling defense or savage shot not both.

I don't believe I argued against the combination of the two.

The rest of your post doesn't really justify a response. Get a clue.

erk · Feb 11, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

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Originally Posted by Dominator1370

In the normal course of events, it's true you could theoretically create a build using a Warrior weapon that's better run on a /W. Of course, to do this, you'd have to not only make up for the weapon mastery you're losing (no small thing), but you'd have to replace Bulls Strike, Rush, and in most cases Frenzy. I haven't seen the numbers, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that Critical Strikes could out-damage Strength with, say, an axe. Is the discrepancy enough to merit running Critical Strikes over the extra Axe Mastery? Not sure, maybe. Is it big enough to justify losing Bulls Strike, Rush, and Frenzy? For some reason, I doubt it. If you're going to run a Warrior weapon on a non-Warrior, it'd damn well be better than running it on a Warrior, and with the standard Warrior skills, that's a lofty proposition.

I am pretty sure that's why "Way of the Master" was added in EoTN, it works very well and with 12 in critical strike you often get 3 or 4 crits in a row. It's a cheap enchant you only need to hit every minute and it's not crucial if it gets stripped. I tried a standard Eviscerate -> Agonizing -> Executioners build and it worked well. I use Nightstalkers insignia for the +15AL and Disrupting Dagger instead of shock.

DutchSmurf · Feb 12, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

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Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Not sure, maybe. Is it big enough to justify losing Bulls Strike, Rush, and Frenzy?

Why are you losing Bull's Strike and Rush? You are using /W, you can easily put both on your bar. Only problem is using something like Frenzy on an assassin. And losing Shock.

erk · Feb 12, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

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Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Why are you losing Bull's Strike and Rush? You are using /W, you can easily put both on your bar. Only problem is using something like Frenzy on an assassin. And losing Shock.

Bulls is still ok as a knockdown, just less damage. You can use Dash to cancel frenzy.

Captain Robo · Feb 12, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Erk, Dutchsmurf, Tigro:

1. Look at the attribute that Rush and Bull's Strike are tied to. Assassins cannot use these skills like a warrior can. Bull's Strike is one of the best skills in the game: cheap, autocrit, knockdown, huge damage. +5 at 0 Strength vs. +27 at 13 Strength, you do the math.

2. Critting is still a dice roll; Warrior damage is consistent. You may have a 10% better chance to critical as an A/W, but you're going to be doing less damage when you're not critting; plus, warriors get armor penetration from strength. (what was your original point again?)

I just tested it out: 12 Axe Mastery crits for 55 (against 60 AL) on a sin; 14 AM crits for 59 (against 60 AL) on a warrior. Warrior crit damage is higher; warrior normal dps is higher; therefore warrior spike damage is also higher (regardless of whatever dicerolls might be involved, warrior damage has a higher ceiling).

If the damage margin between the two seems small, consider that your A/W will have a weak-ass Bull's Strike, no capability to Frenzy without getting insta-gibbed, cannot reliably chase kiting foes (ever tried to chase someone with Dash? An 8 second Rush won't do you much good either), and has no on-demand knockdown (shock).

3. If it was viable, I assure you that it would already be seeing play.

Can we please end this discussion?