Curse

revaer · Feb 06, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

You want dagger base damage so that they are not Spike and leave right?
Thats not the only way to make them stick in for longer.
Or at least I think I see another way.

What would that another way be?

ensoriki · Feb 06, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by revaer

What would that another way be?

Theory.
Sins spike, disappear until skills recharge and come back.
Things like Moebius or SA stay around longer because they can be played longer.
Shorter recharges allow an assassin to be able to play more instead of Hit, and come back when your timers full.
Thats beside what utility buffs could possibly do to the class.

revaer · Feb 06, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Theory.
Sins spike, disappear until skills recharge and come back.
Things like Moebius or SA stay around longer because they can be played longer.
Shorter recharges allow an assassin to be able to play more instead of Hit, and come back when your timers full.
Thats beside what utility buffs could possibly do to the class.

I didn't get much out of that post but just giving them shorter recharges on skills and giving them some utility won't help fixing the class if they keep the combo system and shadowstepping. It would probably just make the class even more popular in its current, stupid form.

Byron · Feb 06, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

You take away the shadow step or the high spike damage and they will be a dead class. That's why Anet has just slowly increased costs/recharges of shadow steps, to give it some semblance of management or skill.

Sins won't change. The new VoD meta has just made them powerful again. Teams are getting wise and building a build purely for gank - 3 ineptitude mesmer sin split, for example. Some of those VoD changes need to be looked at again, imo, or else gank will become the AT challenge.

Sorry if I'm repeating other posts here, didn't wanna read the whole thing.

ensoriki · Feb 07, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by revaer

I didn't get much out of that post but just giving them shorter recharges on skills and giving them some utility won't help fixing the class if they keep the combo system and shadow stepping. It would probably just make the class even more popular in its current, stupid form.

For one, if you take the insta-gib out they can't kill people from full health anymore.
Then sins really lose their niche and become worthless right? So to fill that void in you make recharges shorter. Instead they still can't kill targets from full health in 1 chain but they can now go into the next chain quicker.
this also means target switching is a new viable option for assassin's that wasn't really there before.
Going through a combo twice also takes up a considerable amount of energy, so a sin would probably have to manage it =P.

This also helps sin's when there dual or Off hand are blocked.
They're still stopped temporarily but they can pick up the pace shortly afterwards instead of Block your shut down for 12 seconds or more.

Sin's can do
L-O-D, because now with shorter recharges, you can go through it quickly making the low damage of Leads compensated.
can go L-O-D-D and change duals depending on use.
O-D-O-D, but I think moebius should be the only way to make this viable >.>

Shorter recharges
1) makes L-O-D viable
2) allows target switching
3) means you can loosen up room on your bar to bring utility
4) makes you more energy conscious
5) makes a more consistent fighter
6) Keeps block/blind effective on assassin's, but not as powerful
7) Allows them to have a niche
8) Allows for pressure.

Differences from a warrior
Assassin's are more skill dependent
Sins use a chain.
Sins use spells with better ease
Shadow stepping
Energy conscious
block is effective on both but more so on a sin.
Can be ranged
Lower armor

and if it becomes popular I think it would be for a better reason then >.>
Also unlike increasing the base damage, the class still stays familiar to what assassin users know, so the fan base stays relatively the same and may even increase.

wuzzman · Feb 07, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

pve sins will love you ensoriki. The niche is very simple, and only has a real role in pve, ab, ra settings. Taking out low health targets really quickly. Which is all the L O D chain can do at its best. Make the L O D chain recharge quickly and then all you have L O D, shadow step, L O D, run to next target, L O D, shadow step to next low health target L O D. Really niche and your better of with hitting executioner strike on a warrior on recharge. Makes the AB, Pve, RA folks happy because they won't know the difference.

revaer · Feb 07, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

For one, if you take the insta-gib out they can't kill people from full health anymore.
Then sins really lose their niche and become worthless right? So to fill that void in you make recharges shorter. Instead they still can't kill targets from full health in 1 chain but they can now go into the next chain quicker.
this also means target switching is a new viable option for assassin's that wasn't really there before.
Going through a combo twice also takes up a considerable amount of energy, so a sin would probably have to manage it =P.

Why do they have to have a niche in the first place and why do you insist on keeping the fragile combo system that takes up too much space on a skill bar?

The point of this thread is not how to make sins and rits better while keeping their current design.

wuzzman · Feb 07, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

without the combo system you might as well give warriors daggers, mesmers and necros deadly arts and shadow arts.

Cirian · Feb 08, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

without the combo system you might as well give warriors daggers, mesmers and necros deadly arts and shadow arts.

You mean give rangers daggers, to replace all the Naruto's with Drizzt's!

wuzzman · Feb 09, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

actually not that bad of an idea, actually give the poor rangers their "melee" attribute that they steal from warriors.

Kenru · Feb 09, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Without claiming to be an expert on PvP theory or assassins, has anyone considered making the attack chains not target specific? I think this along with other changes possibly grants other avenues to pursue to fix the class.

LifeInfusion · Feb 09, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Idea to buff the assassin: fixing skill chains and shadowsteps that break movement

Everyone knows Assassins use Lead-Offhand-Dual chains. Their strength is in the dual attack obviously, since the effect applies twice within a 1/8 second timespan, which is as fast as a mesmer interrupt on 15 Fast casting. A prime example of the strength of a dual attack is Trampling Ox. A normal attack skill or knockdown ala Gale, Shock, or Bull's Strike would knock down once for 2 seconds (3 seconds if it is a warrior with Stonefist Gauntlets). This means on-hit protection is negated (Reversal of Fortune) since like pre-nerf conjures and vampiric upgrades, the damage is dealt in packets. As such it helps skills such as empathy/spiteful spirit/Shielding hands.

Assassins rely overwhelmingly on their attack skills and spells due to the low base damage of daggers. It matters not that they have critical strikes to trigger critical hits, since criticals on daggers are not that high in comparison to any other weapon.

The attack chains are strong in that they unload in seconds and are frontloaded unlike adrenaline (much like imbalanced caster spikes). Killing attack chains means killing the assassin's damage capability essentially. This spawns the need for skills like Shield Bash, Burning Shield, and Shield of Force which block attack SKILLS instead of blocking attacks.

Even though dual attacks are strong, they are weak and gimmicky due to reliance on the Lead-Offhand-Dual chain. Much like the Sever->Artery Gash or more commonly, Crippling Slash->Gash combination, if the first attack is blocked or caught by blind then the combo is totally useless. In the case of daggers, the attack is shown as a "miss" to the assassin.

This problem would not be as bad if blocking, which stops combos all together due to the lead being blocked, were not so prevalant. But that is the state of anti-melee. Blind and miss hexes are only a threat when mid-combo before the dual attack since if applied before the lead, they can just be removed.

All offhand and dual attacks if used out of sequence of Lead-offhand-dual, will be wasted even if they recharge instantly due to the strain on the feeble energy pool of the assassin. That is if you use it out of sequence, not if you get hexed/blinded/blocked. Compare this to something like dismember--> agonizing chop where the effectiveness is not mitigated in any case.

The 15 second delay on Offhand attacks before disappearing should definitely be upped to a minimum of 20 seconds for starters. Consider adrenaline is lost after 20 seconds and that it can be maintained by wailing on someone else or even a spirit or minion.

Solution 1:
A solution to this would be half-conditional skills akin to Mind Blast. Have the skill do an effect that is semi-trivial (in this case, low fire damage) with an effect that relies on comboing. This would give incentive to combos but not make it overly reliant on them. Lead attacks can stay the same since they are not reliant on things. Golden Phoenix Strike, Black Spider Strike, Falling Lotus Strike, Falling Spider, Palm Strike (elite and therefore seldom seen), and prenerf Black Lotus Strike are prime examples of skills that have tried to alleviate the issue of getting to the Dual attack "money" which triggers twice with 1/8 second in between .
Basically make duals work even without combo, but with less potency. In this case make the double strike of duals normal attack speed in between attacks instead of approximately 1/8 second to facilitate mesmer interruption.

An example of this would be Rending Sweep. If the target is hexed then the additional effect takes place but if the target is not hexed it still does SOMETHING.

e.g. Lead attack -> Offhand->Dual would give +130 damage and whatever effects
Lead misses midswing --> offhand connects --> dual connects
offhand does nothing, Dual has half potency (only one strike provided it is not blocked or miss hexed) instead of "miss"-ing

for this example, Twisting Fangs. A lead (let's say...Golden Fox strike misses due to miss hex), monk removes hex off you and you use offhand (wild strike) and the offhand does nothing but still counts as an offhand instead of missing (with none of the effects), you use a dual and it connects but does half the effect (in this case only bleeding, deepwound, and damage once instead of 2x bleeding, deepwound, and damage).

Solution 2:
Another solution is removal of the entire "miss" if you don't connect your lead thing. Basically if you execute a lead and it misses, cause the offhand to not allow you to use it. This is instead of attempting it, having it "miss", and then having it waste energy in the current usage.

Solution 3:
Make recharges lower on offhand and dual attacks that require chains and equalize their potency a bit since everyone uses lead-skipping attacks or wild strike. Wild Strike is renown for being the offhand attack to use for overall builds because it packs a high damage and utility in the form of stance removal all on top of being the lowest recharging offhand. Death Blossom is incredibly shallow but its usage with Moebius Strike (and lowest recharge outside of Moebius Strike builds) has lead to its widespread usage. Dancing Daggers is the skill that assasins use for unblockable leads with no conditionality and it is on 5 cooldown. Things need to compete or there will be no diversity.

Wild Strike --> reduce damage to half current value (+10...30...35 to +5...15...18), since it has stance removal (deadly versus Rangers), is unblockable, and is on 4 cooldown

Fox Fangs --> outclassed by Wild Strike since they have pretty much the same point. 1/2 activation on 1 second attack speed of daggers is not going to help this be better than Wild Strike. This needs to have its recharge lowered to around 4-5 seconds to be viable. Keep in mind this still hinges on the lead attack so it will not imbalance anything.

Lotus Strike --> lower 10 energy to 5, 12 recharge to 6 (ala Critical Strike), and then hit the energy gain 5...17...20 to 1...7...10 to make it balanced. It should only return enough for a dual attack, really. Except for Shattering Assault and Twisting Fangs, all duals are 5 energy so there is no point in giving it +10 net energy.

Jungle strike --> high damage, not too happy about 1/2 activation on it.

Golden Fang Strike --> give it small bonus damage like +1...9...11

Repeating Strike --> change "misses" (which is common due to blurred vision and blind) to "blocked" and up damage to +20...40...45 (since it is only really usable with Way of Empty Palm and you are unlikely to use dual attacks often with it on a skillbar) ...this is a shallow skill

Moebius Strike --> add "cannot be blocked", up recharge to 5 seconds to stop Moebius-DeathBlossom spam while allowing it to remain viable for normal chains

Golden Skull Strike --> Option 1: unconditional daze, cannot be blocked if you are enchanted; Option 2: add +10...30...35 damage so it isn't useless against noncaster foes

Temple Strike --> needs 1/2 second activation (though 15 energy is really expensive)

Nonstandard offhands are generally okay:
Black Spider Strike --> needs lower recharge now that Deadly Arts has been hit hard but it is fine

Falling Lotus Strike --> needs a recharge buff to 8 or 10 seconds and then energy nerfed so that you only gain 5 net energy from it at 15 dagger mastery

Falling Spider --> okay

Golden Phoenix Strike --> okay, but 8 recharge is okay

Mantis Touch --> insane cripple duration

Dual attacks:
Nine Tail Strike --> keep 1/2 activation, decrease recharge to 4-5 seconds to allow synergy with Golden Fox strike--> Wild strike combos (this would help with block-heavy meta)

Exhausting Assault --> an oddity that has potency with low recharge leads...this should not be buffed to avoid exhaustion spam pervading the game

Death Blossom --> 3 recharge...almost imbalanced with Moebius Strike if it had anything other than damage

Horns of the Ox --> up +damage to +5...17...20, change range to nearby or earshot (since adjacent is unlikely for non-healball team setups)

Blades of Steel--> okay, but the mechanic is tedious because it requires a bar of recharging dagger attacks (gimmicky)

Trampling Ox --> okay given the knockdown (8 recharge)

Shattering Assault --> up recharge to 10-12sec, lower energy to 5

Vampiric Assault --> increase recharge to 10 (remember this is life steal that goes through protection and strikes for nearly 80)

LEAD ATTACKS:

Jagged Strike --> make it do additional +1...9...11 damage against foes already bleeding to add synergy with Sword warriors

Desperate Strike --> reduce to 4 recharge, split the damage. +8...20...30. If you have less than 50...74...80% Health, you deal an additional +8...20...30 damage.

Leaping Mantis Sting --> reduce to 5 recharge, maybe 1/2 second activation to catch moving foes easier ala Protector's Strike, reduce cripple duration to 2...7...8 (so it isn't permanent cripple)

Golden Lotus Strike --> cut recharge to 8

Dancing Daggers --> considering this triggers Reversal of Fortune (and not Spirit Bond), needs lower damage by 33% from 5...29...35 to 3...19...23 [from 105 to 69 damage inline with a spam skill]

OTHER PROBLEMS:
On top of the Lead-Offhand-Dual attack problem, even the attack "Malicious Strike" has conditionality.

Malicious strike --> This attack results in a critical hit [ala Wild blow]. You deal +10...26...30 damage if this attack hits a foe suffering from a Condition.

Gimmicks like assassin casters have pervaded low level PVP (Alliance Battles/Hero battles/Random and Tema arenas) because of ease of use and the lack of conditionality on attack skill chains. When you think about it, the root cause of these build is the weakness of the assassin: low armor on a melee class makes them only spike oreinted.

SHADOW STEPS:
make them +100%, 200%, or even 300% faster movement speed buffs (as long as it doesn't just pseudo-teleport) ala Dash to enable telegraphing/reading enemy movement rather "haha I break the rules of movement and I'm in your base now" or "haha I bash your monk now ".

In other words, make the visual so that it is as though the character is moving really fast to the target , rather than appearing in a cloud of smoke.

This would be easy to do in terms of programming, as it involves only replacing the animation of the shadow step with that of Dash and then making the character not disappear during the shadow step.

If this is a problem, maybe make shadow steps simply 200-1000% speed buffs (opposite of 50-90% slower) for 1-3 seconds, bypassing speed buff cap. Keep in mind the range of shadowsteps is aggro range, hence the 1-2 seconds of 1000% speed.

Note: 0.10 normal speed is -90% speed so 10x speed is 1000% and technically 3 seconds at 150% (+50%) speed is spell range. Fundamentally you are shaving off 2.75seconds and the possibility of pre-kite and pre-prot compared to Dash.

SKILLS:

Augury of Death --> remove shadow step, increase recharge and/or activation (it beats out Phantom Pain and Accumulated Pain for "ranged" deepwound). Keep in mind the deepwound and shadow step allows for imbalanced caster spike. Somewhat unpredictable shadow stepping is akin to pre-balance Heart of Shadow and Viper's Defense.

Flashing Blades --> reduce energy to 5, duration to 2...12...15, recharge to 15 [more resistance to stance removal]

Mark of Insecurity --> not sure what to make of it...maybe a spell-based stance ender instead of 50% faster expiration and keep the 50% ending of enchantments

Sadist Signet --> add the hex clause: You gain 10...34...40 Health for each Condition on target foe and additional 10...34...40 Health if that foe is under a hex.

Signet of Shadows --> reduce recharge to 15 (to match Signet of Toxic Shock) keep in mind blind is hard to apply on a pvp assassin (this is an indirect buff to PvE assassins with Sneak Attack)

Siphon Strength --> reduce to 5 energy

Dark Apostasy --> reduce energy loss by 33% from 10...5...4 energy to 7...4...3

Fox's Promise --> cut activation to 1/2, recharge to 10 [this is elite!]

Locust's Fury --> useless outside of Conjures/Brutal Weapon and such, buff to 5 energy, 1/4 activation

Seeping Wound --> plain bad.

Shadow Meld --> change to 5 energy

Signet of Malice --> You are cured of bleeding, poison. [to help with warriors/rangers] For each Condition suffered by target foe, you lose one Condition.

Signet of Twilight --> Target foe loses one enchantment. For each Hex on target foe, that foe loses one additional Enchantment.

Wastrel's Collapse --> remove "This Hex ends prematurely if that foe uses a Skill." and replace with "This Hex ends prematurely if that foe uses a spell." [to keep the Wastrel's Theme] At least then it can be used for linebacking physicals

Way of the Assassin --> remove "if under the effects of an enchantment"

Viper's Defense: "Stance. All adjacent foes are Poisoned for 5...17...20 seconds. For 8 seconds, the next time you are struck, you take half damage and all adjacent foes are struck for 5...41...50 piercing damage." instead of "Spell. All adjacent foes are Poisoned for 5...17...20 seconds, you Shadow Step to a nearby random location."

Heart of Shadow --> "you Shadow Step to nearest ally or party member within earshot" instead of "Shadow Step to a random nearby location." [15sec recharge balanced due to it being non-targetted but random]

Shadow Form --> "Form. All stances are removed and spells are disabled for 5...17...20 seconds. For 5...17...20 seconds, you take no damage from spells and you have 75% chance to block. (10 energy, 1 cast, 45 recharge)"

In summary:
Reduce attack chain dependence by reducing single use potency (such as energy gain and high +damage).

Buff dagger attack recharges so that spike is less a requirement for assassins to be even be useful. Keep in mind without attack skills assassin DPS is pretty much lower than flare-spam.

Make Flashing Blades viable so Assassins don't have to always shadow step.

Make shadow steps into extremely fast speed buffs instead of "O look here I am now in your backline". [makes them show their target]

Hit Augury of Death assassin caster spike.

Ultimately I think without the element of "who is the assassin targetting" the protting becomes easier and chains more fragile.

Feel free to disagree with me if you disagree. XD

tigros · Feb 10, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

I am impressed there are people who really go through a thinking process before talking... Good job detailing the changes and good job supporting them with arguments. From my point of view I agree with all you've said, although I feel you've been a bit too generous with the skills.

lacasner · Feb 10, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

@ LifeInfusion:
Great ideas, and good job actually trying to fix the sin class instead of screaming away its death like a little angry kid. Kudos to you.

LifeInfusion · Feb 10, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Addendum to previous post:

Quote:

Desperate Strike --> reduce to 4 recharge, split the damage. +8...20...30. If you have less than 50...74...80% Health, you deal an additional +8...20...30 damage.

On second thought that is +60 on 4 cooldown... so probably 50...74...80% health should change to 20...35...50% health or flat 50%.

I think the "instagib combos" are not really as strong as people say they are due to Blinding Surge (mitigated with Assassin's remedy), Blurred Vision (deadly), Ward against melee, Spirit Bond, Guardian (sort of), Weapon of Warding,and Protective Spirit (outside of knockdown locks). They are just as fragile as Eviscerate but with no adrenaline build. Keep in mind that adrenaline is largely gained by Enraging Charge and autoattacks and Bull's Strike has pretty much the same effect. Also,

It's a given that Warriors autoattack damage does more than Assassin dagger autoattack damage. That is why +30 on a dagger attack is not that impressive compared to +30 on a warrior attack (keep in mind people run 60 armor casters with survivor insignias so it only really matters when shields are used). Scythes are a prime example of the base damage versus bonus damage phenomenon. Most scythe attacks have +20 with +30-40 from Reaper's Sweep [elite], Irresistible sweep (not that viable with prot monks), Reap Impurities (10 energy), and Victorious sweep.
As for the people citing Ensign's damage article on Elementalists versus Warriors. Keep in mind that Elementalists do not have critical strikes and zealous daggers. Nor does elemental damage ignore armor for the most part outside of Energy Blast (very conditional), Obsidian Flame, and Magnetic Surge.

Some skills that I missed:
Way of the Fox --> make "attacks" into "attack skills"
Spirit Walk --> make this 3 recharge to disincentive Spirit Spam
Shroud of Distress --> instead of making this passive and "maintain at all costs so you don't get bashed in by linebackers", "For 30...54...60 seconds, if you are below 50% Health, you have a 75% chance to block attacks." (10 enegry/1 cast/45 recharge) into "For 8...13...15 seconds, if you are below 50% Health, you have a 75% chance to block attacks." (5 energy, 1 cast, 15 recharge)

================================================== =========================
About Ritualists...

Spirits are slow to cast, fragile, and immobile. That is a given. The dilemma is balancing them so that Oath-Shot or Ritual Lord spirit spam does not become viable. Another problem is how Spawning Power doesn't do much of anything outside of Spirits. I recall I suggested a 2% weapon spell increase in duration which marginally made things better.

Weapon spells don't stack, so you're pretty much relegated to using the ones that are powerful (Warmonger's is an example of this). They can be interrupted or energy denied but that is not good enough of a balance mechanism. Being non-removable is a fallacy in design if the effect is powerful, so one thing that could help is making the elementalist skill "Rust" affect weapon spells (water eles are common in PvP anyway).

If Spirits were made more active (aka lower recharge, cast, and duration) then they would not be as fragile and Oath Shot would not be viable. On top of that, Ritual Lord would be too energy heavy even with Boon of Creation.

The problem is the entire class was BUILT for stalling and as a result many if not all of the skills outside of heals are passive effects. Spirits are a great example of the stalling mentality, but for holding ground they are horrible due to lack of staying power if used in a solitary setup (outside of a spirit farm). This means there are 2 ways to mitigate this problem: decrease the range, and hit the effects.

SPIRITS

All spirits:
*change from longbow range to spear range to promote better positioning instead of just putting them anywhere and making a farm OR make offense spirits melee range and "train" the target like a warrior or bone minion
*take double damage from holy/fire/lightning/earth/cold/chaos/light to facilitate easier clearing
*require a target (Binding ritual actually binds now!) instead of just making farms (except non-communing spirits)
*do dark damage if offensive spirit [non armor ignoring] equivalaent to a necromancer wanding for pressure (people don't complain about Empathy!)
*not suffer from fleshy conditions but do suffer from blind/weakness/deepwound/daze/cripple (poison/disease/bleed excluded)
*make passive spirits (Dissonance/Displacement/Disenchantment/Shadowsong) into one time use ala Destruction/Life

All defense spirits: change from close-to-Radar to earshot so that splitting is a viable anti-spirit play

Agony --> change to dark damage instead of health loss, "This Spirit dies after 30...78...90 seconds." to "This spirit dies after 10...15...20 seconds"; cut recharge to 20
Destruction --> increase to earshot, 2 cast, dark damage

Anguish --> "This Spirit's attacks deal 5...17...20 dark damage to TARGET FOE" ; "This Spirit dies after 15...39...45 seconds." to "This Spirit dies after 10...15...20 seconds and has 10 health degeneration while attacking."; cut energy to 15, recharge to 30
Anguished was Lingwah --> "This Spirit's attacks deal 5...25...30 dark damage to NEAREST non-spirit FOE. This spirit dies when target hits 33% health." 20 recharge
Pain --> "This Spirit's attacks deal 5...25...30 dark damage to TARGET FOE. This spirit dies when target hits 33% health." change to dark damage (not armor ignoring), 20 recharge
Bloodsong--> "Attacks by that Spirit steal up to 5...21...25 Health from TARGET FOE." in channeling, so it is ok [not found of life steal]

Disenchantment --> totally imbalanced against prots and passive, so this cannot be viable in current mechanics ...make attacks once every 10 seconds OR "This Spirit deals 5...17...20 damage to TARGET FOE and TARGET FOE loses one Enchantment. This spirit dies." (15 energy, 2 cast, 15 recharge)
Displacement --> totally imbalanced against melee pressure due to passive 75% block. Possibly change energy to 10, recharge to 15 and cast to 2, "block next attack skill for all party members in earshot".
Dissonance --> totally imbalanced due to nearly constant interruption, make attacks once every 5 seconds OR "This Spirit deals 5...17...20 damage to TARGET FOE and all foes in the area. Target FOE struck by its attack is interrupted. This spirit dies." (15 energy, 1/2 cast, 15 recharge)
Shadowsong --> Blindness is extremely strong, make attacks once every 4 seconds; decrease recharge to 30 OR "This Spirit deals 5...17...20 damage to TARGET FOE and causes Blindness for 1...5...6 seconds. This spirit dies." (10 energy, 1 cast , 15 recharge)
Shelter --> [currently useless as prot] earshot, 15 energy, 2 cast, 20 recharge (keep in mind this will last about 5 seconds)
Wanderlust --> imbalanced if it was viable, decrease to 3 cast "Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. Target foe and all adjacent foes are knocked down if attacking and this Spirit dies." (10 energy, 3 cast, 20 recharge)

Soothing --> 15 energy, loses 75...51...45 Health whenever a foe uses an adrenaline skill.
Earthbind --> pretty useless, decrease cast to 2, recharge to 30, "All non-Spirit foes moving slower than normal are struck for 15...51...60 earth damage. Whenever this happens, this Spirit loses 50...30...25 Health. This Spirit dies after 15...39...45 seconds." (15 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge) [reminds me of corral]
Restoration --> not even worth thinking about fixing it in it's current state without total redo

Empowerment --> reduce cast time to 2, change functionality to "All allies within its range gain 10 Energy if under 66% health. This spirit dies."
Life --> decrease cast time to 2 [the functionality is when it ends anyway and partywide healing is stronger with Protective was Kaolai]
Recovery --> "This Spirit dies after 10...18...20 seconds." ; recharge lowered to 15
Preservation --> [party wide healing is brainless so this could provide that role] party healing buff; earshot...change to "Every 8 seconds, this Spirit heals all non-spirit allies under 50% health in earshot for 10...94...115 Health. This Spirit dies after 40 seconds."
Recuperation --> [passive as can be] 25 energy is quite expensive, lower to 15 energy, 20 recharge, and 2 cast time 15...39...45 duration to 8...20...22
Rejuvenation--> [equivalent to roughly 5regen at 15 restoration] half decent now after a few buffs
Union --> reduce to earshot...solid, small effect

WEAPON SPELLS:
Weapon of Shadow --> "Whenever that ally is struck by an attack, that ally's attacker becomes Blinded for 5 seconds." to "The next time target ally is struck by an attack skill, that ally's attacker becomes Blinded for 5 seconds." ; reduce recharge to 8
Weapon of Warding --> "For 5...9...10 seconds target ally has a Weapon of Warding that grants target ally +2...4...4 Health regeneration and 33% damage reduction versus physical and elemental damage" [uniqueness counts when comparing professions] instead of "50% block" --> nonremovable block with no sense of positioning like Wards is a problem (see Defensive Anthem, Shields Up!)
Splinter Weapon --> increase recharge to 8 seconds, change to dark damage: "Target ally's next 1...4...5 attacks deal 5...41...50 dark damage to up to 3 adjacent foes."
Weapon of Remedy --> condition removal on use
Wailing Weapon --> "that foe is interrupted." to "that foe suffers " ; reduce recharge to 15
Warmonger's Weapon --> 10energy/1 cast/10 recharge next attack skill instead of all attacks
Ghostly weapon --> increase to 4 recharge, 3/4 cast, "cannot be blocked and deals dark damage"
Guided Weapon --> semi-ok
Nightmare weapon --> decrease recharge to 3, next attack [Vengeful weapon's offensive twin]
Resilient weapon --> remove +24 armor (armor stacking nerf), change regen to "per condition/hex" (ala Resilient was Xiko) so that once poison +bleeding hit you this is not pointless
Spirit Light Weapon --> stackable Healing Breeze lookalike, reduce to 3 recharge (since it isn't that potent)
Vengeful Weapon --> probably the most balanced
Vital Weapon --> needs duration nerf to change into a spike stopper instead of "maintain" skill
Weapon of Aggression --> nonremovable IAS does not seem to fit (other than in gimmick Spirit Strength builds)
Weapon of Fury --> ok though really conditional and passive
Weapon of Quickening --> don't know, this is as dangerous as Mantra of Recovery on mesmers...maybe move to channeling, reduce to 3/4 cast, and "target ally has 33% movement speed and attack skills recharge 33% faster" to facilitate flagrunning ritualists ; recharge to 8
Weapon of Renewal --> move to channeling
Brutal Weapon --> "attack skills" only
Sundering Weapon --> 8 recharge

ITEM SPELLS:
given inherent +10 energy to compensate for staff
if suffering weakness and knocked down = loss of item spell (give a counter...Devastating Hammer/Heavy Blow and Stoning fall in here)
10% movement penalty

Attuned was Songkai --> reduce recharge to 45 to Serpent's Quickness and/or Glyph of Swiftness is not a necessity (the only one I worry about with the knockdown counter)
Generous Was Tsungrai --> change health sacrifice to health loss to prevent Masochism abuse [what bothers me is how Vital Boon trumps this, is the health payment necessary if this is on 15 cooldown and item spells have counters?]
Blind was Mingson--> 20 base damage reduction against lightning damage
Destructive was Glaive --> "When you drop her ashes, all attacking foes in the area are struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage." instead of "When you drop her ashes, you lose all Enchantments and all foes in the area are struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage."
Energetic Was Lee Sa --> make the cast to 1, decrease energy gain on drop to +1...5...7 Energy.
Mighty was Vorizun --> increase armor to +21 [equal to spear+ shield with 9 spec]
Protective was Kaolai --> sees play, is better than currentday Light of Deliverance actually
Resilient was Xiko --> niche, but the regen could be upped to 5 so that anything other than bleeding doesn't kill you
Tranquil was Tanasen --> move to communing [help with spirits]
Vengeful was Khanhei --> lame effect as it is [way too passive]
Vocal was Sogolon --> add cannot be the target of enemy shouts and gain strike of adrenaline whenever use a weapon spell
Lively was Naomei --> wow.

OTHER Skills:
Ancestor's Rage --> change to 2 second delay [incentive for Patient Spirit] to allow for pre-prots
Caretaker's Charge --> Up recharge to 6, Change "If you are holding an item, you gain 5 Energy and 5...41...50 Health" to "If you are holding an item, you gain 5 Energy and all allied spirits within earshot 2...20...25 Health."
Armor of Unfeeling --> block attack skills (so that spirits aren't interrupt bait)
Clamor of Souls --> change "For each nearby ally, one nearby foe is struck for 10...94...115 lightning damage. (The same foe cannot be struck more than once.)" to "For each nearby ally, one foe near target foe is struck for 7...71...86 lightning damage. (The same foe cannot be struck more than once.)"
Dulled Weapon --> add "and do 30% less attack damage" [a Dervish counter] OR "Weaponspell. For 2...8...10 seconds, target ally has a Dulled Weapon that does blunt damage and knocks down foes using an adrenaline skill." [linebacking]
Feast of Souls --> change to "in earshot" and "all allied spirits" to "all spirits" [spirit counter]
Gaze of Fury --> Change "spirit" to "summoned creature", lower to 10 recharge
Ghostly Haste --> decrease to 5 energy
Ghostmirror Light --> pretty balanced if used in spirit build, but heal could use a 10-20 point increase.
Lamentation --> change to dark damage, decrease recharge to 15
Mending Grip --> reduce recharge to 3, cast time to 3/4, change to "Target ally loses one condition, and is healed for 15...63...75 Health if under the effects of a weapon Spell."
Offering of Spirit --> change "sacrifice" to lose
Renewing Memories--> "For 5...17...20 seconds, while holding an item, any weapon and item Spells you cast cost 5...29...35% less Energy." to "For 5...17...20 seconds, any weapon and item Spells you cast recharge 5...29...35% faster." [to make it fit with Renewal theme]
Reclaim Essence --> change "target allied summoned creature" to "target summoned creature"
Painful Bond --> "dark damage" [nonarmor ignoring]
Signet of Gostly Might --> "dark damage"
Signet of Spirits --> You gain 3...10...12 Energy if you are within earshot of a Spirit, otherwise you gain 2...5...6 Energy.
Soothing Memories --> 4 recharge
Soul Twisting --> "Destroy target summoned creature" instead
Spirit Boon Strike --> mediocre
Spirit Burn --> immolate with lightning damage and 6 cooldown
Spirit Channeling --> cut recharge to 20
Spirit Light --> change "sacrifice" to "lose" to prevent Masochism abuse
Spirit to Flesh --> earshot
Spiritleech aura --> fits with bloodsong
Wielder's Remedy --> ok
Wielder's strike --> good actually (provided you meet the condition)
Wielder's Zeal --> "For 10...26...30 seconds, whenever you cast a weapon Spell on an ally, you gain 1...4...5 Energy." to "For 10...26...30 seconds, whenever you cast a weapon Spell, you gain 1...4...5 Energy and target ally gains 20 health." [mini divine favor!]
Draw Spirit ---> can target enemy spirits

Plain unfixable:
Cruel was Daoshen/Grasping was Kuurong (nearby PBAOE item drop)
Defiant was Xinrae (disabling spells constantly is too strong to be balanced)
Renewing Surge (a conditional spam skill)
Xinrae's Weapon is obnoxious if it worked

Ritualists as a support profession
Evidenced by the Restoration line, they were supposed to alleviate the extreme need for prot monks. The only way that is going to happen is if the potency of prots (Shelter/Displacement/) is higher than or equal to monk key prots (Aegis/Guardian/Protective Spirit/Spirit Bond). The oxymoron here is if Ritualists have prots, they also damage through channeling and they need not invest in Spawning Power.

If you look at Ritualist prots outside of weapon of Shadow and Weapon of Warding, the prospects are grim. Pure heals are actually somewhat viable. Soothing Memories is usable with Attuned was Songkai for pure efficiency advantage but it heals no more than Orison with decent spec Divine Favor. Mending grip doesn't remove a condition unconditionally but heals unconditionally. Mend Body and Soul is the only viable heal outside of Spirit Light (which is dangerous without a spirit). Wielder's Boon relies on Weapon spells but the 1/4 cast makes it worth it. Spirit Transfer suffers from "have no spirit alive without spamming them" syndrome but that can't be remedied without fixing spirits first.

SUMMARY
Fix spirit mechanic so that spirit farms aren't possible and require more active play via targeting
Decrease range of spirits to earshot/spear range
Give more spirit insta-kills (as in they die instantly)
Decrease recharge and duration of Spirits so that Spirit Farms are not possible (since it would be too hard to maintain more than a few) and provide more interrupt opportunities

Fix splinter weapon so it isn't armor ignoring "I own archers and warriors at VoD"
Fix Warmonger's so it only applies once like pre-buff Sundering weapon
Fix weapon of shadow "I am immune to melee pressure unless you are a Melandru's Dervish"
Reduce Weapon of Warding potency by making block to 33% damage reduction [nerf to assassin instagibs]
Allow for pre-prot of Ancestor's Rage

Give Weapon spells a counter via Rust.
Make Dulled Weapon not suck

Give Item spells a counter ...loss when knocked down and suffering weakness ; 10% movement penalty
Give Item spells +10 innate energy to compensate for loss of HSR/HCT, 20% enchanting, and +10 energy from staff
Buff Item spells so that there's point to holding them

ensoriki · Feb 10, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Wild Strike --> reduce damage to half current value (+10...30...35 to +5...15...18), since it has stance removal (deadly versus Rangers), is unblockable, and is on 4 cooldown
Lets say its solution 3 with the recharge thing.
Why reduce wild strike's damage? Right now it's doing fairly well, and if you reduce its damage you just make it so that in a situation where there are few stances, or key stances you may want removed, it's a poor skill to take.
Better to just leave as is.

Fox Fangs --> outclassed by Wild Strike since they have pretty much the same point. 1/2 activation on 1 second attack speed of daggers is not going to help this be better than Wild Strike. This needs to have its recharge lowered to around 4-5 seconds to be viable. Keep in mind this still hinges on the lead attack so it will not imbalance anything.
4-5 is to little, 1/2 activation is somewhat useful, the recharge shouldn't dip below 6, maybe add an additional +5 damage to the max just so people realize it's there.

Jungle strike --> high damage, not too happy about 1/2 activation on it.
It's fine, I find the 8 recharge to long personally, it's a spike skill

Repeating Strike --> change "misses" (which is common due to blurred vision and blind) to "blocked" and up damage to +20...40...45 (since it is only really usable with Way of Empty Palm and you are unlikely to use dual attacks often with it on a skillbar) ...this is a shallow skill
I say keep the misses, and I think your +20...40...45 thing is also too high.
It comes after a Off-hand....like wild strike, meaning unblockable may not even be a problem, missing is fine.
+20...40..45, sure it's only usable with Woep but, Woep has its own issues that should be addressed. It should be in the +30 range for 12 dagger mastery around 30...35. Really you also shouldn't have to rely on Woep to be able to use it well, should have some conditional effect that gives back 1 energy or so to make it fit it's role as a spam skill.

Moebius Strike --> add "cannot be blocked", up recharge to 5 seconds to stop Moebius-DeathBlossom spam while allowing it to remain viable for normal chains
You act like Moebius-DB is killing the game, and it actually is already viable for normal chains.

Golden Skull Strike --> Option 1: unconditional daze, cannot be blocked if you are enchanted; Option 2: add +10...30...35 damage so it isn't useless against noncaster foes

I'd just reduce the recharge to about 10 for perma daze or reduce to 8 and reduce duration a bit.
Option 2: Daze spikes? fun...
Option 1: could work but....were going to need to change its name to Golden Fox stri.....wait. =P (just humor)

Temple Strike --> needs 1/2 second activation (though 15 energy is really expensive)
1/2 activation isn't going to matter much if at all.
15 energy+20 recharge is enough for this to not see play, 15 recharge just makes it more usable and 15 energy stops spamming just fine.

nine Tail Strike --> keep 1/2 activation, decrease recharge to 4-5 seconds to allow synergy with Golden Fox strike--> Wild strike combos (this would help with block-heavy meta)
Eh could be fine, I wouldn't notice the recharge thing anyways, I'd just be using it's 1/2 activation for spiking with Jungle strike and Impale.
Also with this would Jungle,NTS,impale and moebius be able to put out quick damage? Duals already hit quick, so 1/2 activation means Jungle and NTS are hitting around 200 damage in about half or 3/4th's of a second? Hit impale with that and thats 300+ damage in about 1 and 3/4ths of a second? Hit moebius since they should be past 50% from that and hit for another around 100 damage from NTS ......use with an IAS?

Death Blossom --> 3 recharge...almost imbalanced with Moebius Strike if it had anything other than damageAre you saying now its almost imbalanced?
Moebius makes it so that the 2 second recharge of DB doesn't necessarily exist once the 50% mark is met,

Horns of the Ox --> up +damage to +5...17...20, change range to nearby or earshot (since adjacent is unlikely for non-healball team setups)Horn's is not a significant problem without instigib, or at least it should not be. In which case increasing the conditional range to nearby is unnecessary. I was under the impression it was changed to prevent imbalance in the game.

Blades of Steel--> okay, but the mechanic is tedious because it requires a bar of recharging dagger attacks (gimmicky) Bos needs a change, it's an unhealthy idea.

Shattering Assault --> up recharge to 10-12sec, lower energy to 5
Skill kill

Golden Lotus Strike --> cut recharge to 8 see GLS damage is quite low,
you could decrease the recharge to 8 but that doesn't do anything significant. If the damage isn't increased it's only purpose is just to support perma-shadow.

Dancing Daggers --> considering this triggers Reversal of Fortune (and not Spirit Bond), needs lower damage by 33% from 5...29...35 to 3...19...23 [from 105 to 69 damage inline with a spam skill Note this is in deadly arts, if your using DD with daggers then you have abandoned critical strikes in which case you can get your ass handed to you. If your using a sin caster, than DD's damage is fine enough, DD is not a problem and is fine as it is right now.

Malicious strike --> This attack results in a critical hit [ala Wild blow]. You deal +10...26...30 damage if this attack hits a foe suffering from a Condition.
It's fine, the only purpose of that change is to fuel Critical agility in pve or Critical defenses in RA/pve/AB. Also nothing wrong with it being conditional, its condition is very, very easy to meet. If you want to do something for it, I don't know but that change is not needed.

SHADOW STEPS:
make them +100%, 200%, or even 300% faster movement speed buffs (as long as it doesn't just pseudo-teleport) ala Dash to enable telegraphing/reading enemy movement rather "haha I break the rules of movement and I'm in your base now" or "haha I bash your monk now ".
....Why do that when Dash is already a great IMS? And only needs a small tweak or 2 to be even better.....and 300% movement speed would be horrible..... for 1, nobody would be able to kite in time from a 300% movement speed boost anyways, and with C space it be nearly the same as shadow stepping anyways, probably the same with 200%, and probably 150% too.

Shadowsteps can stay as long as theirs suitable drawbacks. Although the removal of Shadow Prison/Dark prison would not phase me.

Note: 0.10 normal speed is -90% speed so 10x speed is 1000% and technically 3 seconds at 150% (+50%) speed is spell range. Fundamentally you are shaving off 2.75seconds and the possibility of pre-kite and pre-prot compared to Dash.
Shadow Steps need an anchor...all of them. They need to target a player in spell range (like Ride the Lightning) or, bind to a location (shadow meld, Shadow of haste), a ims of even 400% makes shadow steps seem like complete shit because you need no anchor. In the case that you want to press C space and then the button to warp an IMS of 400% would still be better because stances have no activation time, and in a 1000% IMS, you'd be on a target faster than it takes a shadow step to activate.
In HB, if you could move to Shrine A from Shrine C in 6 seconds, or....you could press shadow Meld, to anchor to shrine C, than Run to Shrine A... in 20-30 seconds, and maybe press return to shave 4/5 seconds off that.... which do you chose?
Yes after going to shrine A, you can end shadow meld and return to Shrine C, however Shadow Meld if I remember correctly still requires you to be within radar view of something....is it the location or the player you cast it? I can't remember. Which is a drawback an IMS doesn't have.
anything over 100% IMS is likely to be OP.

SKILLS:

Augury of Death --> remove shadow step, increase recharge and/or activation (it beats out Phantom Pain and Accumulated Pain for "ranged" deepwound). Keep in mind the deepwound and shadow step allows for imbalanced caster spike. Somewhat unpredictable shadow stepping is akin to pre-balance Heart of Shadow and Viper's Defense.
Just change the damn skill, the DW and the shadow step blow, the whole mechanic blows change it

Flashing Blades --> reduce energy to 5, duration to 2...12...15, recharge to 15 [more resistance to stance removal] Not significant, and it's a pve skill, thats already working in pve

Mark of Insecurity --> not sure what to make of it...maybe a spell-based stance ender instead of 50% faster expiration and keep the 50% ending of enchantments Eh, disagree, while making it remove stance's does give it benefits it has benefits of making expiration happen faster as well for stances so its a mixed bag.
Add whenever they cast/enter a stance or enchant they lose 1 (or 2) energy.
Or that whenever they enter or Lose a stance/enchant they lose 1 (or 2) energy. It's then much more usable.

Sadist Signet --> add the hex clause: You gain 10...34...40 Health for each Condition on target foe and additional 10...34...40 Health if that foe is under a hex.Your lacking a cap, which would make it the most potentially powerful Heal in the game.
Make the 10...34..40 unconditional and then an additional 10...34..40 for each condition or hex on the target (instead of seperately, just so it's not confusing) and have a cap of maximum 160? (health).

Signet of Shadows --> reduce recharge to 15 (to match Signet of Toxic Shock) keep in mind blind is hard to apply on a pvp assassin (this is an indirect buff to PvE assassins with Sneak Attack)
While hard to apply with a pvp sin....you have team mates, and in which case this gets even stronger with a blind inducer on your team,and can be usable as a gimmick by casters to terrorize in low order pvp. it already has the benefit of having unconditional damage on it (though low), won't be as gimmicky as it would be on casters at 15 recharge, but means you can organize a spike on a target with your ele.

Siphon Strength --> reduce to 5 energy
Doesn't matter at all...or atleast not much...for sins.
it already boost crit rate which synergizes with primary attribute allowing for easy refueling of energy.
You could fix the duration to 20, or increase the damage reduction even higher (it's already reducing almost all melee to 0, increasing really just makes the dervish truly affected by it).
I know from using it already that the 10 energy isn't anything for an assassin with crit strikes, and that a DA focused sin Should already have energy-management from somewhere else to mitigate this.

Dark Apostasy --> reduce energy loss by 33% from 10...5...4 energy to 7...4...3 Makes it more exploitable, with the inclusion of Way of the Master, theres already ways to make this work similar to Avatar of Grenth before the change to block.
Also Assault Enchantments does what this does except all at once with no energy loss

Locust's Fury --> useless outside of Conjures/Brutal Weapon and such, buff to 5 energy, 1/4 activation Still useless, find another effect as long as it's not a skill affecting IAS

Shadow Meld --> change to 5 energy SM is fine, depending on your viewpoint.
SOme find it weak, some think it's a problem, cus it's a shadow step.
I find it fine where its at right now, though isn't there a bug with it and return right now?

Signet of Malice --> You are cured of bleeding, poison. [to help with warriors/rangers] For each Condition suffered by target foe, you lose one Condition.
Why not just make it you lose 1 condition and then an additional condition for each condition suffered? your way just makes it so that you lose bleeding and poison unconditionally (so 2 conditions removed off the bat) and than additional...>.>

Way of the Assassin --> remove "if under the effects of an enchantment"
Or make it boost crits and also an IMS! then the enchantment clause makes sense and it's more than a gimmicky elite

Heart of Shadow --> "you Shadow Step to nearest ally or party member within earshot" instead of "Shadow Step to a random nearby location." [15sec recharge balanced due to it being non-targetted but random]
Your essentially cloning Death's Retreat, expect it's non targetted and your nearest ally may take you further away from a monk.
It just needs to be usable to protect yourself when on your own or when in a pair of 2.

Shadow Form --> "Form. All stances are removed and spells are disabled for 5...17...20 seconds. For 5...17...20 seconds, you take no damage from spells and you have 75% chance to block. (10 energy, 1 cast, 45 recharge)"
IMO can't work until Deadly Paradox is reworked , and you haven't done that in your suggestions....15 energy doesn't make DP unplayable, just makes people not want to play it because it's to much work to make it work....with SF DP is playable because the idea of near invincibility is good enough to warrant the management of 15 energy. So it's still able to grief,except now if they make a mistake there not reduced to 50 health

I didn't quote about anything I agreed with. Or didn't feel like talking about.

erk · Feb 10, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

...
One of the main reasons Warriors are so good is because while they aren't spiking, they can pressure. This is where dagger base damage becomes important. Namely, dagger damage sucks, so Sins can't really pressure very well.

Have you actually tested this? I certainly have, and daggers because of their fast effective attack rate, the result of the double strike rate from Dagger Master, means they are right up there with warriors base damage. Just test it on the Master of Damage and see for yourself. The Sins main issue is daggers being two handed, they don't have a shield which is very important for staying power at the front line.

LifeInfusion · Feb 11, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Response to http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=176
(by Ensoriki)

Wild Strike

Quote:

Lets say its solution 3 with the recharge thing.
Why reduce wild strike's damage? Right now it's doing fairly well, and if you reduce its damage you just make it so that in a situation where there are few stances, or key stances you may want removed, it's a poor skill to take.
Better to just leave as is.

It's doing well at the moment because there aren't that many fast-recharging offhands. When you compare to any attack skill that has stance removal, it is already imbalanced because it is frontloaded and easy to meet (with dancing daggers/Golden Fox Strike/Jagged Strike spam). This is one of the reasons why Assassins can kill Rangers as easy as they do, since it nullifies stances entirely (and with 4 recharge there is no way the Ranger can do anything except run...which is a stance unless you are going normal speed... or throw dirt).

Fox Fangs

Quote:

4-5 is to little, 1/2 activation is somewhat useful, the recharge shouldn't dip below 6, maybe add an additional +5 damage to the max just so people realize it's there.

It is not stronger than current Wild Strike other than the 1/2 activation. I wouldn't mind it being 6 recharge though if the 1/2 activation is kept. That's still in the usable recharge range. I think 4-5 recharge with normal activation would make for a stronger pressure assassin. Again, supporting pressure more than instagibs.

Jungle Strike

Quote:

It's fine, I find the 8 recharge to long personally, it's a spike skill

Yes, but unlike Eviscerate-Executioner's it activates in a 1/2 second, is frontloaded, and is completely armor ignoring. I feel 1/2 second should be reserved for attacks that actually need them, rather than acting as incentives for spikes that happen in <1 second.

Repeating Strike

Quote:

I say keep the misses, and I think your +20...40...45 thing is also too high.
It comes after a Off-hand....like wild strike, meaning unblockable may not even be a problem, missing is fine.
+20...40..45, sure it's only usable with Woep but, Woep has its own issues that should be addressed. It should be in the +30 range for 12 dagger mastery around 30...35. Really you also shouldn't have to rely on Woep to be able to use it well, should have some conditional effect that gives back 1 energy or so to make it fit it's role as a spam skill.

The damage is upped because people believe assassins cannot pressure. It comes after an offhand, meaning you need one of two things: Dancing Daggers-Wild Strike/Fox Fangs or I assure you 45 is not that high since it is offhand (only strikes once) and since daggers do less than axes on autoattack, it supplements this lack of autoattack damage. Basically this is diversion bait flame-level damage against caster targets regardless.

Moebius Strike

Quote:

You act like Moebius-DB is killing the game, and it actually is already viable for normal chains.

How many times do you see people say it is not as good as "Moebius Strike-Death Blossom"? Moebius-Death Blossom is basically braindead wannabe DPS. Moebius was supposedly a Flourish-like attack skill recharger. Instead it turned into dual attack spam. This wasn't viable at 8 recharge, but the buff to 2 recharge is insanity.

Golden Skull Strike

Quote:

I'd just reduce the recharge to about 10 for perma daze or reduce to 8 and reduce duration a bit.
Option 2: Daze spikes? fun...
Option 1: could work but....were going to need to change its name to Golden Fox stri.....wait. =P (just humor)

Daze spike? damage would occur before the daze and +30...35 on an offhand isn't that high especially given the recharge. Although the damage could be as low as something akin to 5...15...20 and it would still be a nice buff.

Temple Strike

Quote:

1/2 activation isn't going to matter much if at all.
15 energy+20 recharge is enough for this to not see play, 15 recharge just makes it more usable and 15 energy stops spamming just fine.

Attacker's insight can fuel this, although it is kind of gimmicky at best. 1/2 activation would allow the interrupt part of the skill to be useful.

Nine Tail Strike

Quote:

Eh could be fine, I wouldn't notice the recharge thing anyways, I'd just be using it's 1/2 activation for spiking with Jungle strike and Impale.
Also with this would Jungle,NTS,impale and moebius be able to put out quick damage? Duals already hit quick, so 1/2 activation means Jungle and NTS are hitting around 200 damage in about half or 3/4th's of a second? Hit impale with that and thats 300+ damage in about 1 and 3/4ths of a second? Hit moebius since they should be past 50% from that and hit for another around 100 damage from NTS ......use with an IAS?

How would you fit this on bar with Jungle Strike and Impale? You need to apply cripple, so that means your spike will be shut off with RC or dismiss. Nine Tail strike is a dual. I think the problem would lie in Jungle Strike and Nine Tail's 1/2 activation and 1/8 delay in between strikes of a dual attack (which I addressed by suggesting they be normal speed in between the strikes).

Death Blossom

Quote:

Are you saying now its almost imbalanced?
Moebius makes it so that the 2 second recharge of DB doesn't necessarily exist once the 50% mark is met,

It's "almost imbalanced" with Moebius, simply because Dual attacks normally need a chain to occur. Duals with Conjures and other on-hit mechanics break Reversal of Fortune and other prots due to the 1/8 second delay in between. If Death Blossom is upped to 3, then you would need another Dual to satisfy the Dual prerequisite for Moebius and it would make other skills more attractive.

Horns of the Ox

Quote:

Horn's is not a significant problem without instigib, or at least it should not be. In which case increasing the conditional range to nearby is unnecessary. I was under the impression it was changed to prevent imbalance in the game.

It was always adjacent. The damage was nerfed in response to SP assasins who chained this with pre-nerf Black Lotus Strike [an offhand at the time] and Blades of Steel. Again, there is something fundamentally wrong with needing 5-6 attacks (more than half your bar, not including res) on bar to make a chain work. Regardless, adjacent is really small so the effect is basically always there.

Blades of Steel

Quote:

Bos needs a change, it's an unhealthy idea.

Reducing dagger recharges is an indirect (and subtle) nerf to Blades of Steel since then you cannot Lead-Offhand-Dual-Offhand-Blades of Steel or Offhand-Dual-Offhand-Blades of Steel. Other than that, any other change would require an overhaul.

Shattering Assault

Quote:

Skill kill

How is it a skill kill? Would 6-8 recharge be more fitting? Hitting the energy and not upping recharge would be dangerous. It is really energy intensive as of now, making it viable more with Golden Lotus/Black Lotus/Lotus/etc. A reduction in energy would help it be more usable in any chain.

Golden Lotus Strike

Quote:

see GLS damage is quite low,
you could decrease the recharge to 8 but that doesn't do anything significant. If the damage isn't increased it's only purpose is just to support perma-shadow.

It does do something significant, as it allows you to pay for offhand and dual and still use utility (Disrupting Dagger perhaps) mid-chain or after the chain unloads. Permanent Shadow form would be solved by my suggestion of changing its effects so that it isn't godmode.

Dancing Daggers

Quote:

Note this is in deadly arts, if your using DD with daggers then you have abandoned critical strikes in which case you can get your ass handed to you. If your using a sin caster, than DD's damage is fine enough, DD is not a problem and is fine as it is right now.

Regardless it kills RoF so it should be bumped down a bit. It does matter if it does 20 or 30 damage because two hits will go past RoF in the span of less than a 1/4 second. This is not one of the big issues though. It is more Deadly Paradox's fault for assassin casters.

Malicious Strike

Quote:

It's fine, the only purpose of that change is to fuel Critical agility in pve or Critical defenses in RA/pve/AB. Also nothing wrong with it being conditional, its condition is very, very easy to meet. If you want to do something for it, I don't know but that change is not needed.

Let's not forget PVE is a game type and mobs a lvl 28-29 are hard to score critical hits on. Critical Agility shouldn't need lameness like Jagged Strike to work and some mobs don't suffer conditions.

SHADOW STEPS

Quote:

....Why do that when Dash is already a great IMS? And only needs a small tweak or 2 to be even better.....and 300% movement speed would be horrible..... for 1, nobody would be able to kite in time from a 300% movement speed boost anyways, and with C space it be nearly the same as shadow stepping anyways, probably the same with 200%, and probably 150% too.
Shadowsteps can stay as long as theirs suitable drawbacks. Although the removal of Shadow Prison/Dark prison would not phase me.

I think you misunderstood my suggestion. Mechanically, the shadowsteps would stay the same: you would still need to cast them in spell range and need a target. 1000% movement speed is basically what it is NOW when you disappear and reappear (you cannot kite shadowsteps). The thing is by making the animation movement instead of disappearing, it would allow for knowledge of who the assassin is targetting in the cast time and let snares do something (not much) besides look pretty in purple and down yellow arrow.

I never said to make shadowsteps stances if you reread my post. The reason why 1000% speed is necessary is so that when snared at -90%, the shadowstep would be movement at normal speed rather than making shadow steps worthless. I could have been less generous and said 200% (-50%) though but then the movement wouldn't fit in the 1/4 second span that it is now.

SKILLS
Augury of Death

Quote:

Just change the damn skill, the DW and the shadow step blow, the whole mechanic blows change it

An Augury is a portent. Changing the skill would remove that element and kill the flavor. Removing the shadow step would remove the "spiking for dummies" element.

Flashing Blades

Quote:

Not significant, and it's a pve skill, thats already working in pve

PVE is a gametype and Wild Blow/Throw/Strike is seen in places. This suggestion was for the sake of being thorough. Not to mention, against warriors and rangers on splits, this would help.

Mark of Insecurity

Quote:

Eh, disagree, while making it remove stance's does give it benefits it has benefits of making expiration happen faster as well for stances so its a mixed bag.
Add whenever they cast/enter a stance or enchant they lose 1 (or 2) energy.
Or that whenever they enter or Lose a stance/enchant they lose 1 (or 2) energy. It's then much more usable.

Energy loss is the domain of mesmers. Removing a Frenzy, Enraging Charge, or Sprint is much better than having them expire 50% faster. As an addendum, maybe "and prevents stances from being used" would have been a better way to word my original post.

Sadist Signet

Quote:

Your lacking a cap, which would make it the most potentially powerful Heal in the game.
Make the 10...34..40 unconditional and then an additional 10...34..40 for each condition or hex on the target (instead of seperately, just so it's not confusing) and have a cap of maximum 160? (health).

The hex portion is not "per hex", it is "if hexed" ("additional 10...34...40 Health if that foe is under a hex"). (I probably should have clarified this.) The game is currently lacking a cap as it is. However, a cap wouldn't do much because last I checked conditions were hard to keep on with RC and hard to apply an assassin. If it is really necessary, A suitable cap would be around 110-120 I think (in line with Heal Sig).

Signet of Shadows

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While hard to apply with a pvp sin....you have team mates, and in which case this gets even stronger with a blind inducer on your team,and can be usable as a gimmick by casters to terrorize in low order pvp. it already has the benefit of having unconditional damage on it (though low), won't be as gimmicky as it would be on casters at 15 recharge, but means you can organize a spike on a target with your ele.

How is this any different than someone using Black Spider Strike and Signet of Toxic Shock? or Signet of Toxic Shock with Apply Poison which is rampant on Rangers? (not being sarcastic)

Siphon Strength

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Doesn't matter at all...or atleast not much...for sins.
it already boost crit rate which synergizes with primary attribute allowing for easy refueling of energy.
You could fix the duration to 20, or increase the damage reduction even higher (it's already reducing almost all melee to 0, increasing really just makes the dervish truly affected by it).
I know from using it already that the 10 energy isn't anything for an assassin with crit strikes, and that a DA focused sin Should already have energy-management from somewhere else to mitigate this.

I like the idea of it shutting down a Dervish. Reducing it to 5 energy would allow it to be used with Siphon Speed against Melandru's Dervishes. I don't see why this couldn't use a buff.

Dark Apostasy

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Makes it more exploitable, with the inclusion of Way of the Master, theres already ways to make this work similar to Avatar of Grenth before the change to block.
Also Assault Enchantments does what this does except all at once with no energy loss

Avatar of Grenth removed the enchantments on demand. This removes on Critical hits, which are induced by Malicious Strike or Keen chop. Everything else is conditional. I guess this doesn't need a buff given its potency, but I would like it actually being used somewhere.

Locust's Fury

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Still useless, find another effect as long as it's not a skill affecting IAS

That's incredibly true.

Shadow Meld

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SM is fine, depending on your viewpoint.
SOme find it weak, some think it's a problem, cus it's a shadow step.
I find it fine where its at right now, though isn't there a bug with it and return right now?

It doesn't have a snare so it doesn't deserve 10 energy cost unlike Dark Prison/Shadow Prison especially since this has to be maintained. Compared to Death's Charge this is pretty bad.

Signet of Malice

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Why not just make it you lose 1 condition and then an additional condition for each condition suffered? your way just makes it so that you lose bleeding and poison unconditionally (so 2 conditions removed off the bat) and than additional...>.>

This is to make assasins viable against warriors and rangers on a split (subtle I know). Most ranger damage comes from the poison and sword warriors need bleeding for gash. (I didn't add Cripple here for some reason, maybe because Wild Strike removes stances...) If it removed every condition, then it would nullify blind.

Heart of Shadow

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Your essentially cloning Death's Retreat, expect it's non targetted and your nearest ally may take you further away from a monk.
It just needs to be usable to protect yourself when on your own or when in a pair of 2.

Well this heals you unconditionally firstly before the shadow step so I'd think you won't need to go all the way to the backline. If you use this, you're likely to go to a warrior or Dervish (minion/pet if PVE).

Shadow Form

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IMO can't work until Deadly Paradox is reworked , and you haven't done that in your suggestions....15 energy doesn't make DP unplayable, just makes people not want to play it because it's to much work to make it work....with SF DP is playable because the idea of near invincibility is good enough to warrant the management of 15 energy. So it's still able to grief,except now if they make a mistake there not reduced to 50 health

Stances are removed. Maybe I should have changed that to stances are removed and disabled...or made this a stance in itself. There's an idea!

TheOneMephisto · Feb 11, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Have you actually tested this? I certainly have, and daggers because of their fast effective attack rate, the result of the double strike rate from Dagger Master, means they are right up there with warriors base damage. Just test it on the Master of Damage and see for yourself. The Sins main issue is daggers being two handed, they don't have a shield which is very important for staying power at the front line.

I'm pretty sure that daggers do next to no damage autoattacking against 78 AL characters just because they do so little damage per hit. You then also have to take into account that a huge part of warrior pressure is rush/frenzy/bull's strike, for which sins have no really viable alternatives that can even come close to comparison.

erk · Feb 11, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I'm pretty sure that daggers do next to no damage autoattacking against 78 AL characters just because they do so little damage per hit. You then also have to take into account that a huge part of warrior pressure is rush/frenzy/bull's strike, for which sins have no really viable alternatives that can even come close to comparison.

On the surface the daggers at 7-17 damage doesn't look like much but when you factor in that Dagger Mastery makes them hit faster, up to .99sec attack rate maxed out, and every few hits it does a double hit, and the increased chance of a critical, then it matches a sword in dps when auto attacking. If a dagger comes close to a sword on the 60AL Master of Damage test, then they should both exhibit the same percentage reduction on the 78AL characters.

I was not really commenting on the skills chosen, just the weapons base damage with no skills used. There is no reason a Sin can't use warrior skills as well if they help in a pressure roll, but like I said the lack of a shield will hurt, although Nightstalker's insignia will give you +15AL whilst attacking.

BTW my auto attack tests were done with PvP characters/weapons the full 3min test on Master of Damage with standard dagger no vamp or penetrating mods etc. no skills in bar with

Assassin 12 in Dagger Master and 12 in Critical Strikes.

Warrior 12 in Sword Mastery and 12 in Strength.

Assassin = 17 DPS

Warrior = 18 DPS

Not much in it really.