Curse

Riotgear · Feb 02, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Spirits being stationary is the trade off for effectively being extra team members.

When you're using them near a major objective like an altar or flagstand, being stationary is hardly a "tradeoff."

Quote:

Assassin forced to use breakable combo chains is the trade off for the massive damage they can produce with them.

This is correct, that doesn't make them any less dumb. It turns them into a button-masher class that has one method of getting anything done, and they just keep having to brute-force it until it works successfully. Particularly with shadow steps allowing them to instantly engage any target within earshot, they're about as brainless and tactically-bankrupt as it gets (short of chucking lightning spears at spike targets and spamming shouts on recharge), regardless of effectiveness.

Quote:

I would still like to see a nerf to the A/Mo Sincaster build, I don't think that's in the true spirit of the Melee sin. Dancing daggers should be nerfed out of common usage.

Dancing Daggers is fine, the problem is Augury of Death.

ensoriki · Feb 02, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Care to say why?

for one im note quite comfortable with how that would work and what it would mean for sin users

first of all
1) Critical Strikes Attribute
2) Dual mastery, 2% chance to dual strike per attribute point on top of an additional 2% innate to all daggers.

have a sin crit on a 60 AL target.
I've had my sin do crits around 32 damage with a dagger, depends on dagger attribute. Now the fact that at 13 Dagger mastery you have a 28% to dual strike.
if casters are willing to switch to a 20% mod do you not think a innate 28% chance for something to happen should actually mean something?
If a sin crits and dual strikes thats around 64 damage. A dual strike happens in what a second? less than that or so?
So if he does that twice in a row around 128 damage in 2 seconds?
Fortunately thats infrequent

Now lets take a sword, give it a higher rate to critical hit and then give it a chance to dual strike, or give that to an axe, while infrequent people wouldn't be happy about it. We already complain about Scythe criticals, fortunately scythes are slow, now if you could possibly do more damage than a scythe critical in a few milliseconds shorter time frame...

1 of the reasons this potential 128 damage in about 1-2 seconds doesn't happen is because well the chance of it happening is not exceptionally high.

Maybe I'm overreacting but if it does cause a problem A-net also needs to change Critical strikes % and Dagger mastery's dual attack %, possibly removal when it doesn't need to be.

Note this is just something to take observation and my math is not wonderful so I may be off >.>
thats just 1 thing to be aware of.

Also, with Dagger base damage increased skill damage has to go down possibly all around for dagger skills.
The assassin is also more heavily affected by armor in this scenario that Dagger base damage increases and skill damage decreases, like a warrior is.
So first you take sin damage and turn it into warrior damage, thats real fun for me...and I am interested in my fun >.<

you cause a possibly gimmick of Locust fury (possible, but than even so It may not be OP, just something to consider right?)
A lot of things need to bend over backwards for this 1 increase (Possibly)
When instead we can leave the weapon alone and just focus on the skills.

I don't like more work than necessary, im lazy.

if you can prove my assumption irrational, fine with me.
I'd still rather we didn't touch it though, touching what doesn't need to be touched causes problems.
Look at what Micheal Jackson got into.

....While I realize swords do about 31 damage crits, the idea is that as base dagger damage increase the crit damage would too.

erk · Feb 02, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

When you're using them near a major objective like an altar or flagstand, being stationary is hardly a "tradeoff."

People who fight too long near the enemies stationary spirit deserve to loose for being retarded. If you don't exploit the spirits weak link of no movement, then it serves you right, no sympathy from this corner

With the exception of perhaps Bloodsong, spirits are a pretty easy to kill with a ranged attack like burning from a midliner, or even B-surge if there is one that is really causing a problem. The thing you have to factor in is the terrible cast time on spirits, so in order to stack a flagstand or altar with spirits, there is a fair opportunity to shutdown the Rit casting them.

On the topic of camping near major objectives, lets get some movement back into GvG and stop this turtling/camping crap that's been going on for too long. If all I had to face at the flagstand to cap it was a bunch of spirits, I would be pretty happy!

Riotgear · Feb 02, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

People who fight too long near the enemies stationary spirit deserve to loose for being retarded. If you don't exploit the spirits weak link of no movement, then it serves you right, no sympathy from this corner

The objective points do not move, so if you bail out of the objective point just to dodge ANY number of spirits, you are going to lose. What do you suggest people do? Get off the altar on KOTH maps? Stop trying to control the flagstand in GvG? Stop capping shrines in HvH?

Quote:

or even B-surge if there is one that is really causing a problem.

If you're wasting time popping ghosts, you're largely playing into their hands. They'll be replacing them in short order whether you kill them or not, and you're basically relieving their team of whatever pressure your frontline/midline would be inflicting if they weren't wasting their time on them. Nevermind that the effective range of protective spirits is nearly double aggro bubble.

Quote:

The thing you have to factor in is the terrible cast time on spirits, so in order to stack a flagstand or altar with spirits, there is a fair opportunity to shutdown the Rit casting them.

With what? You need KDs or a Ranger to interrupt them, and the only other thing that will put any sort of dent in them is Diversion, and I'm pretty sure all of those tactics are better-reserved for other things.

Quote:

On the topic of camping near major objectives, lets get some movement back into GvG and stop this turtling/camping crap that's been going on for too long.

If you are expecting people to just give up the flagstand, you are retarded.

Makkert · Feb 02, 2008, 11:20 AM // 11:20

The question that comes to my mind is:

Suppose we 'delete' the ritualist and assassin, are the other 8 classes diverse enough to warrant balanced play?
The basic charge against the sin and ritualist is that they are mostly one-trick ponies. It's not a rant against VoD play, because that won't stop to exist if sins and ritu's are non-existant. People would find other ways, which is fine.

So if the charge is 'one-trick ponies', does that mean:
1) that paragons and the other 7 classes are not one-trick ponies?
2) that sins and ritu's are beyond hope?

The first question can be viewed from class to class basis. One could argue from a very silly and overreacting perspective that 'warriors are one-trick ponies, they only attack'. But the basis of point JR raises goes a bit further, in that the skillbalancing either pushes sins and ritu's in and out of the GvG scene. This brings it to the core of the problem: sins and ritu's too narrow in their functions to take a punch from a skill-nerf session and still laugh and be played often. Which brings it to quesiton 2...

Are they beyond hope? If we stick to skill-balancing, then probably yes. Sins and Ritu's need a wider function pallette to survive.
Compared to Otuyugh's Cry on a skill-level, and i'll take it from it's orginal form to make the point more clear:

Quote:

All animals in the area become hostile to your target and gain +20 armor for 30 seconds. Otyugh's Cry cannot turn charmed animals against their masters or their master's allies. (50% failure chance with Beast Mastery 4 or less.)

They could buff that skill all they want, I'm not going to play it. It's too narrow. Unless they buffed it beyond a point where it would be too good to pass up for everyone, with npc's pets in big herdes walking all around on GvG maps.
If it had a functional change to something completely different, I'd be more receptive to buffs to play it. If it would be nerfed, then the wider functionality could make me ponder if it still were usefull. If the function of that skill was wider, it would be more resistant to jump in and out of play.

The same goes for professions on a wider scale IMHO.

erk · Feb 02, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The objective points do not move, so if you bail out of the objective point just to dodge ANY number of spirits, you are going to lose. What do you suggest people do? Get off the altar on KOTH maps? Stop trying to control the flagstand in GvG? Stop capping shrines in HvH?

I don't care about HA or HvH they can suffer. As for the flagstand, camping, it is an obsolete way to play, it's come about from years of lazy players that prefer to stand still instead of move, until it became the meta.

Just look at the movement in other games going back decades. That's where half the skill is, not just the defence/offence webs we weave in GvG which are also a result of lazy players. But that's another topic. Nerf spirits if you can't play them, gee make it so one wand hit kills them if you like! It doesn't bother me because I choose not to stand and be hit by them regardless of how hard they are to kill.

Snow Bunny · Feb 02, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Ritualists are a complicated one. Their flaw is mostly the reliance on spirits, so you have two options: Remove the spirits, or make the interesting.

I would like to see Spirits being mobile, perhaps with simmilar AI to pets. For the sake of arguement lets say you could summon up to 5 at a time. You could have offensive spirits which could have unique direct/AoE effects that triggered as they attacked. AoE damage per swing, AoE DoT effect... who knows. You could also possibly have defensive spirits that would act in a simmilar way to Wards, but wouldn't cripple your mobility.

Eh, if you could work in spirits attached to a party window in the manner that pets are, I could see Spirit mobility working. I know the ability to cycle through non-party allies is crucial to healing, but in a GvG with large amounts of spirits, I think your idea would work best if they could be incorporated in this manner.

wuzzman · Feb 02, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

lets see. With current skill balance lets see what the meta look like now without paras, rits, assassins, and dervs.

Meta Build Number 1.

3 Warriors -> Various combinations including of Axe, Hammer, and Sword. The 3rd warrior will replace the para. The warriors bar might be strong in interupts,
kd, or conditions.

1 mesmer/e - > glph of lesser + ward of melee guy

3 monks -> supports an aegis chain with a monk runner

1 cripshot ranger -> general utility boy. Can be ganker/alternative flag runner/pressure + interrupts at the stand.

Meta Build Number 2.

4 warriors -> Removes the mesmer for another warrior. Mesmer utility will be spread out amongst the warriors. For example one warrior may have a bar looking a little like this;
W/E
Disrupting Chop
Distracting Blow
Shock
Frenzy
Enraged/rush
(Matter of preference for the rest of the bar)
Enchant removal will be solely spike related, so skills like rend enchantments might see play.

3 monks -> supports a aegis chain with a monk runner.

1 cripshot -> general utility boy. Can be ganker/alternative flag runner/pressure + interrupts at the stand.
or
4 monk -> Teams might take a 4th instead of the cripshot for better defense at the stand.

Meta Build Number 3.

2 warriors -> Basical shock/axe combo nothing new here.
1 E/Mo earth ele -> This guy replaces the paragon and carries heal party. His bar might look something like this;
Ether Prodigy
Glph of lesser energy
Ward against melee
Ward against Stability
Ward against Foes
Heal Party
Rez sig
Obsidian Flame

E/mo air ele -> Old school emo/blind bot. Will cover the team when the e/mo earth ele is getting shutdown. The build will probably look something like;
Ether Prodigy
Blinding Flash
Heal Party
Lightning Orb
glph of lesser
(The rest of the bar would probably be a matter of preference)

3 monks -> supports a aegis chain with a monk runner.
1 cripshot ranger -> general utility boy. Can be ganker/alternative flag runner/pressure + interrupts at the stand.

The game will then become a true matter rock paper scissors. With Build 1 beating build 3, Build 2 beating build 1, and Build 3 beating build 2. Splitting will not be important because A. Npc's can be tanked, B. Defending against a split is very easy once your main objective becomes stalling for VoD and not protecting Npc's. Sure you can't splinter bomb npcs at VoD. Does that really matter? They won't kill you any time soon regardless of the 3 builds you want to run. Besides if you really want to be annoying you can still glph of sac + meteor shower the hole npc nest.

Tab · Feb 02, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

What the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO? People would just go back to the old W, W, R, Me, E, E, Mo, Mo balanced and find new ways to fit in AoE.

JR · Feb 02, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

.......

I lol'd, I really did.

wuzzman · Feb 02, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

fact is fact, don't care much if you don't see where the meta is heading towards.

Tab · Feb 02, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

fact is fact, don't care much if you don't see where the meta is heading towards.

Oh sorry. We forgot that you're vastly more knowledgeable and experienced than anyone else on these forums.

wuzzman · Feb 02, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Oh sorry. We forgot that you're vastly more knowledgeable and experienced than anyone else on these forums.

the reason why the w,w,r,me,e,e,m,m backline worked back in the prophecies days is because we had the boon/prots. Once the meta switched to blessed light backlines now your dealing with 3-4 thumper builds being run. Even worse, no assassin secondary this time to piss off frontliners with return.

Tab · Feb 02, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

That build was meta about 3 months ago. Dual Shock Axe, Cripshot, Esurge, Bsurge, LoD, SoD, SoR. Just tweak that to dual Shock Axe, Cripshot, Esurge/Glyph of Energy, Mind Blast, WoH, RC, WoH ele and you're done.

wuzzman · Feb 02, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

WoH, RC, WoH backline will probably be used, keeping a mesmer alive long enough for his shutdown to be worth it is why you can swap it out for pure defense or offense character. A mesmer in their current state is better at kicking the defense web provided by midliners then dismantling a 3 monk backline.

I don't see Mind Blast ele's sticking around when people are complaining about splinter weapon. What to say that Rodgerts >> Npcs or Meteor SHow + glph >> npcs. We lost both LoD, and SoR since then. The motigon was really the best we could come up with, a single e/mo will not work, especially when the possibility of 3-4 warrior teams popping up. Teams will just bring 2 copies of heal party to keep themselves alive and really, since NPC tanking>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non NPC tanking, do you see any reason to NOT take as much defense as possible?

That is the question, there is nothing punishing bringing as much defense as possible neither is there any pits falls for just stuffing as many warriors in one build. For now defense is over offense, because of the para, but that won't last for long.

Snow Bunny · Feb 02, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I lol'd, I really did.

So did I.

12 chars

Tab · Feb 02, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Random bullshit

I can see it working a hell of alot better than 3 monk, 2 ele teams or 4 monk teams.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 02, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Guys stop making fun of wuzzman. He's shown time and time again that he's more knowledgeable than any of the top players on this forums who have had a vast amount of experience in top GvG gameplay. He's also shown his uncanny ability to create good builds and predict them before, along with his shocking insights into GW and GvG balance and gameplay.

O wait...

Dominator1370 · Feb 04, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Stuff about how the Critical Strikes attribute would cause problems with higher dagger damage

Yes and no. I doubt you're saying a touch up of a couple damage to max dagger damage would cause them to be omgwtfbbq imbalanced. That isn't the problem, though. The problem is the low end.

It's usually a pretty hard and fast rule in games that higher damage weapons have larger damage ranges, while lower damage weapons have smaller ranges. It helps balance out DPS.

A dagger's minimum damage is actually one better than an axes, but at least with the axe, you have a chance of landing some solid hits. With the sin, you're not getting the solid hits, and you've still got a ridiculously low minimum damage. It should be toned up.

Another way to look at it is this: axes have a max of 28, and a range of 22. A sword has a max of 22 and a range of 7. That's consistent with how things should work. Assassins, however, have a max of 17 (lower than a sword) and a range of 10 (more than a sword). That's a bad sign.

What's even worse is that while swords and axes are one handed weapons and let you carry your shield around, daggers are two handed weapons. Two handed weapons should outdamage one handed weapons, no?

Basically (TL;DR version) if daggers are going to have crap maximum damage, bring the minimum damage up. Crit damage will stay where it is, non-crit auto-attacking won't have a good chance at being laughable, and sin DPS won't be a joke anymore. Of course, it's probably safe to tone down sin's instagib abilities without reprisal as long as you give them something else to do.

revaer · Feb 04, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Basically (TL;DR version) if daggers are going to have crap maximum damage, bring the minimum damage up. Crit damage will stay where it is, non-crit auto-attacking won't have a good chance at being laughable, and sin DPS won't be a joke anymore. Of course, it's probably safe to tone down sin's instagib abilities without reprisal as long as you give them something else to do.

Instagib combos aren't about the base damage but deep wound and lots of +damage so I'd say it's quite safe to increase the minimum damage. Not to say there's nothing wrong with lolsins though.