Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 06, 2008, 10:39 AM // 10:39

I'm sure you think you're contributing Fla, but I've seen too many threads like this devolve into one guy defending 'his' class while everyone else argues from a wider perspective. It never accomplishes anything but bogging the thread down.

You've made your argument. Fine. Now go ahead and stay out of this thread for a while.

C2K · Mar 06, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

I doubt there will be such a drastic nerf to shadowstepping in the next patch. Sins have only been used so much in high level since VoD was twinked. If you revert all the VoD changes, Blockway becomes the build of choice and Sinsplit falls to the bottom again, because NPC count wouldn't matter and blockway could farm them at VoD. (Yes I know dervspike still exists, but I think we all know its getting toned down and I can't really predict of the impact the nerf is going to have on the build yet).

Shadowstepping as a sin is strong when the game forces you to split, because then it becomes the sins game(and looking at the skillset, sins were designed to be the best skirmishers in the game). ViO forces teams to split against sins, because now the sins have a way to force this upon teams. They didn't have such an advantage since the days BoA and the Recall games(and Recall was the most ridiculous shadowstep the game has ever seen).

Changing VoD changes how sins work in gvg. Thats how the sin gets balanced in GvG. You can also create the guild thief mechanic on every map, that will slow sinsplit down. The nerfs to the sin class we will see will probably help the 4v4 game more than the gvg one however.

As for the dervish spike build, its more of how Attacker's Insight and Pious make it unstoppable. Attacker's Insight pays for the spike and Pious Assault is the hammer at 3/4th speed. You can argue that Grenth's adds to it, but if Pious assault had to adhere to 1 second or normal attack speed, good monks would stop it. The only realistic way to make Grenth's Aura not work with this spike is to switch its function (remove enchant on use, other function on remove).

What does the above paragraph have to do with shadowstepping? Those dervishs run AoB, so they are always fast and don't really need the shadow step to do the spike. Nerfing shadowstepping won't stop the dervspike, it needs its own nerf. The shadowstep gives them a tad more unpredictiblity, but they can get to their target and spike just as fast without it.

ensoriki · Mar 06, 2008, 12:20 PM // 12:20

make all shadowsteps remove your non assassin stance when activated and disable all non assassin skills for 5 second and/or
make either the defensive or offensive shadowsteps require adrenaline, except for scorpion wire % soh.

other than that you just fix up sin damage

deathy · Mar 06, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

I think putting an aftercast would make a great change when shadow steps are run on wars/dervs/sins to spike a target. How do you feel about return for example? Do you feel that adds enough to gameplay to allow it to remain on monks etc? Would that benefit from an aftercast?
Shadowsteps seem to be bad when they allow 'miracle' escapes and when they promote degenerative spiking.
Much of the shadowsteps power comes from incredible combos, which need to be incredible, because they are so easily disrupted against any half competant team at the flag stang. This disruption makes them useless anywhere there is disruption, and often overpowered anywhere else.
I think therefore that the more important issue is to at least partially rework the combo mechanic to allow multi dimensional, versatile assassins, that are viable at the flagstand. (See my post in the other thread)

samcobra · Mar 06, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

the whole point of a shadow-step and the reason it lacks aftercast is so that you can attack right after shadow stepping. It is a viable game mechanic and a fun one at that.

However, I do like the idea of line of sight, or at least some penalty to lacking a decent line of sight. This would solve many of the multi-layer problems and still maintain shadowstepping as a viable game mechanic, albeit one that would require a bit more game awareness.

Horace The Great · Mar 06, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Longer casting time would be cool (1sec my opinion)
Losing all ench is nice.
All your (attack)skills are disabled for 1 sec.

I Angra I · Mar 06, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Line of sight plz.

Maybe make Shadow Prison and Dark Prison snare both the target and yourself.

DutchSmurf · Mar 06, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Izzy already said he doesn't like a blackout idea, so I guess he will think the same about an aftercast. Line of sight will probably be hard to do, since the LoS we are looking for isn't the normal LoS bows have. The 'lose all enchantments' would stop the dervspike, but would do nothing against assassins. The 'lose your stance' would do nothing against assassins. Longer casttimes and/or delayed shadowsteps might be better.

Mr_Unlucky · Mar 06, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Line of sight or exhaustion are the best fixes imo.

I Angra I · Mar 06, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

qft

and the guys above me:
"The 'lose all enchantments' would stop the dervspike"
im sure that it would..... not

go read the skill Grenths Aura gogo

It would also make you lose Attacker's Insight then, which would make the spike cost a lot of energy. Plus if it activates at the beginning of the shadowstep activation, it'll remove the enchantments before you actually arrive at the target.

The current dervspike has a lot of other problems besides shadowstepping though and hopefully it'll be remedied today in the update.

C2K · Mar 06, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Unlucky

Line of sight or exhaustion are the best fixes imo.

Exhaustion wouldn't work. Exhaustion was a big failure when used to remedy the rit problem and it would be a failure if used with sins who have even a shorter energy bar.

Line of sight makes sense, though I doubt it would fix the problem people are having with it. With LOS, you would still be able to shadowstep to the archer you see.

I still think ViO change/removal would fix the sinsplit problem, because thats how sinsplit wins at VoD.

DutchSmurf · Mar 06, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

and the guys above me:
"The 'lose all enchantments' would stop the dervspike"
im sure that it would..... not

go read the skill Grenths Aura gogo

Lets see, you don't have free attacks anymore and your deepwound doesn't strip an enchant. And you also can't make your attacks unblockable anymore. But for the rest it wouldn't do anything. Even if it happens when you arrive at the target, you can then still catch part of the attack, if not all of it if you are good. So go think before you post?

Riotgear · Mar 06, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Exhaustion wouldn't work. Exhaustion was a big failure when used to remedy the rit problem and it would be a failure if used with sins who have even a shorter energy bar.

All adding exhaustion would do is get rid of AoD shock and make everyone run the Shadow Prison + Shroud version instead. It's not like most shadow steps have a recharge shorter than it takes the exhaustion to expire or carry more than one shadow step unless you're talking HvH where the shadow step abuse needs to be curbed anyway.

The exhaustion addition to Ritualists was actually a novel idea that got wrecked by sloppy implementation. Recuperation, for example, would be a much better skill with a low energy cost and exhaustion. The problem was primarily bad ritualists that couldn't figure out how to handle gray on their bar without Energy Storage to make it ignorable, as if Mesmers could never find a way to make Gale work.

FoxBat · Mar 06, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Right now Shadowstep has a pathing distance limitation of compass range. It can't be hard to simply notch that back to say Earshot or a little bit more than that. This eliminates the layering advantage and is much simpler to implement and understand than this "line of sight" business.

C2K · Mar 06, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The exhaustion addition to Ritualists was actually a novel idea that got wrecked by sloppy implementation. Recuperation, for example, would be a much better skill with a low energy cost and exhaustion. The problem was primarily bad ritualists that couldn't figure out how to handle gray on their bar without Energy Storage to make it ignorable, as if Mesmers could never find a way to make Gale work.

I think it was more that the spirits that went together were the ones that got the exhaustion hit. Wanderlust, Shelter, Disenchantment, etc.

Though I think Ancestor's Rage was one of the skills that could have survived with Exhaustion.

wuzzman · Mar 07, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

All adding exhaustion would do is get rid of AoD shock and make everyone run the Shadow Prison + Shroud version instead. It's not like most shadow steps have a recharge shorter than it takes the exhaustion to expire or carry more than one shadow step unless you're talking HvH where the shadow step abuse needs to be curbed anyway.

The exhaustion addition to Ritualists was actually a novel idea that got wrecked by sloppy implementation. Recuperation, for example, would be a much better skill with a low energy cost and exhaustion. The problem was primarily bad ritualists that couldn't figure out how to handle gray on their bar without Energy Storage to make it ignorable, as if Mesmers could never find a way to make Gale work.

recuperation is medicore. If I'm paying exhaustion to use a skill it better be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing good at whatever the hell it does. In which case while gale is probably one of the best skills in the game, recuperation barely has an excuse for being worth 25 energy. Ancestor rage however could take exhaustion if you really in need to tone down a skill.

tehshadowninjar · Mar 07, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Well, truthfully, really, quit the Q.Q about Assassins. When you really think about it, Shadowstepping is the only real advantage an assassin has left, and you want to nerf it. Izzy has already beat it into pixeled oblivion with the nerf hammer. Why not just frickin' erase the profession? Seriously, nerfing Siphon Speed (don't mind it that much), VoS (this is what really pissed me off), and somewhat Shadow Prison also. Not my fault, nor anyone else's other than yours that you suck too bad to counter an Assassin.

moriz · Mar 07, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

GW at its roots is a game of positioning and movement. if you strip away all the skills, builds, and other superficial fluff, that's what you'll find. in fact, every trick/tactic/strategy ever invented in any arena is based around those two concepts. as such, positioning and movement is pretty much the most important aspect of GW.

then, you get the assassin. not only can it completely negate positioning with a press of a button (shadowstepping), but in some cases, it can simutaneously negate movement (shadow/dark prison, other teleport+snares). it should be pretty obvious that such an ability should simply not exist. if it must exist, then it must be EXTREMELY costly in terms of costs and drawbacks. however, that's often not the case.

this is why the assassin can never be properly balanced. it's entire existence relies on negating two aspects of gameplay that should NEVER be negated, especially with the amount of damage the assassin is fully capable of. as such, any meaningful buff/nerf will either make the assassin overpowered, or completely useless.

Riotgear · Mar 07, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

I think it was more that the spirits that went together were the ones that got the exhaustion hit.

Exhaustion has two purposes: To make abilities more expensive to use together while cheaper apart, and to allow an ability to be readily-available constantly while not being spammable.

The hits to spirits were largely aimed at the first, which would basically be a buff to Ritualists who want to carry one staple spirit and possibly a support one to use as fuel for things without obliterating their energy, while punishing spirit spam, which was and still is an extremely brainless mode of play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

recuperation is medicore. If I'm paying exhaustion to use a skill it better be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing good at whatever the hell it does.

See above. If you're only carrying one exhaustion skill on your bar, who gives a shit? I'd take a 10e+Exhaustion Recuperation over a 25e non-exhausting one any day.

Quote:

this is why the assassin can never be properly balanced.

The reason why Assassins will never be properly balanced is because they have no bar compression, no function outside of spikes, are overpowered if they're capable of instagibbing things, and completely fail if they're not. The latter two are the primary reasons why gank classes are bad for fun factor in any game.

Captain Robo · Mar 07, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Fix:

Move all shadowsteps to Shadow Mastery.

Have shadow steps scale with shadow mastery from Ward Range at 0 to Radar Range at 8 (and cap it there).

Essentially, to be as effective at shadow stepping as a current assassin, you need to hit a break point in an unrelated attribute, which gimps your damage.

I'm working on a large project to redesign some aspects of the game, purely as a thought experiment, and the direction I'd like to see assassins taken in are as very mobile skirmishers to compensate for their lack of range (more skills like Dash, less shadow steps). I'll post my results in a few days, I'm more or less fine tuning what I have.