Curse

Dallcingi · Mar 09, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

It wont happen but it would be cool to see some old faces again.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 09, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

It's pretty sad when Anet implemented AT's, wasn't that the sole reason they opted to go with it? To control it, ie setup god damn proph only tourney's? Haven't seen such occur yet though. Instead we are left with a plagued piece of trash!! That 2/3 forfeit. Crappy teams getting trims, a time consuming afk barf fest, and a champ farming -2+2-3+3 normal ladder. Oh did I forget to mention the masses being bored out of their minds while it took this 3+ months to actually materialize, during which we all can remember the top tier all disbanded or quit.

I'm pretty sure the masses would have volunteered to sit at home during their free time and schedule AT's throughout the year to have at least fun weekend AT's, too bad ideas never materialized.

Kaon · Mar 09, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Oh did I forget to mention the masses being bored out of their minds while it took this 3+ months to actually materialize, during which we all can remember the top tier all disbanded or quit.

5 months... 5 months of worthless crapladder and play. During that time the entire american gvg scene died, it was sad.

erk · Mar 09, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I am pretty sure from looking at the number of teams that actually play ATs and don't just forfeit without penalty, plus the long wait for GvG regular games, that GvG participation in general has dropped right off compared to how it was 6 mths before the AT's were introduced.

The number of forfeits is a serious issue, and when you factor in byes, it's laughable how many games actually get played each day.

Something like a core skills series might kindle a bit of interest if done properly.

twicky_kid · Mar 10, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

This is the one lesson that GW never learned from MTG.

MTG only survived BECAUSE it splits up its expansions. I hate the argument "We don't need to split up the small player base even more."

This is flawed in so many ways. Mainly that it will not split up the player base but offer more options. More options less boredom. Many MTG players play in more than 1 tournament format.

Same will happen here. Some players will like the expansions. Some will like the core only. Everyone will eventually switch between them.

You get tired of one format you go play the other one. Unlike HA vs GvG the game mechanics are the same no matter what format you are in. Comparing core gvg to the expansions is apples and oranges.

Core was completely focused on team mobility, the flag stand being 80% of the win or loss, and positioning mattered. I'd love to play that game again and the reason so many other players left when it went away.

The best thing that GW can do is this:

1. Have an AT on the weekends with restrictions of what skills/expansions can be used.
ATs on the weekends give the avg working people a chance to play and get rewards. It will also give the game a great flavor with team builds because of skill/expansion restrictions.

2. Reset the ladder and have a ladder season again.
This is for the hardcore players that loved the season ladder and had time to grind it. More teams will play this format allowing short gvg que times.

3. Add draft team builds to the game already. You've had this idea up in the air since Prophocies. Instead of implementing it into the game players created a program to perform the draft and construct the teams. I've done it a few times and gave up because it took HOURS to find enough players then do the draft. The actual draft cost the most time. Anet's been sitting on a gold mine format for years and won't get off their asses to make it happen in game.

This will appeal to both kinds of players. Will Anet do it? Probably not the solution is too simple for them. They always have to have some complicated solution that messes more stuff up than it fixes.

pah01 · Mar 10, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

5 months... 5 months of worthless crapladder and play. During that time the entire american gvg scene died, it was sad.

Most of the euro scene died too. I think the european scene had three layers in my mind. Forgetting the time before factions release because I think the GWFC season was where the LUM/Valandor merger made IB and EW the dominant guilds. After those two you had guilds like emt and pnh, my memory is bad right bnow but I remember considering only 4 or 5 guilds to be at that next level.

I personally played at the next level and invested a lot of time getting into the top 100 and playing there and for the 4-5 months I played with a few guilds that were top 30 and top 20. After all this effort I made as well as some of my friends it was a kick in the teeth to watch all the competition disappear after christmas 2006 so that when we were I think 6th or 7th at 1150 rating or something it was absolutely worthless. Nubstomping guilds at 1000 rating 100 times in a month made the entire guild pretty much rage-quit.

I know that players who were consistent top 10 players never considered the ladder to mean anything anyway, and I also know some pretenders who echo the same thing but those pretenders are twats. I do however remember when mention of being in even the top 100 meant that you were most certainly a decent player, and top 20 did mean that you were almost a celebrity and a freaking good player.

The thing that really does me though is the effort it would have required to make the GW gvg a kind of classic game. Its the only freaking game of its kind on the market, and it would not have effected the pve carebear community at all to make it this classic game.

I don't know much about gwen expansion but the whining on gwonline about the overpowered-ness of ursan blessing is basically proof that a bunch of twats are responsible for the game design. They are even making shit thats too strong in PVE when all you needed was protective spirit, healing breeze(with spellbreaker occasionally) and spiteful spirit to get rich.

edit: I have one other game that I play regular at the mo. It is MTW2. The game series from shogun has been awesome, but to be honest there has been more than one mod where the modded game is significantly better than the original released version and the most recent patched version. Games companies should not be outclassed by amateur modders. It is the same thing here in guildwars, Ensign outclasses the entire development team when it comes to game balance and I could have done better myself if I didn't know shit about the game.

Joe

Keithark · Mar 10, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

/signed....like the 100000000th post about this but meh maybe they will at least give us a weekend event

bungusmaximus · Mar 10, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Not just gvg pl0x.

JR · Mar 10, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I don't know much about gwen expansion but the whining on gwonline about the overpowered-ness of ursan blessing is basically proof that a bunch of twats are responsible for the game design. They are even making shit thats too strong in PVE when all you needed was protective spirit, healing breeze(with spellbreaker occasionally) and spiteful spirit to get rich.

Not that I really know anything about ursan/PvE, but people whining on a forum is generally not a good indication of a bad design decision. There were endless threads on GWO about PvE characters should have gear advantages over PvP characters.

Just because there is a group of people on GWO who don't like ursan does not mean your average PvE player would necessarily agree with them. That said, this is pure speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I have one other game that I play regular at the mo. It is MTW2. The game series from shogun has been awesome, but to be honest there has been more than one mod where the modded game is significantly better than the original released version and the most recent patched version. Games companies should not be outclassed by amateur modders.

That's idiotic. It's very easy to improve on something that already exists. Modders can develop at their leisure, without worrying about costs or deadlines. There is no reason why a modder couldn't develop something better than the base product they are working from. Companies like Epic and Bethesda support and encourage their mod communities for this reason.

Just because someone isn't in the games industry doesn't mean they aren't good enough to be. I worked in the UT mod community for 5 years along side people who were amazingly talented, but only interested in it as a hobby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

It is the same thing here in guildwars, Ensign outclasses the entire development team when it comes to game balance and I could have done better myself if I didn't know shit about the game.

Try developing 6 classes, each with a hundred or so skills. Make the skills interesting, varied, and well balanced. That is an absolutely huge task, and Anet initially did a brilliant job of it. I am not going to try and defend balance decisions Factions onward, but again it comes down to improving something that is already there.

twicky_kid · Mar 10, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Try developing 6 classes, each with a hundred or so skills. Make the skills interesting, varied, and well balanced. That is an absolutely huge task, and Anet initially did a brilliant job of it. I am not going to try and defend balance decisions Factions onward, but again it comes down to improving something that is already there.

Anet did improve on something that was already there. They took a lot of concept ideas of MTG, translated into a game, and it was great.

Then factions comes and they break away from the MTG model. This is when things started going bad. I can understand trying things new to experiment. That's all fine....when it work. How many times did Anet make changes that really worked?

What bothers me the most is they had a simple model to follow and have absolute control to make changes anywhere in the game yet the foul it up at every step.

JR · Mar 10, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Anet did improve on something that was already there. They took a lot of concept ideas of MTG, translated into a game, and it was great.

Then factions comes and they break away from the MTG model. This is when things started going bad.

Could you elaborate on that a little? I've never really played M:TG and only have a basic grasp of the rules, so I don't quite understand the comparison - or more to the point how Prophecies was like M:TG but Factions wasn't.

DarkNecrid · Mar 10, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Could you elaborate on that a little? I've never really played M:TG and only have a basic grasp of the rules, so I don't quite understand the comparison - or more to the point how Prophecies was like M:TG but Factions wasn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky

This is the one lesson that GW never learned from MTG.

MTG only survived BECAUSE it splits up its expansions. I hate the argument "We don't need to split up the small player base even more."

This is flawed in so many ways. Mainly that it will not split up the player base but offer more options. More options less boredom. Many MTG players play in more than 1 tournament format.

Same will happen here. Some players will like the expansions. Some will like the core only. Everyone will eventually switch between them.

You get tired of one format you go play the other one. Unlike HA vs GvG the game mechanics are the same no matter what format you are in. Comparing core gvg to the expansions is apples and oranges.

Core was completely focused on team mobility, the flag stand being 80% of the win or loss, and positioning mattered. I'd love to play that game again and the reason so many other players left when it went away.

The best thing that GW can do is this:

1. Have an AT on the weekends with restrictions of what skills/expansions can be used.
ATs on the weekends give the avg working people a chance to play and get rewards. It will also give the game a great flavor with team builds because of skill/expansion restrictions.

2. Reset the ladder and have a ladder season again.
This is for the hardcore players that loved the season ladder and had time to grind it. More teams will play this format allowing short gvg que times.

3. Add draft team builds to the game already. You've had this idea up in the air since Prophocies. Instead of implementing it into the game players created a program to perform the draft and construct the teams. I've done it a few times and gave up because it took HOURS to find enough players then do the draft. The actual draft cost the most time. Anet's been sitting on a gold mine format for years and won't get off their asses to make it happen in game.

This will appeal to both kinds of players. Will Anet do it? Probably not the solution is too simple for them. They always have to have some complicated solution that messes more stuff up than it fixes.

There ya go.

twicky_kid · Mar 10, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Could you elaborate on that a little? I've never really played M:TG and only have a basic grasp of the rules, so I don't quite understand the comparison.

MTG started with Alpha. Then the expansion was Beta. Latter more sets were added as the game grew.

What became a big issue is the shear power of the Alpha and Beta. MTG had maxed itself out with its first 2 sets. It did not become an issue to the player because they loved the cards, ect..... But on the business side there was no reason for players to buy the new cards because Alpha and Beta were so strong. This also became a very big problem to balance the game in future sets because of the power old cards had.

WotC decided to add a new tournament format called Type 2. Only the new editions within the same blockwere allowed in T2. All other sets were allowed in Unlimited, extended, and other formats. Blocks are defined as a core set + 2 expansions. When a new core set hits its final expansion the previous core set and 2 expansions roll out of T2 (no longer allowed).

What this allowed the game to do is have a future. Instead of having to change printings and mechanics on cards the Block would simply rotate out and wouldn't be allowed in T2 anymore. It would still be playable in Unlimited, extended, and other formats. If MTG had never introduced T2 the game would have never progressed. Its been the #1 TCC game for over 10 years now in a market where TCC games come and go within in months.

Because of that simple design of tournament rules MTG did not have to change any old cards and allowed them creativity with new cards. You can make fun cards that would not affect the tournament and serious play while also making cards that would interact with old cards well. The new sets always had some new mechanic that synergized with the rest of the set within the same block. This is the one lesson Anet missed. MTG stuck around as long as it did because of this simple tournament structure. You cannot let new mechanics mix with old mechanics and not expect players to not abuse something. Restricting skills and expansions that can be used will fix every problem that has haunted GW for years.

pah01 · Mar 10, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

MTG started with Alpha. Then the expansion was Beta. Latter more sets were added as the game grew.

What became a big issue is the shear power of the Alpha and Beta. MTG had maxed itself out with its first 2 sets. It did not become an issue to the player because they loved the cards, ect..... But on the business side there was no reason for players to buy the new cards because Alpha and Beta were so strong. This also became a very big problem to balance the game in future sets because of the power old cards had.

WotC decided to add a new tournament format called Type 2. Only the new editions within the same blockwere allowed in T2. All other sets were allowed in Unlimited, extended, and other formats. Blocks are defined as a core set + 2 expansions. When a new core set hits its final expansion the previous core set and 2 expansions roll out of T2 (no longer allowed).

What this allowed the game to do is have a future. Instead of having to change printings and mechanics on cards the Block would simply rotate out and wouldn't be allowed in T2 anymore. It would still be playable in Unlimited, extended, and other formats. If MTG had never introduced T2 the game would have never progressed. Its been the #1 TCC game for over 10 years now in a market where TCC games come and go within in months.

Because of that simple design of tournament rules MTG did not have to change any old cards and allowed them creativity with new cards. You can make fun cards that would not affect the tournament and serious play while also making cards that would interact with old cards well. The new sets always had some new mechanic that synergized with the rest of the set within the same block. This is the one lesson Anet missed. MTG stuck around as long as it did because of this simple tournament structure. You cannot let new mechanics mix with old mechanics and not expect players to not abuse something. Restricting skills and expansions that can be used will fix every problem that has haunted GW for years.

The problem is then that the old set ie

rophecies +core is so much better.

Joe

twicky_kid · Mar 10, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

The problem is then that the old set ie

rophecies +core is so much better.

Joe

To some people, yes. Most of the people that like prophecies only are the ones that were here during that time. Prophecies was a superior game from a strategic standpoint. Skills didn't matter as much back then (with the exception of monks).

There are people that like the gimmicky stuff from the expansions. Some like balance + expansion classes.

It would give us much more options with less nerfs to skills. Would also increase the skill level of the game. When you play with restrictions is shows true skill. Hell anyone can hunt with an automatic rifle. The skilled hunter goes in with 1 bullet.

Takida · Mar 10, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

It's very easy to improve on something that already exists.

Anet didnt show so.

pah01 · Mar 10, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Not that I really know anything about ursan/PvE, but people whining on a forum is generally not a good indication of a bad design decision. There were endless threads on GWO about PvE characters should have gear advantages over PvP characters.

Just because there is a group of people on GWO who don't like ursan does not mean your average PvE player would necessarily agree with them. That said, this is pure speculation.

[[EDIT just for JR:The words I chosen here obviously meant that I had not read your post. And I obviously didn't agree that your comments were unfounded]] What you just said is pure speculation. I mean when do PVE carebears whine about some skill being overpowered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

That's idiotic. It's very easy to improve on something that already exists. Modders can develop at their leisure, without worrying about costs or deadlines. There is no reason why a modder couldn't develop something better than the base product they are working from. Companies like Epic and Bethesda support and encourage their mod communities for this reason.

Just because someone isn't in the games industry doesn't mean they aren't good enough to be. I worked in the UT mod community for 5 years along side people who were amazingly talented, but only interested in it as a hobby.

Many hardcore Total War players who are I suppose the equilavent of the top level gvg community have been very very disappointed in the overall quality of the finished MTW2 and RTW products. This was in terms of the number of bugged units, buildings not giving the bonuses they were supposed to, campaign AI, battle AI. As I said mods were significantly better in almost every department than CA's finished product.

edit: The failures of CA are of the same sort of failure of anet. They failed to produce a game that was really good on "gameplay" terms. They had a great battle engine and nice graphical quality but on balance and ai issues they failed. Similarly Anet fail completely in balance and in the department of "lets make our game worse to free up server space" they succeed in that regard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Try developing 6 classes, each with a hundred or so skills. Make the skills interesting, varied, and well balanced. That is an absolutely huge task, and Anet initially did a brilliant job of it. I am not going to try and defend balance decisions Factions onward, but again it comes down to improving something that is already there.

Not really. Their initial Job took months to fix overpowered builds from ether renewal to spirit spam to air spike to gale to iway(which got multiple nerfs lol) to double orders etc. They never fixed soul reaping then either.

Once that was done they proceeded to introduce more stupid shit like teleporting ninjas and spirit poopers.

Then to complete the utter rape they gave us RAO, energising finale, avatars and two new professions that were just as bad as the previous two for removing skill from play.

After this they completely ass-raped all competitive play so that the entire top-end community just frittered away.

Anet probably wouldn't want to hire ensign in case he might make them fix their potentially great pvp game.

Joe

JR · Mar 10, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Just because there is a group of people on GWO who don't like ursan does not mean your average PvE player would necessarily agree with them.That said, this is pure speculation.

What you just said is pure speculation.

I stopped reading there.

Relambrien · Mar 11, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Someone's going to sig that somewhere, I guarantee it.

erk · Mar 11, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Many of the Core and Prophecies skills have had nerfs and buffs since the other chapters were released, it may not be possible to recreate the balanced feel of a couple of years ago even if you wanted to.

I don't know if you read any of the PvE skill threads here, and on other forums/wikis, but PvE players, who represent the majority of A.nets paying customers, tend to be quite vocal about the Nerfs when they are obviously PvP driven. The end result of that is feedback back to A.net eventually, and we may not get the optimal PvP effect from the skill balances.

A.net missed a golden sales opportunity to release a substantial set of PvP only skills that could have been well balanced for PvP without interfering with the PvE players. I would have liked to see the "Balthazar" skill set that was either unlockable with faction or purchasable in PvP packs that only worked for PvP characters. (Sells more slots!) Perhaps GW2 will have more PvE <-> PvP skills isolation.