Curse

pah01 · Mar 19, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Hey,

I think the numbers on a few monk skills are a little off what the should be.

I think its fair to say that the current situation for monks is actually fairly good,
in terms of balance.

There are two skills that I think need to be looked at to bring them up to being really viable once again, so that woh and rc are not going to be considered the must have skill choices.

Light of deliverance

The recharge is a bit much at 10 seconds. I think that 7 or 8 seems about right. The amount healed can stay the same IMO as its current incarnation. I do however think that a 10 sec recharge LOD is too weak.

Shield of Deflection

Same here really, I think a lot can happen in 10 seconds. I think a recharge in the order of 6-8 seconds should be more reasonable with its duration cut.

The idea here with buffing the recharges slightly is to get them into the range where people may actually dcide to run them, while not returning completely to the last metas sod/lod backline.

Mending Touch

Needs to be buffed and nerfed at the same time. 1...2...3 conditions with breakpoints at say 8 and 13 prot. However this should not be done unless sins 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 bars are destroyed for good.

Guardian

@four seconds recharge it is quite hard to not use this skill on the melee's next target as soon as it is recharged, three seconds gives you some leeway IMO.

Healers Covenant

The interaction with patient spirit etc needs fixing.

Blessed Light

I think 3 sec recharge is too short, as I think its important for this skill to have a strong synergy with deny hexes. Needs to be around 5-6 secs.

In its current incarnation @10 energy its not going to compete with the woh/rc and the two above skills that I desired to see buffed slightly.

@5 energy would blessed light be too strong. I think so. but not if accompanied by a healing decrease. I reckon @14 divine it would need to be around a 96 or so heal not incl. its own divine favour bonus.

I am not one of these people who want to see variety for variety's sake but giving the monk 5 viable elites does allow for different choices to be made throughout an entire build

Healers Boon

Reducing the cast time of healing prayers is what IMO keeps heal party of non HB bars right now. A 1 sec cast HP is ridiculous on a HB bar. Make it so that that "healing prayers spells which target an ally receive a cast time decrease"

Heal Party

Now you can make this skill 10e 1c 4r.

Thats all my little fiddles for now.

Joe

Captain Robo · Mar 19, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

most of your suggestions are improbable, nonsensical, and just flat-out stupid. also it's not your job to balance skills, and you've made it clearly evident why.

i'll let everyone else explain why~

You have no idea what you're talking about.

LoD and SoD don't need to be touched. SoD is fine, LoD is just too painful to deal with. It's gone forever.

The other changes aren't bad.

I, for one, would LOVE to see Blessed Light be the cornerstone of "balanced" monk builds, because its a freaking amazing skill that gets overlooked because of how RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GOing good WoH has become.

The factor which prevents it from seeing use is its large cost. Reduce the cost and the amount healed, and suddenly it's extremely good. You can still run it with Gift of Health for your big heal.

Guardian, HC, HP, MT, Yes

HB No.

All I have to say.

pah01 · Mar 19, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

most of your suggestions are improbable, nonsensical, and just flat-out stupid. also it's not your job to balance skills, and you've made it clearly evident why.

i'll let everyone else explain why~

Perhaps you don't want others to know how bad you are by failing to back your statement up. Go back to gwonline and PVE.

@Captain Robo. As of now I think LOD and SOD are not quite playable. I don't want them to be the dominant backline, but I do want to see them more often, the changes I suggested are to cause exactly that.

As for changing HP, you cannot buff it w/o nerfing healers boon in some way.
I only want mending touch to be destroyed for splittable chars like rangers, if other split templates that particularly assassin ones that are broken ae not also destroyed.

Master Ketsu · Mar 19, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

most of your suggestions are improbable, nonsensical, and just flat-out stupid. also it's not your job to balance skills, and you've made it clearly evident why.

i'll let everyone else explain why~

Fail. A person who knows what they are talking about but can't muster the capacity to say anything outside the lines of "lol u suck scrub ur balance ideas are terible lol 111" is no better then the scrub they are criticizing. Either state the reason behind your opinions, or shut it.

And in this case, the OP isn't even that much of a scrub. Some of his ideas are viable. For example: Many people -including many good players- find the fact that mending touch can remove 2 condition's at even the lowest of attributes to be a huge problem in the meta when it comes to self condition removal ( its better then the next best self condition removal by far ). Scaling the amount of conditions removed on attribute points would not be a bad idea.

la_cabra_de_vida · Mar 19, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I wouldnt mind seeing Sod's old duration with an 7 or 8 second recharge, I think 10 was a tad to much. My idea for blight has been:

Blessed Light (E)

5 3/4 3

Heal target ally for 10...114...140 Health and remove one Condition and one Hex. If a condition or hex is removed, you lose 5 energy.

You can mess with the healing amount or put the recharge to 4 seconds i guess to even it out.

Captain Robo · Mar 19, 2008, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

I wouldnt mind seeing Sod's old duration with an 7 or 8 second recharge, I think 10 was a tad to much. My idea for blight has been:

Blessed Light (E)

5 3/4 3

Heal target ally for 10...114...140 Health and remove one Condition and one Hex. If BOTH a condition and hex are removed, you lose 5 energy.

You can mess with the healing amount or put the recharge to 4 seconds i guess to even it out.

fix'd

12chars

twicky_kid · Mar 19, 2008, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

@Captain Robo. As of now I think LOD and SOD are not quite playable. I don't want them to be the dominant backline, but I do want to see them more often, the changes I suggested are to cause exactly that.

I don't think there is a way to buff those 2 without making them dominant. You're talking about a temp god mode and the most efficient healing spell ever. Also neither work well in a split meta. Which was the entire reason when they were used in def webs both teams stayed at the stand.

Mending touch is a necessary evil. More conditions have been added to the game allowing more condition layers to peal through. With things like Yaa and crip slash its something that has to be in the game for those skills to remain the way they are. Since it hasn't been changed (maybe a small recharge nerf) since it got here don't hold your breathe.

la_cabra_de_vida · Mar 19, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

fix'd

12chars

I dont know if you saw i put the initial energy cost at 5? But at 5 energy, a spell healing for about 150 and losing a condition or hex is very imbalanced.

Captain Robo · Mar 19, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Is it really any more degenerate than dismiss condition or cure hex?

I'd push the recharge up to about 6 seconds, that would seem balanced.

la_cabra_de_vida · Mar 19, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Is it really any more degenerate than dismiss condition or cure hex?

I'd push the recharge up to about 6 seconds, that would seem balanced.

Except this would heal for 50% more, and at 6 second recharge it would be useless.

pah01 · Mar 19, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I don't think there is a way to buff those 2 without making them dominant. You're talking about a temp god mode and the most efficient healing spell ever. Also neither work well in a split meta. Which was the entire reason when they were used in def webs both teams stayed at the stand.

I don't think this is quite true, RC has always been strong but I do not ever remember it being buffed or nerfed. It has just come in and out of use depending on the meta.

LOD at 7 or 8 secs would compete with WOH but remember how good woh currently is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Mending touch is a necessary evil. More conditions have been added to the game allowing more condition layers to peal through. With things like Yaa and crip slash its something that has to be in the game for those skills to remain the way they are. Since it hasn't been changed (maybe a small recharge nerf) since it got here don't hold your breathe.

Mending touch keeps YAA out of the game IMO. Mending touch is a problem, but I agree with it being a necessary evil but for entirely different reasons.

Joe

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 19, 2008, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Mending touch needs another drawback if two conditions are removed. Longer recharge or more energy... something.

Guardian at 3 sounds like a plan.

I would also like to see blessed come back. Its a great skill thats being outshined by greater skills.

pah01 · Mar 19, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Mending touch needs another drawback if two conditions are removed. Longer recharge or more energy... something.

Guardian at 3 sounds like a plan.

I would also like to see blessed come back. Its a great skill thats being outshined by greater skills.

I think you are confusing mending touch with mend ailment.

Joe

Anti Oath · Mar 19, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Mending Touch
Needs to be buffed and nerfed at the same time. 1...2...3 conditions with breakpoints at say 8 and 13 prot. However this should not be done unless sins 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 bars are destroyed for good.

Essential for splits and to me, it's one of the few skills that have multi-purposes. It's made for clearing off cover hexes. As simple as that. Raising the removal depending on attribute spread seems like to much in the long run. I don't like the fact this is affected by Expertise (down to 2 energy at 14), which energy doesn't seem like to big of a selling point for rangers.

I think the best thing for this skill would be to make it more spammable, but make it harder to spam. Increasing the Energy Cost to 10 (4 energy at 14) and decreasing the Recharge to 3. To compensate I'd increase the healing to somewhere between 15...75. This would really limit its use on warrior, I know that, but this is just a suggestion. There could also be a "payback" effect added to the skill. 5 energy back if there are any remaining conditions.

Syron · Mar 19, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Light of deliverance
I don't think this should be buffed again, as it already has its uses in dual lod-hybrid backlines.

Shield of Deflection
8 sec recharge/duration is ok.

Guardian
I'd rather buff SoA to 8 sec recharge. Guardian is still the best small prot

Blessed Light
This is what is most important to me.

10 energy is just too much compared to other elites, but 5 energy for a good heal and a fast recharging hex and condition remove is way too good.....

So, my suggestion is to revert recharge and healing amount to its original state (115 or less @14 divine, 5r), 5 energy and a clause "if a hex _and_ a condition is removed, you lose 5 energy".
It would be less efficient at healing than woh and doesn't save energy when conditions and hexes are removed.
You'll want to still take dismiss along, because using your 5 sec recharge chunk heal as your only condition remove might not always be a good idea.

With GoH and Deny Hexes this could be an interesting bar.

Edit: tbh, besides BL there isn't much need for fixing monks imho

Shendaar · Mar 19, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

8 seconds recharge for both SoD and LoD is as low as I would go. SoD's duration should be 5-6 seconds imo.

I think Guardian is fine. Look into SoA and SH first. 8 seconds recharge on SoA would probably do the trick. SH I'm not too sure, but 10 seconds would probably be a good start.

I also agree with the 5s recharge BL with a +5 energy cost if you remove both a condition and a hex. It would be a solid bar compression skill without(hopefully) being a must have.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 19, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Light of deliverance

The recharge is a bit much at 10 seconds. I think that 7 or 8 seems about right. The amount healed can stay the same IMO as its current incarnation. I do however think that a 10 sec recharge LOD is too weak.

Agreed, however if you do this it needs to be earshot range.
Everyone would just run dual LoD monks with mantra of conc otherwise and no one would ever die.

Quote:

Shield of Deflection

Same here really, I think a lot can happen in 10 seconds. I think a recharge in the order of 6-8 seconds should be more reasonable with its duration cut.

The idea here with buffing the recharges slightly is to get them into the range where people may actually dcide to run them, while not returning completely to the last metas sod/lod backline.

Disagree, SoD is fine as it is, I don't like the skill much period the cast on it is much too fast for such an insane effect, big prots like SB and PS need to come in before most of the damage to really do anything, if this thing lands before someone dies regardless of the target's health, unless a shatter is readily available, there's pretty much no way the target will die.

Quote:

Mending Touch

Needs to be buffed and nerfed at the same time. 1...2...3 conditions with breakpoints at say 8 and 13 prot. However this should not be done unless sins 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 bars are destroyed for good.

I don't really think it matters at this point, I don't see old eprod flaggers making a comeback or ranger bars drastically change because of this.

I'd much rather see antidote sig remove cripple on top of what it currently does with a slightly longer recharge, and maybe an extra second on blackout at lower spec (say 7-8 dom 5s blackout rather than 6 dom 4s and 10 dom 5s).

Quote:

Guardian

@four seconds recharge it is quite hard to not use this skill on the melee's next target as soon as it is recharged, three seconds gives you some leeway IMO.

Guardian is fine as it is, buff SoA and SH to make other small prots more viable instead.

Quote:

Healers Covenant

The interaction with patient spirit etc needs fixing.

It doesn't really bother me, but I guess it's more of an arena thing.

Quote:

Blessed Light

I think 3 sec recharge is too short, as I think its important for this skill to have a strong synergy with deny hexes. Needs to be around 5-6 secs.

You're missing the point of the skill, BL is pure bar compression, it frees up an extra slot on your bar by not requiring a hex removal, outside of speccing hex builds why would you ever run BL + deny?

Quote:

In its current incarnation @10 energy its not going to compete with the woh/rc and the two above skills that I desired to see buffed slightly.

@5 energy would blessed light be too strong. I think so. but not if accompanied by a healing decrease. I reckon @14 divine it would need to be around a 96 or so heal not incl. its own divine favour bonus.

I agree, this is something that I've been suggesting to izzy for a while now.

Quote:

Healers Boon

Reducing the cast time of healing prayers is what IMO keeps heal party of non HB bars right now. A 1 sec cast HP is ridiculous on a HB bar. Make it so that that "healing prayers spells which target an ally receive a cast time decrease"

Heal Party

Now you can make this skill 10e 1c 4r.

Also something that I've been suggesting to izzy.

twicky_kid · Mar 19, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I don't think this is quite true, RC has always been strong but I do not ever remember it being buffed or nerfed. It has just come in and out of use depending on the meta.

LOD at 7 or 8 secs would compete with WOH but remember how good woh currently is.

RC is completely conditional for its heal and cannot target yourself. Its only as powerful as its drawbacks are very steep. RC cannot compete in a split and is only as good as your other monk because you are completely relying on him or the draw condition. WoH doesn't have those restrictions and is very powerful bar compression for splits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Mending touch keeps YAA out of the game IMO. Mending touch is a problem, but I agree with it being a necessary evil but for entirely different reasons.

Joe

And if mending touch didn't keep those things out of the meta what would you do against them? Crip shot/slash would be able to pin you down forever. Without making any changes to crip slash and YAA I don't think it would be wise changing mending touch atm. At least while the split meta is still popular.

Syntonic · Mar 19, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I wouldn't mind seeing Guardian's recharge dropped down by a second. The recharge increase has only really affected the lower arenas and it's somewhat negligible due to the current HC etc. meta (then again, it's not like every group is running HC.) I'm not sure if buffing SoA is such a great idea though since it has a rather precarious balance with shielding hands at the moment while buffing both skills might prove to be equally detrimental.

SoD doesn't really need a buff. People complain about the skill as it is. Lowering the duration and recharge would be a bit too much to deal with due to how it's used. I don't have strong feelings over reducing LoD's recharge but I know someone crunched raw numbers somewhere supporting the claim it should be reduced but I do share concerns over the spell range however.

Keithark · Mar 19, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Why is having mending touch remove 2 conditions a bad thing? I don't understand that because you can basically apply 2 conditions at the same time every 2 seconds with cripshot +poision) mend removes 2 conditions so seems balanced enough to me. Flame if you must but somewhere in the flame please answer my noobish question